BlandOatmeal
Active Member
Shalom Dantech
You posted some interesting things. I will try to comment on some of them here:
I hope you can appreciate, that I am not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you claiming that Christians are actually Jews? or that believing in the NT obliges one to behave as Jews? I think you will find considerable disagreement on these points from Jews, Christians and NT believers alike. It seems that whatever stance one takes on these matters, one is likely to get attacked.
In light of this, I will not take a stance concerning pork. I can tell you why I personally don't eat really treif foods: It is because I wish to eat and have fellowship with Jews and non-Jews alike, while causing as little offence as possible to anyone. You must surely know that in upstate Oregon, where I live, hardly any Jews keep kosher; but some do. In Jerusalem or Brooklyn, of course, matters would be different. I am not halachically Jewish, as you can see; I'm just a poor boy, trying to get along.
Concerning the details of Torah being "binding", I agree that they are. There are obviously some laws for Jews and others for non-Jews, some for Levites and others for non-Levites, etc. It isn't a "one size fits all" matter. Jews may not exact interest from a fellow Jew, for instance, but are free to exact interest from the gentiles. Only Levites are allowed to handle the holy things, etc. None of this has been annulled; this is an eternal covenant. That is what I understand.
Just what "binding" means, is another matter. What happens, for instance, if a Jew fails to wash between blessing the wine and blessing the bread? Does he become a non-Jew? And if a Jew eats pork, what then? Does he become a Gentile for the rest of his life? Is he to be stoned to death? I don't think so. In fact, the Jews say that if one is a Jew, he continues to be a Jew, even if he eats treif; and if one is not a Jew, he is free to eat treif. That is what the Jews say, not I.
Acts 15
[22] Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
[23] And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
[24] Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
[25] It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
[26] Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[27] We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
[28] For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
That ruling, curiously, concerned whether or not new believers ought to be circumcised. Jews today often neglect circumcision, while hundreds of millions of Gentiles undergo the operation (as did I). One Jew, in particular, was very negligent in these matters, namely, Moshe Rabenu: he did not have his own children circumcised (but his Midian wife did it); and a whole generation followed Moses through the wilderness with foreskins intact. What was the profit of requiring this of the Greeks? The Egyptians, Aramaeans and Arabs all circumcised their children, to no profit. Why should such an unprofitable thing be foisted on these others? They would certainly be rejected by the Jews anyway, just as the Jews rejected the Arabs and Egyptians.
Should the Gentiles follow the Jews, in their practices? Consider this:
2 Chron 36
[20] And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:
[21] To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.
Eretz Israel lay fallow for 70 years, to rest after 420 years of Sabbatical Year violations -- violations by the Jews during a time when the House of David ruled in Jerusalem. And after that? Under the Persians, Greeks and Romans, did the land enjoy its Sabbaths? Now that the Jews are returned to the land, does it lay fallow every seventh year? Of course not! And the rabbis of Israel bless this activity, using phoney land purchases to excuse the Jews from obeying the Law! Do you, therefore, presume to foist this Jewish morality on the goiim?
I am not a posken. Peter was, along with the church in Jerusalem; and they judged as they did. So be it.
Just answer me this: Hardly any Jews observe Torah, to meet your satisfaction -- not even in Israel, where it's harder NOT to be frum in many places than it is to BE frum. Let me quote Paul, who is so maligned by some here:
Gal 2
[11] But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
[12] For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
[13] And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
[14] But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
I think that cuts to the core of what you're saying here. Even among the Jews, there are those who look down their noses at their fellow Jews, treating them as thought they were unclean. What profit is there, for a Gentile to behave this way? Will Jesus be more pleased with them, than he was with the Pharisees?
You posted some interesting things. I will try to comment on some of them here:
You seem to be hopping around a bit here. You self-describe as a Jew; so I assume that when you say "binding on us", you are saying "binding on us [modern, Pharisaical] Jews". Then you go on talking about a "Christian" who eats pork, while "claiming to believe in the NT"....it has been pointed out God knows how many times in this thread, numerous verses from the Torah that say that it is binding on us forever, and is everlasting. So a Christian who eats pork, while claiming to believe in the NT is not making much sense.
