For Muslims: Is Muhammad the last Prophet from God?

[loverofhumanity]

How do Baha'is interpret that Jesus will come after Muhammad? Since Baha'is believe he won't, but rather that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ in spirit. I understand how Baha'is can do that if it says, "Christ", or the anointed one will come. But if it specifically says Jesus, how do you make that not Jesus, himself, but Baha'u'llah?

I hope you don't do the same thing and say that it doesn't mean "Jesus" when it says "Jesus", but it really means the "spirit" of Jesus. But, then again, how else can you interpret it.

Baha’is do not interpret scriptures especially the Quran. The Quran states that none knows its interpretation except God and also that its interpretation will one day be revealed. Baha’is believe Baha’u’llah brought that interpretation and so your answer lies we believe in His Words. The Book of Certitude covers many of these questions. The thing is the only correct interpretation comes not from myself, Muslims or any individual opinion but the interpretation which comes from God.

The same with Daniel who was told the Books were sealed until the end of the age and Revelation ch 5 saying no man knows the true meanings only God and that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah a descendant of David will open the Books. Baha’u’llah was descended from David through his father Jesse.

So it all comes down to the interpretation as revealed by God’s Manifestation not any of us and we believe Baha’u’llah is that One Who speaks for God in this age and explains all these questions in many tablets which according to Baha’is are the Word of God and infallible truth.

 

[Truthseeker]

i looked up the word Ummah on the internet and this what I got:

ummah​

or um·ma

noun​

, Islam

There's a discrepancy here, @firedragon. I think you may be deceiving me.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I believe that if the people got their interpretations from the Prophets only then we would all be united.

It is the conflicting views of the leaders of religion and their interpretations which disunites us. The Jews should have not listened to their high priests but instead Christ, the Christians should have turned to Muhammad not their priests and Muslims should have listened to the Bab and Baha’u’llah not their scholars and doctors. This is how generations of believers of many religions have been given misinformation leading them each to reject the new Messengers which God sent. This is where we are all at now, rejecting each others religion due to ignorance of the truth that they are all true and from God.

 

[Truthseeker]

It is the conflicting views of the leaders of religion and their interpretations which disunites us. The Jews should have not listened to their high priests but instead Christ, the Christians should have turned to Muhammad not their priests and Muslims listened to the Bab and Baha’u’llah not their scholars and doctors. This is how generations of believers of many religions have been given misinformation leading them each to reject the new Messengers which God sent. This is where we are all at now, rejecting each others religion due to ignorance of the truth that they are all true and from God.

Well, there is nuance concerning that. What they say should be carefully considered, not taken as authority without any independent thought. A person could pretend to be the next Messenger, you know. They should consider whether their actions conflict with what they are saying are the conduct they should follow, also.

 

[firedragon]

There's a discrepancy here, @firedragon. I think you may be deceiving me.

Bye bye.

 

[Link]

I believe that if the people got their interpretations from the Prophets only then we would all be united.

The Twelve Imams were to interpret the Quran. When I bring hadiths, people resort to that Quran only stands as authority. You guys have to decide which of these are true. Or was expected that Shiites abandon what hadiths say and apparent meaning of the Quran before your Prophets show up? And why should they override these interpretations for far fetch interpretations your Prophets brought that no one had and that neither Quran confirms nor hadiths, but you have to sketch verses and seemingly impossible for most to use their imaginations that way?

 

[Link]

I looked at that dictionary, and I saw variants of the word "ummah" in there, with different meanings depending on the context. How can the people that compiled the dictionary be sure of the meanings anyway in each specific situation? They are human after all. I can't even see the context of each one as they highlighted the word in Arabic in red, and I don't see the verse in question in English. I want to see the transcribed word in sentence with the rest of sentence in English not the original Arabic as poor me cannot read that stuff. How else can I judge for myself as all human beings are supposed to do? I have no idea what the variants of Ummah signify. That is really the word Ummah? Have mercy on me!

I think the purpose of revelations and sending Messengers so eventually truth prevails, justice prevails, and guidance is followed. There are many verses saying the purpose of revelation is so at the end people rise by justice, establish it, and to bring forth people from darkness to the light. Mohammad (s) is meant to rule the world and be their legislator. The purpose of legislation is not to make just ideal but to implement it.

The Mahdi was foretold and Quran warns about him in the sense, that many cities might be destroyed given certain conditions. He is a type that if rejected, destruction will be the result especially if disbelievers react in a way to oppress the believers.

