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For Muslims: Is Muhammad the last Prophet from God?
- Thread starter Truthseeker
- Start date
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Rather than present your case in return, you have repeatedly ever since I have known you, you dismiss what is said by "red Herring" or "Ad hominem". How about responding with something cogent? When you do this it is rude, as well as unenlightening. To this you will respond "Ad hominem", I predict.
29:2
Do people think once they say, “We believe,” that they will be left without being put to the test?
3:7
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah.
Some verses are clear and others are allegorical, the meaning known only to God.
I think We all agree that is no verse that there will be more Nabis after Mohammad (s).
The question is why?
I think @InvestigateTruth sees this as a test from God. God could be clear but decides to veil it in the concept of day of judgment.
I would say, two issues occur:
(1) Day of judgment is clear but is not what Bahai say it means.
(2) If day of judgment is what Bahais say it is, then it makes God into a monstrous deceiver. No humans got it right for a very long time till Baha'allah shows up. That's too much. It also makes Quran into a book of riddles rather than the clear signs and insights it claims it is.
The question is why?
I think @InvestigateTruth sees this as a test from God. God could be clear but decides to veil it in the concept of day of judgment.
I would say, two issues occur:
(1) Day of judgment is clear but is not what Bahai say it means.
(2) If day of judgment is what Bahais say it is, then it makes God into a monstrous deceiver. No humans got it right for a very long time till Baha'allah shows up. That's too much. It also makes Quran into a book of riddles rather than the clear signs and insights it claims it is.
Is this the official Bahai interpretation of 3:7? I think allegorical can be clear. We've had discussions on 3:7 in threads before. Your translation is it the official Bahai interpretation?
What the Hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a) says about verse 3:7
The Hadiths don’t say what you’re saying though. It says none of the 7 meanings contradict the apparent meaning. If that was the intention, then, what do you say about the interpretation of the "Stars", in the Surah that you mentioned, means "Imams"? Could that verse also mean apparent Stars...
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You did not dissapoint, your answer was as expected.
So we can take from that reply that the return of the Messenger, Jesus Christ (a Messenger after Muhammad), is irrelevant to Islam.
Regards Tony
Salam
Isa (a) is coming back but he won't be bringing scripture. I think @firedragon said messengers but what needs to be done, is a verse saying there will be Nabis after Mohammad (s).
Also, the way the Quran talks about the Mahdi (a) coming back is in terms of a destruction type threatening Messenger. Let's look at Surah Isra:
مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ وَمَا كُنَّا مُعَذِّبِينَ حَتَّىٰ نَبْعَثَ رَسُولًا | Whoever is guided is guided only for [the good of] his own soul, and whoever goes astray, goes astray only to its detriment. No bearer shall bear another’s burden. We do not punish [any community] until We have sent [it] an apostle. | Al-Israa : 15
وَإِذَا أَرَدْنَا أَنْ نُهْلِكَ قَرْيَةً أَمَرْنَا مُتْرَفِيهَا فَفَسَقُوا فِيهَا فَحَقَّ عَلَيْهَا الْقَوْلُ فَدَمَّرْنَاهَا تَدْمِيرًا | And when We desire to destroy a town We command its affluent ones [to obey Allah]. But they commit transgression in it, and so the word becomes due against it, and We destroy it utterly. | Al-Israa : 16
وَكَمْ أَهْلَكْنَا مِنَ الْقُرُونِ مِنْ بَعْدِ نُوحٍ ۗ وَكَفَىٰ بِرَبِّكَ بِذُنُوبِ عِبَادِهِ خَبِيرًا بَصِيرًا | And how many towns/generations We have destroyed since Noah! Your Lord is sufficient as [a witness who is] well aware and percipient of His servants’ sins. | Al-Israa : 17
