For Muslims: Is Muhammad the last Prophet from God?

[firedragon]

The appearance of His Manifestation is mentioned explicitly in the Qurʼán, without any need for commentary or interpretation: “And thy Lord shall come and the angels rank on rank” (89:22) )Abdul-Baha)

50 And now have we brought them the Book: with knowledge have we explained it; a guidance and a mercy to them that believe. What have they to wait for now but its interpretation? When its interpretation shall come, they who aforetime were oblivious of it shall say, ‘The Prophets of our Lord did indeed bring the truth;

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah brought the only true interpretation of the Quran from God mentioned above. Human knowledge and learning can never compare to Divine Knowledge.

Another issue is it is neither necessary nor advantageous to know Arabic or even be learned to recognise a new Manifestation of God. In the days of Christ His disciples were not learned men and Muhammad’s first followers did not possess the entire Quran yet were able to recognise, without any scripture , that He was sent by God.

A pure and sincere heart is what is required to be able to ‘see God’ and recognise His Messengers. Humbling ourselves before Him is far more important than all human knowledge.

This passage from Baha’u’llah explains the truly knowledgeable person is one who humbles Himself before God. How many ‘unlettered’ accepted Christ and Muhammad but the learned in that time and today have turned away from God merely because they consider themselves ‘knowledgeable’. The criteria has always been a ‘pure heart’.

“Consider, how can he that faileth in the day of God’s Revelation to attain unto the grace of the “Divine Presence” and to recognize His Manifestation, be justly called learned, though he may have spent aeons in the pursuit of knowledge, and acquired all the limited and material learning of men? It is surely evident that he can in no wise be regarded as possessed of true knowledge. Whereas, the most unlettered of all men, if he be honored with this supreme distinction, he verily is accounted as one of those divinely learned men whose knowledge is of God; for such a man hath attained the acme of knowledge, and hath reached the furthermost summit of learning.”

Baha'u'llah

That's absolutely a red herring.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I am aiming to show that Muhammad was not the last prophet of God to Muslims, not more than that. Of course many of you know that I have a particular prophet in mind, but I will not seek to prove that that prophet is the next prophet of God to Muslims. I carefully gleaned the following from a Moojan Momen book. The Qur'an quotes, some of the reasoning behind presenting these are his, and I carefully checked out if what he was presenting was valid or a stretch. As this is in General Religious Debates anyone can join in, but I encourage Muslims to do so.

40. Muhammad is not
The father of any
Of your men, but (he is)
The Apostle of God,
And the Seal of the Prophets:
And God has full knowledge
Of all things.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 33.40

I will not dispute the meaning of this verse at first, we can argue that along the way, but start with this verse from the Qur'an:

Then is it only a part of the
Book That ye believe in,
And do ye reject the rest?
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 2.85

This portion of that verse says to me that we need to consider the whole of the Qur'an in order to come to a logical conclusion.

34. To every People is a term. Appointed: when their term Is reached, not an hour Can they cause delay, Nor (an hour) can they Advance (it in anticipation).

35. O ye Children of Adam! Whenever there come to you Apostles from amongst you, Rehearsing My Signs unto you, Those who are righteous And mend (their lives), — On them shall be no fear Nor shall they grieve.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 7.34

The original Arabic translated as people is I opine is a religious community. Apostles rehearsing signs can also be translated as Messengers. This translation is from Yusuf Ali.

Also in the Qur'an it is stated;

47. To every people (was sent)
An Apostle: when their Apostle
Comes (before them), the matter
Will be judged between them
With justice, and they
Will not be wronged.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 10.47

Also translated by Yusuf Ali. All these passage are translated by Yusuf Ali. What this partially establishes is the “people” means “religious community”, and “Apostle” means “Messenger”. It also says that in the past one of these Messengers was sent to every “religious community” in the world. The reference to “the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.” means to me that the religious community this Messenger comes to will be judged by their response to this Messenger in a just way.

