For Parents: If God Told You To...

[helpmeplease]

Firstly.. than it is to be said as GIVE insted of SACRIFICE, and if it just happend to be my own child, than who am i stop god ? i should bear this normally insted of any sorrowness.

There are some really sick people in this world.

 

[Kathryn]

i have a problem with the concept of sacrifice...

I know you do. That doesn't negate the concept, however.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Firstly.. than it is to be said as GIVE insted of SACRIFICE, and if it just happend to be my own child, than who am i stop god ? i should bear this normally insted of any sorrowness.

If God really wants his "property" back, why would he need your help? It's like that line in Star Trek V: "what does God need with a starship?" Well... what does God need with a chinu?

 

[waitasec]

I know you do. That doesn't negate the concept, however.

i understand that it doesn't negate the concept but it does say something about my reasoning

 

[Kathryn]

But isn't god god regardless of what the calendar says? What do you believe god intended for you and I to take from this tale? To me it seems to promote blind obedience in lieu of conscience and ethics.

As a Christian, there is a lot of the OT that I don't consider to be LITERAL - and neither do Jews for that matter, and it's as much or more their literary trove as it is ours.

I see it as imagery preceding Christ's sacrifice on the cross, the sacrifices at Passover, etc. I see it as a story illustrating the sorrow of a father/God the Father. I see it as illustrating our relief and thankfulness that a sacrifice was made FOR us rather than BY us.

I also see the OT as rudimentary, though it is full of truth and beauty. Sort of like this:

When a child is young, you tell them simply "Don't go out into the street," or "Don't ever touch the stove." Do you mean for them to NEVER, EVER go into the street, or touch a stove? No, of course not. Yes, you are the boss, yes, you are in charge, and yes, you said this and meant it at the time, but it was for THAT time in their lives and THAT particular level of maturity. YOU don't change your character - but they mature and gain more understanding, and those old commands, which were relevant and right at the time, lose their situational relevance.

Christianity/the NT is the further development of groundwork laid in the OT, in my opinion as a Christian. God continues to reveal His nature and character to man - from the earliest books (Job for instance, and the Pentateuch) thru the New Testament.

 

[Kathryn]

I remember when God said he was going to make a flood in x place, and the person told him "but what if there are 50 good peole there?" and God told him "okay, if there are 50 good people, I am not gong to maket he flood" Then the person says "but if there are 10 good people? would you make the flood then?".

This person that do tells what is moraly right is what should be encouraged. Not the one that says that if God asks you to kill a complete inocent then it is the right thing to do (I KNOW God knew he wasn´t gonna die. The thing is that Abraham didn´t know that and was willing to kill an inocent (his own kid) because of God (or if you will it, this voice he had heard so many times and appeared to be friendly to him)

It wasn't a flood. It was the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Just sayin'.

 

[Kathryn]

This is weird to me...Though Abraham did not sacrifice Isaac, you still justify his intentions by saying God really didnt want this to happen...totally ignoring the fact Abraham was absolutelty getting ready to murder his son...however if this same God should ever ask you to do the same, you would go to a psychiatrist...May i ask what you would do, despite all treatment, if God still kept at you asking for the deed to be done?

I would not believe it was a voice from God. So it's a moot point.

 

[waitasec]

I would not believe it was a voice from God. So it's a moot point.

just for fun...cause you know it's gonna go there...

why wouldn't you, it has nothing to do with jesus already sacrificing himself, does it?

 

[Kathryn]

just for fun...cause you know it's gonna go there...

why wouldn't you, it has nothing to do with jesus already sacrificing himself, does it?

What? Sorry, not following you.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As a Christian, there is a lot of the OT that I don't consider to be LITERAL - and neither do Jews for that matter, and it's as much or more their literary trove as it is ours.

I see it as imagery preceding Christ's sacrifice on the cross, the sacrifices at Passover, etc. I see it as a story illustrating the sorrow of a father/God the Father. I see it as illustrating our relief and thankfulness that a sacrifice was made FOR us rather than BY us.

I also see the OT as rudimentary, though it is full of truth and beauty. Sort of like this:

When a child is young, you tell them simply "Don't go out into the street," or "Don't ever touch the stove." Do you mean for them to NEVER, EVER go into the street, or touch a stove? No, of course not. Yes, you are the boss, yes, you are in charge, and yes, you said this and meant it at the time, but it was for THAT time in their lives and THAT particular level of maturity. YOU don't change your character - but they mature and gain more understanding, and those old commands, which were relevant and right at the time, lose their situational relevance.

Christianity/the NT is the further development of groundwork laid in the OT, in my opinion as a Christian. God continues to reveal His nature and character to man - from the earliest books (Job for instance, and the Pentateuch) thru the New Testament.

So... the Christian faith is the "adult" one and the Jewish faith is for people with only a child's understanding and maturity?

I know it's still only morning, but I feel pretty safe in saying that this is the most chauvinistic thing I'll read all day.

 

[waitasec]

What? Sorry, not following you.

well if jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, why would god ask you sacrifice your child?

 

[Kathryn]

So... the Christian faith is the "adult" one and the Jewish faith is for people with only a child's understanding and maturity?

I know it's still only morning, but I feel pretty safe in saying that this is the most chauvinistic thing I'll read all day.

Nope.

Most practicing Jews have a very different view of the OT than most practicing Christians, fundamentalists in particular. That's been my observation anyway.