And he is foretold in a way that if believers are in peril, God will bring him about, because it's incumbent upon God to deliver the believers from their oppressors. This might be even if the conditions are such that most cities are destroyed.

The delay is so that the Mahdi (a) comes in good terms. But if believers are oppressed and in peril, he might come out in bad terms. So what we do to prepare is important.

Mohammad (s) was send to the whole world, and his Twelve Successors are universal as well. This also shows that his message can not be abrogated.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Twelve Imams were to interpret the Quran. When I bring hadiths, people resort to that Quran only stands as authority. You guys have to decide which of these are true. Or was expected that Shiites abandon what hadiths and apparent meaning of the Quran before your Prophets show up? And why should they override these interpretations for far fetch interpretations your Prophets brought that no one had and that neither Quran confirms nor hadiths, but you have to sketch verses and seemingly impossible for most to use their imaginations that way?

Baha’is believe the Bab was the Twelfth Imam and a Manifestation of God as well and He stated with regards to Muhammad:

“When God sent forth His Prophet Muhammad, on that day the termination of the prophetic cycle was foreordained in the knowledge of God.”

Selections from the Writings of the Báb
The Báb

We are now living in the Baha’i Cycle of fulfilment. The cycle of prophesying closed with Muhammad. He was the last Prophet to warn and prophesy of the Day of God. We are now living in that time foretold by Prophet Muhammad and all the Prophets of old. So Muhammad was the last Prophet to prophesy not the last Prophet to appear on earth.

“BY Him Who is the Great Announcement! The All-Merciful is come invested with undoubted sovereignty. The Balance hath been appointed, and all them that dwell on earth have been gathered together. The Trumpet hath been blown, and lo, all eyes have stared up with terror, and the hearts of all who are in the heavens and on the earth have trembled, except them whom the breath of the verses of God hath quickened, and who have detached themselves from all things.”

Bahá’u’lláh

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think the purpose of revelations and sending Messengers so eventually truth prevails, justice prevails, and guidance is followed. There are many verses saying the purpose of revelation is so at the end people rise by justice, establish it, and to bring forth people from darkness to the light. Mohammad (s) is meant to rule the world and be their legislator. The purpose of legislation is not to make just ideal but to implement it.

The Mahdi was foretold and Quran warns about him in the sense, that many cities might be destroyed given certain conditions. He is a type that if rejected, destruction will be the result especially if disbelievers react in a way to oppress the believers.

And he is foretold in a way that if believers are in peril, God will bring him about, because it's incumbent upon God to deliver the believers from their oppressors. This might be even if the conditions are such that most cities are destroyed.

Mohammad (s) was send to the whole world, and his Twelve Successors are universal as well. This also shows that his message can not be abrogated.

So are you saying God cannot abrogate if He so wishes? His Hands are tied? The God i believe in can do whatever He pleases.

 

[Link]

Baha’is believe the Bab was the Twelfth Imam and a Manifestation of God as well and He stated with regards to Muhammad:

“When God sent forth His Prophet Muhammad, on that day the termination of the prophetic cycle was foreordained in the knowledge of God.”

Selections from the Writings of the Báb
The Báb

We are now living in the Baha’i Cycle of fulfilment. The cycle of prophesying closed with Muhammad. He was the last Prophet to warn and prophesy of the Day of God. We are now living in that time foretold by Prophet Muhammad and all the Prophets of old. So Muhammad was the last Prophet to prophesy not the last Prophet to appear on earth.

“BY Him Who is the Great Announcement! The All-Merciful is come invested with undoubted sovereignty. The Balance hath been appointed, and all them that dwell on earth have been gathered together. The Trumpet hath been blown, and lo, all eyes have stared up with terror, and the hearts of all who are in the heavens and on the earth have trembled, except them whom the breath of the verses of God hath quickened, and who have detached themselves from all things.”

Bahá’u’lláh

That doesn't really address my contention. You can believe it, but if Imams (a) words contradict your interpretation or Bab's interpretation, and also it goes against the apparent meaning of Quran, why should people abandon both for sake of a person claiming to be a Prophet?

What purpose does Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) hold if people were suppose to abandon their teachings?

 

[Link]

So are you saying God cannot abrogate if He so wishes? His Hands are tied? The God i believe in can do whatever He pleases.