وَإِنْ مِنْ قَرْيَةٍ إِلَّا نَحْنُ مُهْلِكُوهَا قَبْلَ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ أَوْ مُعَذِّبُوهَا عَذَابًا شَدِيدًا ۚ كَانَ ذَٰلِكَ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَسْطُورًا | And there is not a town but We will destroy it before the Day of Resurrection, or punish it with a severe punishment. That has been written in the Book. | Al-Israa : 58
وَمَا مَنَعَنَا أَنْ نُرْسِلَ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا أَنْ كَذَّبَ بِهَا الْأَوَّلُونَ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا ثَمُودَ النَّاقَةَ مُبْصِرَةً فَظَلَمُوا بِهَا ۚ وَمَا نُرْسِلُ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا تَخْوِيفًا | Nothing keeps Us from sending signs except that the former peoples denied them. We gave Thamud the she-camel as an eye-opener, but they wronged her. We do not send the signs except as warning. | Al-Israa : 59
أَفَأَمِنْتُمْ أَنْ يَخْسِفَ بِكُمْ جَانِبَ الْبَرِّ أَوْ يُرْسِلَ عَلَيْكُمْ حَاصِبًا ثُمَّ لَا تَجِدُوا لَكُمْ وَكِيلًا | Do you feel secure that He will not make the coastland swallow you, or He will not unleash upon you a rain of stones? Then you will not find any defender for yourselves. | Al-Israa : 68
أَمْ أَمِنْتُمْ أَنْ يُعِيدَكُمْ فِيهِ تَارَةً أُخْرَىٰ فَيُرْسِلَ عَلَيْكُمْ قَاصِفًا مِنَ الرِّيحِ فَيُغْرِقَكُمْ بِمَا كَفَرْتُمْ ۙ ثُمَّ لَا تَجِدُوا لَكُمْ عَلَيْنَا بِهِ تَبِيعًا | Do you feel secure that He will not send you back into it another time and unleash against you a shattering gale and drown you because of your unfaith? Then you will not find for yourselves any redresser against Us. | Al-Israa : 69
وَإِنْ كَادُوا لَيَسْتَفِزُّونَكَ مِنَ الْأَرْضِ لِيُخْرِجُوكَ مِنْهَا ۖ وَإِذًا لَا يَلْبَثُونَ خِلَافَكَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا | They were about to hound you out of the land, to expel you from it, but then they would not have stayed after you but a little. | Al-Israa : 76
سُنَّةَ مَنْ قَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ مِنْ رُسُلِنَا ۖ وَلَا تَجِدُ لِسُنَّتِنَا تَحْوِيلًا | A precedent concerning those We have sent before you from among Our apostles, and you will not find any change in Our precedent. | Al-Israa : 77
فَأَرَادَ أَنْ يَسْتَفِزَّهُمْ مِنَ الْأَرْضِ فَأَغْرَقْنَاهُ وَمَنْ مَعَهُ جَمِيعًا | He desired to exterminate them from the land, so We drowned him and all those who were with him. | Al-Israa : 103
The two promises we have to keep in mind as well.
It is related with a sound chain of authority from Salman al- Farsi, 'I visited the Messenger of Allah who looked at me and said,
"O Salman, Allah does not send a prophet or messenger unless there are with him twelve chiefs."
“O Messenger of Allah, I know this from the people of the two books.”
"O Salman, do you know my twelve chiefs, whom Allah has chosen to be leaders after me?"
"Allah and His Messenger know best."
"O Salman, Allah created me from the quintessence of light, and called me, so I obeyed Him. Then He created 'Ali from my light, and called him, and he obeyed. From my light and the light of 'Ali He created Fatimah: He called her and she obeyed. From me, 'Ali and Fatimah, He created al-Hasan and al-Husayn. He called them and they obeyed Him. Allah has named us with five of His names: Allah is al-Mahmud (the Praised) and I am Muhammad (worthy of praise); Allah is al-'Ali (the High), and this is 'Ali (the one of high rank); Allah is al-Fatir (Creator out of nothing), and this is Fatimah; Allah is the One with Hasan (beneficence), and this is Hasan; Allah is Muhassin (the Beautiful), and this is Husayn. He created nine Imams from the light of al-Husayn and called them and they obeyed Him, before Allah created either Heaven on high, the outstretched earth, the air, the angels or man. We were lights who glorified Him, listened to Him and obeyed Him."