Also notice this verse:

67. To every People have We
Appointed rites and ceremonies
Which they must follow:
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 22.67

What else but a religious community would have appointed rites and ceremonies? So people translated by Yusuf Ali means religious community. So to return back to the original verses:

34. To every People is a term Appointed: when their term Is reached, not an hour Can they cause delay, Nor (an hour) can they Advance (it in anticipation).

35. O ye Children of Adam! Whenever there come to you Apostles from amongst you, Rehearsing My Signs unto you, Those who are righteous And mend (their lives), — On them shall be no fear Nor shall they grieve.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 7.34

For every religious community is a term appointed with no exception. I assert that this includes the Islamic community. Also “the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.” I derive from Qur'an 10:47.

I also am of the opinion that the new Messenger comes with a new holy book and a new teaching confirming part of the teachings of the Qur'an, but also abrogating part of it.

38. We did send apostles Before thee, and appointed For them wives and children: And it was never the part Of an apostle to bring a Sign Except as God permitted (Or commanded). For each period Is a Book (revealed).

39. God doth blot out Or confirm what He pleaseth: With Him is The Mother of the Book.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 13.38

There is no limit of how many Words of God could be revealed.

27. And if all the trees
On earth were pens
And the Ocean (were ink),
With seven Oceans behind it
To add to its (supply),
Yet would not the Words
Of God be exhausted
(In the writing): for God
Is Exalted in power,
Full of Wisdom.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 31.27

God has established a covenant that whenever a Messenger of God comes, human beings should accept that Messenger and help him:

81. Behold! God took
The Covenant of the Prophets,
Saying: “I give you
A Book and Wisdom;
Then comes to you
An Apostle, confirming
What is with you;
Do ye believe in him
And render him help.”
God said: “Do ye agree,
And take this my Covenant
As binding on you?”
They said: “We agree.”
He said: “Then bear witness,
And I am with you
Among the witnesses.”
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 3.81

The Qur'an confirms that this covenant was taken with all of the messengers, including Muhammad.

7. And remember We took
From the Prophets their
Covenant:
As (We did) from thee:
From Noah, Abraham, Moses,
And Jesus the son of Mary:
We took from them
A solemn Covenant:
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 33.7

There will always be a need for Messengers of God:

95. Say, “If there were settled,
On earth, angels walking about
In peace and quiet, We should
Certainly have sent them
Down from the heavens
An angel for an apostle.”
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 17.95

89:22

 

[Truthseeker]

It's absolutely wrong.

No point going further brother. It's beneath anyone who knows anything about the Qur'an or the language. So let's leave it at that. I respectfully withdraw from that discussion.

Well, according to Momen for all the three quotes (I didn't mention this before) the word people in all three people the original word is Ummah. To refresh your memory those three are:

34. To every People is a term. Appointed: when their term Is reached, not an hour Can they cause delay, Nor (an hour) can they Advance (it in anticipation).

35. O ye Children of Adam! Whenever there come to you Apostles from amongst you, Rehearsing My Signs unto you, Those who are righteous And mend (their lives), — On them shall be no fear Nor shall they grieve.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 7.34

47. To every people (was sent)
An Apostle: when their Apostle
Comes (before them), the matter
Will be judged between them
With justice, and they
Will not be wronged.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 10.47

67. To every People have We
Appointed rites and ceremonies
Which they must follow:
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 22.67

Momen knows about the language.

 

[Truthseeker]

That's irrelevant. Who cares about that? This is just a red herring.

My whole post was to show you that Christianity believes they have the last prophet and present verses to show that, and in addition there are not verses as clear as you are demanding here that there will be a next prophet. Furthermore there is this:

In the Qur'an there were numerous stories about how people rejected past messengers, this verse says why those verses were revealed:

34. We have already sent down
To you verses making things
Clear, an illustration from (the story
Of) people who passed away
Before you, and an admonition
For those who fear (God).
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 24.34

Also these verses say that after in the Qur'an in a Surah of Hud there are several stories of the past where a prophet was rejected and the dire consequences for them when they were rejected.

100. These are some of the stories Of communities which We Relate unto thee: of them Some are standing, and some Have been mown down(By the sickle of time.