You contradict yourself. You are saying God cannot finalize a revelation. To you that is impossible. So perhaps you don't believe God can do what he wishes.

Also, it's problematic from another angle. The Quran says heaven and earth are created for a term that ends. Logically speaking, if the world will come to an end, there has to be a last Prophet. But you are saying if God tells people so and so is a final Prophet, God's hands are tied.

So God per you can't end the world either.

 

[Truthseeker]

Bye bye.

i say 'bye bye" too. I don't trust you to have a fair discussion. I also think I went wrong in arguing with you for an extended period of time. It doesn't pay to try to win arguments over a long period of time especially. I think probably arguing to you period is a waste of time. I think your short "red herrings" and "Ad hominems" without bothering to say why, in your opinion they are such some of the time at least is not a good response and may be hiding a weakness on your part in not being able to answer what is said. I don't know when in the past you've said something and in my admitted ignorance I don't know you may have been deceiving me. I think my psycholizing you when I don't really know what your motives or what you are feeling on my part is off base. I don't for sure if this is an attempt to deceive, but in saying "bye, bye" there was no defense of yourself on your part seems suspicious, too.

I will not argue with you ever again, but that doesn't mean I'll never talk to you again.

 

[Truthseeker]

I think the purpose of revelations and sending Messengers so eventually truth prevails, justice prevails, and guidance is followed. There are many verses saying the purpose of revelation is so at the end people rise by justice, establish it, and to bring forth people from darkness to the light. Mohammad (s) is meant to rule the world and be their legislator. The purpose of legislation is not to make just ideal but to implement it.

The Mahdi was foretold and Quran warns about him in the sense, that many cities might be destroyed given certain conditions. He is a type that if rejected, destruction will be the result especially if disbelievers react in a way to oppress the believers.

And he is foretold in a way that if believers are in peril, God will bring him about, because it's incumbent upon God to deliver the believers from their oppressors. This might be even if the conditions are such that most cities are destroyed.

The delay is so that the Mahdi (a) comes in good terms. But if believers are oppressed and in peril, he might come out in bad terms. So what we do to prepare is important.

Mohammad (s) was send to the whole world, and his Twelve Successors are universal as well. This also shows that his message can not be abrogated.

What do you think about this dictionary? I entered the word "ummah" on google and it came back with the answer of it meaning in English "Islam". It could be that is too simple, that it could have other meanings, but in that dictionary it looked like firedragon might have steered to words that are similar to Ummah, but is not Ummah in order to deceive. You strike me as having some honesty, what do you think about this? I will ask @InvestigateTruth also, who knows Arabic as a Persian who originally I gather came from Iran.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary

 

[loverofhumanity]

That doesn't really address my contention. You can believe it, but if Imams (a) words contradict your interpretation or Bab's interpretation, and also it goes against the apparent meaning of Quran, why should people abandon both for sake of a person claiming to be a Prophet?

What purpose does Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) hold if people were suppose to abandon their teachings?

Here is what Baha’u’llah states in this regard.

“Obey God and obey the Apostle, and those among
you invested with authority.” By “those invested with authority” is meant
primarily and more especially the Imáms—the blessings of God rest upon them!
They, verily, are the manifestations of the power of God, and the sources of
His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His
commandments.”

Bahá’u’lláh

 

[Link]

What do you think about this dictionary? I entered the word "ummah" on google and it came back with the answer of it meaning in English "Islam". It could be that is too simple, that it could have other meanings, but in that dictionary it looked like firedragon might have steered to words that are similar to Ummah, but is not Ummah in order to deceive. You strike me as having some honesty, what do you think about this? I will ask @InvestigateTruth also, who knows Arabic as a Persian who originally I gather came from Iran.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary

Umma in the verse "this is your path, one path" there it means religion and is talking about Islam as the religion, the one path. When it says "we found our forefathers upon an umma and are following their footsteps", it means path/course/way and it means path in terms of religion.

Arabic words have many synonyms but they also have roots that explain their application.

The roots are always part of how to consider their usage. Let's take the word righteous for an example.

Mutaqeen is that but from perspective they guard against evil and wrath of God.
Saliheen is that but from perspective they are fixed in their souls. Salihat also means good actions but from perspective of fixing one self and fixing the state of world.
Abrar is that but from perspective of being free from evil.
Muhsineen is that but from perspective of goodness in terms of acting beautifully.