I hope you can appreciate, that I am not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you claiming that Christians are actually Jews? or that believing in the NT obliges one to behave as Jews? I think you will find considerable disagreement on these points from Jews, Christians and NT believers alike. It seems that whatever stance one takes on these matters, one is likely to get attacked.
In light of this, I will not take a stance concerning pork. I can tell you why I personally don't eat really treif foods: It is because I wish to eat and have fellowship with Jews and non-Jews alike, while causing as little offence as possible to anyone. You must surely know that in upstate Oregon, where I live, hardly any Jews keep kosher; but some do. In Jerusalem or Brooklyn, of course, matters would be different. I am not halachically Jewish, as you can see; I'm just a poor boy, trying to get along.
Concerning the details of Torah being "binding", I agree that they are. There are obviously some laws for Jews and others for non-Jews, some for Levites and others for non-Levites, etc. It isn't a "one size fits all" matter. Jews may not exact interest from a fellow Jew, for instance, but are free to exact interest from the gentiles. Only Levites are allowed to handle the holy things, etc. None of this has been annulled; this is an eternal covenant. That is what I understand.
Just what "binding" means, is another matter. What happens, for instance, if a Jew fails to wash between blessing the wine and blessing the bread? Does he become a non-Jew? And if a Jew eats pork, what then? Does he become a Gentile for the rest of his life? Is he to be stoned to death? I don't think so. In fact, the Jews say that if one is a Jew, he continues to be a Jew, even if he eats treif; and if one is not a Jew, he is free to eat treif. That is what the Jews say, not I.
These are matters of halacha -- of "Messianic Jewish" halacha, to be precise. You seem to be expecting followers of Jesus to consider themselves Jewish. Very well; let them have their own minhag, and let them posken for themselves. You know that they have done this, and this was their ruling on a weighty matter:My arguments are more pointed towards all the Christians who don't follow the laws of the Torah. To me, the NT could only be acceptable, if you accept on you the laws of the Torah as well.
Acts 15
[22] Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
[23] And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
[24] Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
[25] It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
[26] Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[27] We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
[28] For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
That ruling, curiously, concerned whether or not new believers ought to be circumcised. Jews today often neglect circumcision, while hundreds of millions of Gentiles undergo the operation (as did I). One Jew, in particular, was very negligent in these matters, namely, Moshe Rabenu: he did not have his own children circumcised (but his Midian wife did it); and a whole generation followed Moses through the wilderness with foreskins intact. What was the profit of requiring this of the Greeks? The Egyptians, Aramaeans and Arabs all circumcised their children, to no profit. Why should such an unprofitable thing be foisted on these others? They would certainly be rejected by the Jews anyway, just as the Jews rejected the Arabs and Egyptians.
Should the Gentiles follow the Jews, in their practices? Consider this:
2 Chron 36
[20] And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:
[21] To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.
Eretz Israel lay fallow for 70 years, to rest after 420 years of Sabbatical Year violations -- violations by the Jews during a time when the House of David ruled in Jerusalem. And after that? Under the Persians, Greeks and Romans, did the land enjoy its Sabbaths? Now that the Jews are returned to the land, does it lay fallow every seventh year? Of course not! And the rabbis of Israel bless this activity, using phoney land purchases to excuse the Jews from obeying the Law! Do you, therefore, presume to foist this Jewish morality on the goiim?
I am not a posken. Peter was, along with the church in Jerusalem; and they judged as they did. So be it.
Just answer me this: Hardly any Jews observe Torah, to meet your satisfaction -- not even in Israel, where it's harder NOT to be frum in many places than it is to BE frum. Let me quote Paul, who is so maligned by some here:
Gal 2
[11] But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
[12] For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
[13] And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
[14] But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
I think that cuts to the core of what you're saying here. Even among the Jews, there are those who look down their noses at their fellow Jews, treating them as thought they were unclean. What profit is there, for a Gentile to behave this way? Will Jesus be more pleased with them, than he was with the Pharisees?
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