101. It was not We that wronged them: They wronged their own souls: The deities, other than God, Whom they invoked, profited them No whit when there issued The decree of thy Lord: Nor did they add aught (To their lot) but perdition!

102. Such is the chastisement Of thy Lord when He chastises Communities in the midst of Their wrong: grievous, indeed, And severe is His chastisement.

103. In that is a Sign For those who fear The Penalty of the Hereafter: That is a Day for which mankind Will be gathered together: That will be a Day Of Testimony.

104. Nor shall We delay it But for a term appointed.

105. The day it arrives, No soul shall speak Except by His leave:Of those (gathered) someWill be wretched and some Will be blessed.

106. Those who are wretched Shall be in the Fire: There will be for them Therein (nothing but) the heaving Of sighs and sobs:

107. They will dwell therein For all the time that The heavens and the earth Endure, except as thy Lord Willeth: for thy Lord Is the (sure) Accomplisher Of what He planneth.

108. And those who are blessed Shall be in the Garden: They will dwell therein For all the time that The heavens and the earth Endure, except as thy Lord Willeth: a gift without break.

109. Be not then in doubt As to what these men Worship. They worship nothing But what their fathers worshipped Before (them): but verily
We shall pay them back
(In full) their portion
Without (the least) abatement.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 11:100

Also these similar hadith cited in the two most reliable hadith collections.

Abu Sa’id al-Khudri reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You would tread the same path as was trodden by those before you inch by inch and step by step so much so that if they had entered into the hole of the lizard, you would follow them in this also. We said: Allah’s Messenger, do you mean Jews and Christians (by your words) “those before you”? He said: Who else (than those two religious groups)?
Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj, "Sahih Muslim (Book 33-43)"

The Prophet said, “You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure, you would follow them.” We said, “O Alláh’s Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?” He said, “Whom else?”
Imam Muhammad al-Bukhari, "Ṣaḥíḥ al-Bukhárí",

These seems to indicate that Muslims will follow the Jews and Christians in all the mistakes they made. Obviously this would include not recognizing the next prophet.

 

[firedragon]

Well, according to Momen for all the three quotes (I didn't mention this before) the word people in all three people the original word is Ummah. To refresh your memory those three are:

34. To every People is a term. Appointed: when their term Is reached, not an hour Can they cause delay, Nor (an hour) can they Advance (it in anticipation).

35. O ye Children of Adam! Whenever there come to you Apostles from amongst you, Rehearsing My Signs unto you, Those who are righteous And mend (their lives), — On them shall be no fear Nor shall they grieve.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 7.34

47. To every people (was sent)
An Apostle: when their Apostle
Comes (before them), the matter
Will be judged between them
With justice, and they
Will not be wronged.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 10.47

67. To every People have We
Appointed rites and ceremonies
Which they must follow:
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 22.67

Momen knows about the language.

Yeah. But even Momen does not say "religious community" so this is irrelevant to that particular conversation.

 

[firedragon]

My whole post was to show you that Christianity believes they have the last prophet and present verses to show that, and in addition there are not verses as clear as you are demanding here that there will be a next prophet. Furthermore there is this:

In the Qur'an there were numerous stories about how people rejected past messengers, this verse says why those verses were revealed:

34. We have already sent down
To you verses making things
Clear, an illustration from (the story
Of) people who passed away
Before you, and an admonition
For those who fear (God).
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 24.34

Also these verses say that after in the Qur'an in a Surah of Hud there are several stories of the past where a prophet was rejected and the dire consequences for them when they were rejected.

100. These are some of the stories Of communities which We Relate unto thee: of them Some are standing, and some Have been mown down(By the sickle of time.

101. It was not We that wronged them: They wronged their own souls: The deities, other than God, Whom they invoked, profited them No whit when there issued The decree of thy Lord: Nor did they add aught (To their lot) but perdition!

102. Such is the chastisement Of thy Lord when He chastises Communities in the midst of Their wrong: grievous, indeed, And severe is His chastisement.