Many fundamentalists take much or all of the OT literally - most practicing Jews don't. They focus on the allegory, the symbolism, etc much more than fundamentalist Christians. In other words, like the example of "God" telling us "Don't touch the stove," they realize, as do many non fundamentalist Christians do, that this does not literally mean, "Never touch a stove ever in your life." In other words, they have a more mature approach to the stories of the OT - often more mature than fundamentalist Christians.

Hope that clarifies my statement.

 

[Kathryn]

well if jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, why would god ask you sacrifice your child?

Right. He wouldn't. So what's your point?

 

[waitasec]

Right. He wouldn't. So what's your point?

that is why you wouldn't believe god would ask you to sacrifice your child.

however,

if you heard a voice telling you to stand on a street corner and tell everyone walking around you that they need to convert to christianity...would you?

 

[Kathryn]

that is why you wouldn't believe god would ask you to sacrifice your child.

however,

if you heard a voice telling you to stand on a street corner and tell everyone walking around you that they need to convert to christianity...would you?

I don't hear voices.

I know what you're trying to do here. But let's remove the God concept for a moment and just talk about our own inner conscience or subconscience. I'm assuming you have one of those, right? How do you determine whether an idea or an urge or a desire is something you should act upon?

 

[waitasec]

I don't hear voices.

you never here an inner voice in your head...?
with something as arbitrary as
"maybe i should call jennifer"

I know what you're trying to do here. But let's remove the God concept for a moment and just talk about our own inner conscience or subconscience. I'm assuming you have one of those, right? How do you determine whether an idea or an urge or a desire is something you should act upon?

excellent question!!!

and where i personally think this thread should turn to

if it's going to harm someone else or even myself...that would be a good indicator i should see a doctor...
but lets say a bus is coming and i sacrifice myself for my son...
it would be odd if i didn't do anything if i could which would indicate that i need to go see a doctor.

so really it just depends on the situation.
from this story, and i agree with you that this story has a layer of imagery.
the image i get from this story is that you follow your gut instinct/inner voice...with a twist...without questioning it.

 

[Hope]

I think the main point of the Abraham/Isaac story is Abraham's radical trust and faith in God. He trusted God's goodness even in the face of a seemingly irrational command to sacrifice his son. If one reads the story carefully, one will see the extraordinary faith he possessed.

"And Abraham said to his young men, 'Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go yonder; and we will worship and return to you.'" ~Genesis 22:5

"And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, 'My father!' And he said, 'Here I am, my son.' And he said, 'Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?' And Abraham said, 'God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.'" ~Genesis 22:7-8

Abraham didn't seem to doubt for a second that Isaac would return alive and that God would somehow spare him. He trusted God's goodness implicitly. Even in the face of a situation that seemed horribly wrong.

Job echoed a similar sentiment, in the face of all his suffering, when he said, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him."

So I think God's ultimate goodness, and our faith in His goodness, in the face of all that might seem contrary to His goodness, is the main point of this story.

 

[waitasec]

I think the main point of the Abraham/Isaac story is Abraham's radical trust and faith in God.

i agree. and, imo, anything that condones blind trust is not to be trusted.

 

[helpmeplease]

I think the main point of the Abraham/Isaac story is Abraham's radical trust and faith in God. He trusted God's goodness even in the face of a seemingly irrational command to sacrifice his son. If one reads the story carefully, one will see the extraordinary faith he possessed.

"And Abraham said to his young men, 'Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go yonder; and we will worship and return to you.'" ~Genesis 22:5

"And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, 'My father!' And he said, 'Here I am, my son.' And he said, 'Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?' And Abraham said, 'God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.'" ~Genesis 22:7-8

Abraham didn't seem to doubt for a second that Isaac would return alive and that God would somehow spare him. He trusted God's goodness implicitly. Even in the face of a situation that seemed horribly wrong.

Job echoed a similar sentiment, in the face of all his suffering, when he said, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him."

So I think God's ultimate goodness, and our faith in His goodness, in the face of all that might seem contrary to His goodness, is the main point of this story.

I think you have the story backwards. Your god was sadistic.

 

[Kathryn]

you never here an inner voice in your head...?
with something as arbitrary as
"maybe i should call jennifer"

Everyone's experiences differ. No, I don't generally hear voices in my head though.

There are two exceptions to that statement though that I recall from my life. One of them was definitely a spiritual experience and I clearly heard the statement "I know your heart."

The only other time I recall hearing a "voice in my head" wasn't really a voice in my head, though I did hear someone speak and that someone was nowhere in sight. This was when I was laying on the floor passed out from carbon monoxide poisoning, and nearly dead. Suddenly I heard the most urgent, awful voice (by awful, I mean awe-ful - hard to describe), and that voice clearly said, "WAKE UP. WAKE UP." It was so urgent and loud and unavoidable that it seemed to shake me. I didn't want to hear it because I was enjoying fading out of this life - but I simply could not ignore this voice, and it's a good thing I didn't, because if I had, I would be dead now.

When I told the doctors at the hospital about it, they told me - totally seriously - "Maybe it was your guardian angel - we can't explain it. We've never known of anyone who was already passed out, with this high a level of carbon monoxide as you have, to ever wake back up again. It's unexplainable. You should be dead."

So - I guess I was wrong when I said I never hear voices - but twice in fifty years isn't very often.

These two incidents DID get my attention though. They were nothing like those odd little urges or compulsions or desires that we have that clearly come from our subconscience. I can recognize those for what they are. There's a big, big difference.