They can be used interchangeably, which one you use is for emphasis.

Different words for "people" also exist, Qawm, umma, ahle, qarya (can be city, but also generation or people).

Now Ahle is primarily family, so when use it in context that it can't be family, it means a people that are close to one another perspective. So it means family unless, it has to be people. So when Musa (a) says "A Vizier from my ahl", it means family in the Quran. Yet when it says "Ahle maydan", it means "people of maydan".

Umma means people/nation, but from perspective of path. That is because it also means "path/course/way" in certain contexts which also can be synonymous with religion as the path in certain contexts so can mean religion and if emphasizing the path of Prophets are one path, then it means Islam as that path.

When it says "best umma" "intermediate umma" and when Ibrahim (a) prayes for an "from my offspring an umma that is submitting" - the twelver Shiite hadiths say it synonymous here with the word "leaders" and is referring to them as a path towards God. Recall the word "Imam" is used for a road in Surah Hijr, so can be synonymous with path, except Imam is from the perspective of "in front", so a road, leads to something in the end of it perspective and can be followed.

The word when applied to animals as umma means they too have a path they follow as a species. And we too have a path to follow as humans.

So humanity is an umma per Quran.

It can mean people as it does in many places, but from perspective, they have a path. In case, of a witness from every "umma", I would say the umma path is the witness in this case, the Imam of the time, whether they follow or not, they should follow it and it's their only path to God.

In Surah A'raaf, the word means people in the verse you quote, but it's referring specifically to the people who's path was destruction. That is the context before narrates about destroyed people and so the path way their is about nations who's path was destruction. It's implicit the verse means "Every (such) people"...

The such is not needed, because of the implicit pathway of destruction within the word, that the previous context gives it.

 

[Truthseeker]

Umma in the verse "this is your path, one path" there it means religion and is talking about Islam as the religion, the one path. When it says "we found our forefathers upon an umma and are following their footsteps", it means path/course/way and it means path in terms of religion.

Arabic words have many synonyms but they also have roots that explain their application.

The roots are always part of how to consider their usage. Let's take the word righteous for an example.

Mutaqeen is that but from perspective they guard against evil and wrath of God.
Saliheen is that but from perspective they are fixed in their souls. Salihat also means good actions but from perspective of fixing one self and fixing the state of world.
Abrar is that but from perspective of being free from evil.
Muhsineen is that but from perspective of goodness in terms of acting beautifully.

They can be used interchangeably, which one you use is for emphasis.

Different words for "people" also exist, Qawm, umma, ahle, qarya (can be city, but also generation or people).

Now Ahle is primarily family, so when use it in context that it can't be family, it means a people that are close to one another perspective. So it means family unless, it has to be people. So when Musa (a) says "A Vizier from my ahl", it means family in the Quran. Yet when it says "Ahle maydan", it means "people of maydan".

Umma means people/nation, but from perspective of path. That is because it also means "path/course/way" in certain contexts which also can be synonymous with religion as the path in certain contexts so can mean religion and if emphasizing the path of Prophets are one path, then it means Islam as that path.

When it says "best umma" "intermediate umma" and when Ibrahim (a) prayes for an "from my offspring an umma that is submitting" - the twelver Shiite hadiths say it synonymous here with the word "leaders" and is referring to them as a path towards God. Recall the word "Imam" is used for a road in Surah Hijr, so can be synonymous with path, except Imam is from the perspective of "in front", so a road, leads to something in the end of it perspective and can be followed.

The word when applied to animals as umma means they too have a path they follow as a species. And we too have a path to follow as humans.

So humanity is an umma per Quran.

It can mean people as it does in many places, but from perspective, they have a path. In case, of a witness from every "umma", I would say the umma path is the witness in this case, the Imam of the time, whether they follow or not, they should follow it and it's their only path to God.

In Surah A'raaf, the word means people in the verse you quote, but it's referring specifically to the people who's path was destruction. That is the context before narrates about destroyed people and so the path way their is about nations who's path was destruction. It's implicit the verse means "Every (such) people"...

The such is not needed, because of the implicit pathway of destruction within the word, that the previous context gives it.

i don't know what to think about what you say here, but I believe it is your honest opinion.

 

[Link]

Here is what Baha’u’llah states in this regard.

“Obey God and obey the Apostle, and those among
you invested with authority.” By “those invested with authority” is meant
primarily and more especially the Imáms—the blessings of God rest upon them!
They, verily, are the manifestations of the power of God, and the sources of
His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His
commandments.”