103. In that is a Sign For those who fear The Penalty of the Hereafter: That is a Day for which mankind Will be gathered together: That will be a Day Of Testimony.

104. Nor shall We delay it But for a term appointed.

105. The day it arrives, No soul shall speak Except by His leave:Of those (gathered) someWill be wretched and some Will be blessed.

106. Those who are wretched Shall be in the Fire: There will be for them Therein (nothing but) the heaving Of sighs and sobs:

107. They will dwell therein For all the time that The heavens and the earth Endure, except as thy Lord Willeth: for thy Lord Is the (sure) Accomplisher Of what He planneth.

108. And those who are blessed Shall be in the Garden: They will dwell therein For all the time that The heavens and the earth Endure, except as thy Lord Willeth: a gift without break.

109. Be not then in doubt As to what these men Worship. They worship nothing But what their fathers worshipped Before (them): but verily
We shall pay them back
(In full) their portion
Without (the least) abatement.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 11:100

Also these similar hadith cited in the two most reliable hadith collections.

Abu Sa’id al-Khudri reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You would tread the same path as was trodden by those before you inch by inch and step by step so much so that if they had entered into the hole of the lizard, you would follow them in this also. We said: Allah’s Messenger, do you mean Jews and Christians (by your words) “those before you”? He said: Who else (than those two religious groups)?
Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj, "Sahih Muslim (Book 33-43)"

The Prophet said, “You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure, you would follow them.” We said, “O Alláh’s Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?” He said, “Whom else?”
Imam Muhammad al-Bukhari, "Ṣaḥíḥ al-Bukhárí",

These seems to indicate that Muslims will follow the Jews and Christians in all the mistakes they made. Obviously this would include not recognizing the next prophet.

The question was not to preach and give a long winded explanation or apologetic like Christians.

The question was - "You quoted verses that say very clearly "we sent messengers before you". That's explicit. But why can't you bring one explicit verse that says "we will send messengers after you"? Go on. Find one. This is the most important factor for your theology. Find one single explicit verse."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The question was not to preach and give a long winded explanation or apologetic like Christians.

The question was - "You quoted verses that say very clearly "we sent messengers before you". That's explicit. But why can't you bring one explicit verse that says "we will send messengers after you"? Go on. Find one. This is the most important factor for your theology. Find one single explicit verse."

Jesus is a Messenger correct? The Quran says Jesus will return, that logically means that Jesus, a Messenger, will come after Muhammad.

Q (43:61): And indeed, Jesus will be [a sign for] knowledge of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is a straight path.

Q (4:159): And there is none from the People of the Book but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

I already know how you will respond to this.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Jesus is a Messenger correct? The Quran says Jesus will return, that logically means that Jesus, a Messenger, will come after Muhammad.

Q (43:61): And indeed, Jesus will be [a sign for] knowledge of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is a straight path.

Q (4:159): And there is none from the People of the Book but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

I already know how you will respond to this.

Regards Tony

Irrelevant.

 

[Truthseeker]

Yeah. But even Momen does not say "religious community" so this is irrelevant to that particular conversation.

Well, actually he did, though I may not have said so here, and in the context of those three, Ummah in those particular cases meant religious community obviously, but you don't want to accept that. I can understand psychologically why you wouldn't want to accept that. As believers we all resist our beliefs being disproven. You also want to win the argument, and most people are that way.

 

[Truthseeker]

The question was not to preach and give a long winded explanation or apologetic like Christians.

The question was - "You quoted verses that say very clearly "we sent messengers before you". That's explicit. But why can't you bring one explicit verse that says "we will send messengers after you"? Go on. Find one. This is the most important factor for your theology. Find one single explicit verse."

Like I said in my previous post, you psychologically don't want to accept what I said there. I do recognize that the Qur'an doesn't say anywhere ""we will send messengers after you", but you cling to that like a person clings to a lifeboat in the ocean. Demanding that is psychological defense mechanism.