"O Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be your ransom! What is there for the person who recognizes these men as they should be recognized?"
"O Salman, whoever recognizes them as they should be recognized, and follows their example, befriends them and is free of their enemies, by Allah! he is one of us. He will return to where we return, and he will be where we are!"
"O Messenger of Allah, is there belief without knowing their names and lineage?"
"No, Salman."
"Messenger of Allah, where will I find them?"
"You already know al-Husayn; then there will be the master of the worshippers, 'Ali ibn Husayn (Zayn al-'Abidin); then his son Muhammad ibn 'Ali, the piercer of the knowledge of the early and the later prophets and messengers (al-Baqir); then Ja'far ibn Muhammad, the truthful tongue of Allah (al-Sadiq); then Musa ibn Ja'far, the one who kept his rage silent through patience in Allah (al-Kadhim); then 'Ali ibn Musa, pleased with the secret of Allah (al-Rida '); then Muhammad ibn 'Ali, the chosen one from the creatures of Allah (al-Mukatar); then 'Ali ibn Muhammad, the guide to Allah (al-Hadi); then al-Hasan, son of 'Ali, the silent, trustworthy guardian over the secret of Allah (al-'Askari); then mim ha' mim dal (Muhammad), called Ibn al-Hasan, the announcer who establishes the right of Allah."
Salman said, 'I wept. Then I continued,
"O Messenger of Allah, let my life be deferred until their time! "’
'He said, "O Salman, recite this:
When the promise for the first of the two came, We raised over you our servants of mighty prowess, so they went to and fro among the houses, and it was a promise to be accomplished. Then We gave you back the turn to prevail against them, and aided you with wealth and children and made you a numerous band." ' (17:5-6)
"I wept a lot," said Salman, "and my yearning became intense.” I said, "O Messenger of Allah, is it a pledge from you?"
' "Yes, by the One Who sent me and entrusted me with the Message; it is a pledge from me and from 'Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, al-Husayn, and the nine Imams descended from the children of al-Husayn, to you and those who are with us, and those of us who are wronged. Whoever is truly sincere in his belief, then by Allah, Salman, let Iblis and his armies come. Whoever has pure disbelief will be punished by retaliation, torture and inheritance (i.e. by others rather than them). Your Lord will not wrong anyone. It is we who are indicated in this verse:
We desired to bestow a favour upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the leaders, and to make them the heirs, and to grant them power in the land, and to make Pharaoh, Haman and their armies see from them what they feared." ' (28:5-6)
Salman said, “I took leave of the Messenger of Allah, completely unconcerned as to how Salman would meet death, or how death would meet him.”
So, when Quran says:
إِنْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ لِأَنْفُسِكُمْ ۖ وَإِنْ أَسَأْتُمْ فَلَهَا ۚ فَإِذَا جَاءَ وَعْدُ الْآخِرَةِ لِيَسُوءُوا وُجُوهَكُمْ وَلِيَدْخُلُوا الْمَسْجِدَ كَمَا دَخَلُوهُ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَلِيُتَبِّرُوا مَا عَلَوْا تَتْبِيرًا | [saying,] ‘If you do good, you will do good to your [own] souls, and if you do evil, it will be [evil] for them.’ So when the last promise came, they will make your faces wretched, and enter the Masjid just as they entered it the first time, and destroy utterly whatever they come upon. | Al-Israa : 7
The last promise is the same with the one here:
وَقُلْنَا مِنْ بَعْدِهِ لِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اسْكُنُوا الْأَرْضَ فَإِذَا جَاءَ وَعْدُ الْآخِرَةِ جِئْنَا بِكُمْ لَفِيفًا | After him We said to the Children of Israel, ‘Take up residence in the land, and when the occasion of the last promise comes, We came to you mixed all together | Al-Israa : 104
What does it mean God coming to them? You got to keep in mind:
وَإِنْ مِنْ قَرْيَةٍ إِلَّا نَحْنُ مُهْلِكُوهَا قَبْلَ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ أَوْ مُعَذِّبُوهَا عَذَابًا شَدِيدًا ۚ كَانَ ذَٰلِكَ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَسْطُورًا | And there is not a town but We will destroy it before the Day of Resurrection, or punish it with a severe punishment. That has been written in the Book. | Al-Israa : 58
This means when the last promise comes, the Mahdi (a) will appear as God does not punish unless he sends a Messenger. And God will destroy the oppressors at this point (freemasons are majority of Bani-Israel today).