Bahá’u’lláh

So why should we abandon the hadiths and apparent meaning of Quran for a person claiming to be a Prophet that contradicts majority of our hadiths? For example, Angels - Quran and hadiths say they are non-humans. The context in Quran is clear they were created before humans. Why should we abandon the apparent meaning of Quran with that for a Prophet who says they don't exist and it really means saintly humans? Why should we abandon the many hadiths about Angels?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think We all agree that is no verse that there will be more Nabis after Mohammad (s).

The question is why?

I think @InvestigateTruth sees this as a test from God. God could be clear but decides to veil it in the concept of day of judgment.

I would say, two issues occur:

(1) Day of judgment is clear but is not what Bahai say it means.
(2) If day of judgment is what Bahais say it is, then it makes God into a monstrous deceiver. No humans got it right for a very long time till Baha'allah shows up. That's too much. It also makes Quran into a book of riddles rather than the clear signs and insights it claims it is.

Of course there is a verse that says, there will come Nabis:


وَأَشۡرَقَتِ ٱلۡأَرۡضُ بِنُورِ رَبِّهَا وَوُضِعَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبُ وَجِا۟یۤءَ بِٱلنَّبِیِّـۧنَ وَٱلشُّهَدَاۤءِ وَقُضِیَ بَیۡنَهُم بِٱلۡحَقِّ وَهُمۡ لَا یُظۡلَمُونَ

"And the earth shineth with the light of her Lord, and the Book is set up, and the prophets and the witnesses are brought, and it is judged between them with truth, and they are not wronged" 39:69


There are 4 things are mentioned clearly in this verse:

1. The Earth shall shine with Light of its Lord. (A new guidance, Light of Knowledge will come to earth)

2. The Book of God is set (Revelation of a new Book from God)

3. There will come more than One Prophet. (Plural for of Nabi)

4. The followers of these Prophets will be Martyred.

5. God will Judge between them and the wrongdoers who kill them.

 

[Link]

Of course there is a verse that says, there will come Nabis:


وَأَشۡرَقَتِ ٱلۡأَرۡضُ بِنُورِ رَبِّهَا وَوُضِعَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبُ وَجِا۟یۤءَ بِٱلنَّبِیِّـۧنَ وَٱلشُّهَدَاۤءِ وَقُضِیَ بَیۡنَهُم بِٱلۡحَقِّ وَهُمۡ لَا یُظۡلَمُونَ

"And the earth shineth with the light of her Lord, and the Book is set up, and the prophets and the witnesses are brought, and it is judged between them with truth, and they are not wronged" 39:69


There are 4 things are mentioned clearly in this verse:

1. The Earth shall shine with Light of its Lord. (A new guidance, Light of Knowledge will come to earth)

2. The Book of God is set (Revelation of a new Book from God)

3. There will come more than One Prophet. (Plural for of Nabi)

4. The followers of these Prophets will be Martyred.

5. God will Judge between them and the wrongdoers who kill them.

This is circumstantial evidence since you have not shown the Shia Muslim understanding is wrong about this verse. From what I understand, it refers to the day of judgment.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So now you have to resort to more ambiguity and weird interpretations?

What ambiguity? It is very clear. No, symbolism, no Analogy.

it says, you Muslims are a middle Ummah, meaning, tou are Not the Final Ummah.

It means, you Muslims are a witness agains those who rejected Islam, but the Messenger (next One), will testify against you, because you will reject the next Messenger.

The hadiths about that verse talk about it being "the family of Mohammad" being an intermediate course, or what people often called "middle men", as in between God and servants, they between that.

Kindly quote such Hadithes.

No, وسطي means middle, as something or someone is between two things.

Sunnis see it to mean a nation between extremes, but I think Tabatabai rightly argues it's linked to being witnesses over people and Quran elsewhere talks about the witnesses so it's more about being middle/intermediates course between God and his creation.

Do you think Ummah of Islam as a whole worldwide community has been a moderate Ummah?

I mean compare Ummah of Islam with other Ummahs. What is special about Muslims that you can claim you are moderate Ummah, but others are not?

If you talk about wars and conflicts between Muslims, Islam is now a good example of a violent Ummah. How many Sunnis and Shias Killed each other? How many sects and divisions are among Muslims? What is this moderation about?