 

[Link]

Like I said in my previous post, you psychologically don't want to accept what I said there. I do recognize that the Qur'an doesn't say anywhere ""we will send messengers after you", but you cling to that like a person clings to a lifeboat in the ocean. Demanding that is psychological defense mechanism.

I would suggest something. To context scope what is nearby before what is further ahead.

That is see mini-context within Surah first, then scope beyond it. In this case, the verse you keep quoting for term, has a context of destructions of people before that. I take it to mean "every (such) people" as opposed to a religious community.

But even say it was what you guys say it means, why can't it mean the end term is day of judgment for umma of Mohammad (s)?

 

[firedragon]

Well, actually he did, though I may not have said so here, and in the context of those three, Ummah in those particular cases meant religious community obviously, but you don't want to accept that. I can understand psychologically why you wouldn't want to accept that. As believers we all resist our beliefs being disproven. You also want to win the argument, and most people are that way.

Don't make adhominem about my psychological intent etc.

Anyway, I gave you an internet source. It seems like though you asked, you didn't go there.

So it's pointless to go any further.

 

[firedragon]

Like I said in my previous post, you psychologically don't want to accept what I said there. I do recognize that the Qur'an doesn't say anywhere ""we will send messengers after you", but you cling to that like a person clings to a lifeboat in the ocean. Demanding that is psychological defense mechanism.

Adhominem.

 

[Truthseeker]

Don't make adhominem about my psychological intent etc.

Anyway, I gave you an internet source. It seems like though you asked, you didn't go there.

So it's pointless to go any further.

You don't want to examine your own motives obviously to see if I said here is true or not. Baha'u'llah said:

31. O SON OF BEING!
Bring thyself to account each day ere thou art summoned to a reckoning; for death, unheralded, shall come upon thee and thou shalt be called to give account for thy deeds.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

 

[firedragon]

You don't want to examine your own motives obviously to see if I said here is true or not. Baha'u'llah said:

31. O SON OF BEING!
Bring thyself to account each day ere thou art summoned to a reckoning; for death, unheralded, shall come upon thee and thou shalt be called to give account for thy deeds.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Ad hominem is not a valid argument. You were given an easily accessible internet source. Just click. But you never responded to that, avoided it, and resorted to adhominem. Think, that what ever you are saying to me here with your ad hominem, I can do the same to you. I can use the exact same words, with your own cut and paste from Bahaullah, to speak about your so called "psychology" like you spoke of. That's not evidence of any sort. It's just ad hominem.

This is beneath you mate. Cheers.

 

[Truthseeker]

Ad hominem is not a valid argument. You were given an easily accessible internet source. Just click. But you never responded to that, avoided it, and resorted to adhominem. Think, that what ever you are saying to me here with your ad hominem, I can do the same to you. I can use the exact same words, with your own cut and paste from Bahaullah, to speak about your so called "psychology" like you spoke of. That's not evidence of any sort. It's just ad hominem.

This is beneath you mate. Cheers.

Show the internet source again. I went back through this thread and couldn't see where it was, and was not aware of an internet source being pointed to somewhere. I am willing to go there.

 

[Link]

Sure. I'll give you the easiest reference on the internet. The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary

You could go to "any" good arabic dictionary. Check under Hamza/Alif, meem, meem. Ummah will mean a community, nation. Subjectively one could call it a religious community. That means as an individual you could call your religious community as "Ummah". Singular. But when it's looked at objectively it will be tribes, nations, people etc. It will have a socio-political context. And it's absolutely objective when you pluralize it. Sorry brother. This notion was absurd when it comes to this particular verse. It's Kulli Ummathin, which is Jamea, which means nations or every nation. Not every religious community. Honestly, you would not believe how far this simple wording has been stretched and I really don't understand why. This was either someone who has no clue of Arabic, or it was done intentionally for what ever reason.

I think the reference is here.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's absolutely a red herring.

The interpretation of the Quran is known only to God.

 

[Link]

The interpretation of the Quran is known only to God.

Why would God reveal a book that humans can't understand?

 

[Truthseeker]

I think the reference is here.

You didn't show me where. I want to know where in this thread, or you could have a link to it yourself.