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Sorry, I see words similar to Ummah, but no Ummah there. There are some similar words that are not Ummah. That dictionary proves nothing to me.
This is what Baha’u’llah states in the Kitab-i-Qan:
“Even as thou dost witness how the people of the Qur’án, like unto the people of old, have allowed the words “Seal of the Prophets” to veil their eyes. And yet, they themselves testify to this verse: “None knoweth the interpretation thereof but God and they that are well-grounded in knowledge”
Kitab-i-Iqan
Baha'u'llah
The verse 33:40 promises the meeting on that day with God. A day when we shall meet God.
33:40 Mohammed is not the father of any man among you; but the apostle of GOD, and the seal of the prophets: and GOD knoweth all things. O true believers, remember GOD with a frequent remembrance, and celebrate his praise morning and evening. It is he who is gracious unto you, and his angels intercede for you, that he may lead you forth from darkness into light; and he is merciful towards the true believers. Their salutation, on the day whereon they shall meet him, shall be, Peace! and he hath prepared for them an honourable recompense.
This is Baha’u’llah’s explanation Of 33:40
“Even as the Lord of being hath in His unerring Book, after speaking of the “Seal” in His exalted utterance: “Muḥammad is the Apostle of God and the Seal of the Prophets,” hath revealed unto all people the promise of “attainment unto the divine Presence.” To this attainment to the presence of the immortal King testify the verses of the Book, some of which We have already mentioned. The one true God is My witness! Nothing more exalted or more explicit than “attainment unto the divine Presence” hath been revealed in the Qur’án. Well is it with him that hath attained thereunto, in the day wherein most of the people, even as ye witness, have turned away therefrom.
“And yet, through the mystery of the former verse, they have turned away from the grace promised by the latter, despite the fact that “attainment unto the divine Presence” in the “Day of Resurrection” is explicitly stated in the Book.
It hath been demonstrated and definitely established, through clear evidences, that by “Resurrection” is meant the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause, and by “attainment unto the divine Presence” is meant attainment unto the presence of His Beauty in the person of His Manifestation.”
Excerpt from
Kitab-i-Iqan
Baha'u'llah
The last passage Baha’u’llah is referring to evidences He has previously explained in this Book so they need to be referred to. He is saying that God’s Representatives, the Prophets or Manifestations constitute the ‘Divine Presence’ on this earth as They are God’s Spokes Persons. And that in sura 33:40 the ’meeting with God’ refers to the arising of a Manifestation of God.
33:40 Mohammed is not the father of any man among you; but the apostle of GOD, and the seal of the prophets: and GOD knoweth all things. O true believers, remember GOD with a frequent remembrance, and celebrate his praise morning and evening. It is he who is gracious unto you, and his angels intercede for you, that he may lead you forth from darkness into light; and he is merciful towards the true believers. Their salutation, on the day whereon they shall meet him, shall be, Peace! and he hath prepared for them an honourable recompense.
This is Baha’u’llah’s explanation Of 33:40
“Even as the Lord of being hath in His unerring Book, after speaking of the “Seal” in His exalted utterance: “Muḥammad is the Apostle of God and the Seal of the Prophets,” hath revealed unto all people the promise of “attainment unto the divine Presence.” To this attainment to the presence of the immortal King testify the verses of the Book, some of which We have already mentioned. The one true God is My witness! Nothing more exalted or more explicit than “attainment unto the divine Presence” hath been revealed in the Qur’án. Well is it with him that hath attained thereunto, in the day wherein most of the people, even as ye witness, have turned away therefrom.
“And yet, through the mystery of the former verse, they have turned away from the grace promised by the latter, despite the fact that “attainment unto the divine Presence” in the “Day of Resurrection” is explicitly stated in the Book.
It hath been demonstrated and definitely established, through clear evidences, that by “Resurrection” is meant the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause, and by “attainment unto the divine Presence” is meant attainment unto the presence of His Beauty in the person of His Manifestation.”
Excerpt from
Kitab-i-Iqan
Baha'u'llah
The last passage Baha’u’llah is referring to evidences He has previously explained in this Book so they need to be referred to. He is saying that God’s Representatives, the Prophets or Manifestations constitute the ‘Divine Presence’ on this earth as They are God’s Spokes Persons. And that in sura 33:40 the ’meeting with God’ refers to the arising of a Manifestation of God.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
How do Baha'is interpret that Jesus will come after Muhammad? Since Baha'is believe he won't, but rather that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ in spirit. I understand how Baha'is can do that if it says, "Christ", or the anointed one will come. But if it specifically says Jesus, how do you make that not Jesus, himself, but Baha'u'llah?
I hope you don't do the same thing and say that it doesn't mean "Jesus" when it says "Jesus", but it really means the "spirit" of Jesus. But, then again, how else can you interpret it.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
You want us to read a whole thread? I've got enough to deal with here as it is.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Irrelevant.
firedragon
Veteran Member
There will be no responses to red herrings and ad hominem. The OP presented something. I asked for an explicit verse and I explained why. You are responding with what you felt a word meant and I gave you sources to show you how wrong you are. You responded with an ad hominem.
How could anyone respond to ad hominem other than point out the fallacy? I like to stay relevant and look at the text. I am not gonna respond to preaching or red herrings or ad hominem. If that's a problem, you can complain to the admin.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Perhaps you should look into the Ahmadiyya's then. That's how they see their Mahdi, or at least the same Sharia will be followed. What do you expect Jesus to be doing? Whoops I think I am confusing the Mahdi or Qa'im with the return of Jesus. Sorry. What will ether one of them be doing, in your opinion? The same kind of thing that the Jews expected of the Messiah, that is conquer the world, or by their beneficent influence make the whole world Muslim with the same laws as before? Both?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Wrong. Only the Awwa or Primary meaning of the Muthashabih verses are known only to God. And that was said by God himself in the Qur'an.
Cheers.
Last edited:
Link, I see that it is not the Messengers that are the aggressors, I see it is our reaction to the Given Message, or the failure to embrace the peace enshrined within the Message, that brings about the aggression, fighting and wars.
There is much support of this in the Baha'i Writings, thus I can conclude the Quran will have verses that will also reflect this.
The point being made is that the Quran does show that there is a requirement for a Messenger after Muhammad, no matter what Light that Messenger comes in.
Regards Tony
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
I looked at that dictionary, and I saw variants of the word "ummah" in there, with different meanings depending on the context. How can the people that compiled the dictionary be sure of the meanings anyway in each specific situation? They are human after all. I can't even see the context of each one as they highlighted the word in Arabic in red, and I don't see the verse in question in English. I want to see the transcribed word in sentence with the rest of sentence in English not the original Arabic as poor me cannot read that stuff. How else can I judge for myself as all human beings are supposed to do? I have no idea what the variants of Ummah signify. That is really the word Ummah? Have mercy on me!There will be no responses to red herrings and ad hominem. The OP presented something. I asked for an explicit verse and I explained why. You are responding with what you felt a word meant and I gave you sources to show you how wrong you are. You responded with an ad hominem.
How could anyone respond to ad hominem other than point out the fallacy? I like to stay relevant and look at the text. I am not gonna respond to preaching or red herrings or ad hominem. If that's a problem, you can complain to the admin.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Exactly. That's the error you made.
Do you understand Assiyaak in arabic hermeneutics?