-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
For the Christians (Abrahamic only)
- Thread starter dantech
- Start date
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
Hi, Sherm
Sorry for not getting back sooner. I was busy with other things. I am happy to see your post. As you say, we agree about many things. I'm just trying to somehow condense what you said here, and give some comprehansive answers.
1. You can't work your way into heaven. God's presence is by "invitation only"
2. I agree with the attitude of Apostle Paul:
Rom 9
[1] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[2] That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Paul's motivation was not go "be saved" at all! He took it as a given, that God would receive those who have an earnest desire to carry out His will -- something which Paul devoted his life to; but if it would please God to damn him, Paul would even accept this gleefully; because Paul had an understanding of salvation and damnation that transcended these things.
The big error of the Jews, in my opinion, is that the most religious of them think we can actually satisfy God's requirements. We cannot. Pleasing God isn't like completing a homework assignment -- after doing which, we're free to go out and play. I'm not wooing God; I'm married to Him; and I know that if I never seriously entertain the notion of leaving Him, He will never leave me. I'm not trying to do something so that He WILL accept me on the day of judgment: He HAS accepted me, and I marvel at the fact!
Meanwhile,
3. Qoh 12
[13] Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
All of God's commandments to us stem from His first:
Gen. 1
[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion...,
which Jesus repeated:
John 8
[8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
[9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
[10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
[11] These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
[12] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
My computer is fritzing out big-time, so I have to leave and reboot...
Sorry for not getting back sooner. I was busy with other things. I am happy to see your post. As you say, we agree about many things. I'm just trying to somehow condense what you said here, and give some comprehansive answers.
I don't think I'm in that much of a minority concerning the "faith vs. works" conundrum. I was raised Roman Catholic, and we certainly didn't have a "once saved always saved" doctrine. Most believers I've known have struggled with the issue of salvation. I have myself, and have come to the following conclusions:
1. You can't work your way into heaven. God's presence is by "invitation only"
2. I agree with the attitude of Apostle Paul:
Rom 9
[1] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[2] That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Paul's motivation was not go "be saved" at all! He took it as a given, that God would receive those who have an earnest desire to carry out His will -- something which Paul devoted his life to; but if it would please God to damn him, Paul would even accept this gleefully; because Paul had an understanding of salvation and damnation that transcended these things.
The big error of the Jews, in my opinion, is that the most religious of them think we can actually satisfy God's requirements. We cannot. Pleasing God isn't like completing a homework assignment -- after doing which, we're free to go out and play. I'm not wooing God; I'm married to Him; and I know that if I never seriously entertain the notion of leaving Him, He will never leave me. I'm not trying to do something so that He WILL accept me on the day of judgment: He HAS accepted me, and I marvel at the fact!
Meanwhile,
3. Qoh 12
[13] Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
All of God's commandments to us stem from His first:
Gen. 1
[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion...,
which Jesus repeated:
John 8
[8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
[9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
[10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
[11] These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
[12] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
My computer is fritzing out big-time, so I have to leave and reboot...
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
Hi, Sherm & Pegg
(I believe you're both non-Trinitarian monotheists. That should have no bearing, but I'm just making sure we're on the same wavelength).
I don't think we will be getting communications straight from companies of prophets. I don't actually know what the Millenium has in store in that regard. Paul said,
1 Cor 14
[5] I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
and Peter said,
1 Pet 4
[11] If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God...
Prophecy is apparently for this present time, though I have seen the office mis-used by pretty much everyone claiming to be a prophet. And if both Paul and Peter earnestly expected the common believers to be able to prophesy, should we expect a radical departure from this in the Millenium?
I'm even more mistrustful of "companies" of prophets than of freelance ones. Don't the Mormons have companies of prophets? In some Pentecostal churches, prophets are a dime a dozen, and they have spontaneous "prophecy battles" at times during their meetings. The most adamant prophet, in my limited experience, is the pastor's wife.
If anyone thinks he/she has some insight into what will happen in the Millenium, BASED ON SCRIPTURE, of course, please share it here. Expect to be contradicted and interrupted -- we are Jewish at heart here. I'm not even certain that Messiah will stick around on earth for 1000 years; in fact, I rather doubt it. And if he did, people might use "Jesus trackers" like GPSs and fuzzbusters, to do whatever they want. How about this Millennial prophecy:
Zech 14
[18] And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
[19] This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
That tells me that people in the Millennium will be little more eager than the historical Jews were, to obey God. It's all very mysterious to me.
Guys & Gals,
Please don't cop out on me. I want a sincere discussion. I don't bite. :slap: Please respond.
Shalom shalom :camp:
Sorry Roger, I should have said LAW, not covenant. No one could fullfill the Law because we are "seed of Adam," Jesus was and was not. He was able to keep ALL the commandments as set forth by The Father. By doing this, and becoming the perfect sacrifice we can be free of sin itself, but only through Him. Now this is not to say that the Law should be abandoned for there are still penalties to be paid for it here and now. The Law is now more of a recipie for a happy and fullfilling life for those called to it, and even if a person isnt called to it, it can keep satan from having an inroad to our lives. So if we do unintentionally break these Laws, we are always able to rebuke and turn from that through the power of Christ.
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
(no response :menorah
arcanum
Active Member
Well the early Christians were all Jews and did continue observe Jewish law. Jesus wasn't trying to create a new religion and it wasn't a separate faith in the early years but a small movement within Judaism. Then along comes Paul who some say hijacked the early Jesus movement and turned into something different, he essentially created his own gentile friendly version that became Christianity, which is what he took to the gentile world. After that it mutated and absorbed more and more non Jewish elements and so this is what we have today.
roger1440
I do stuff
See, the dead can be resurrected.Oh, this thread is back
dantech
Well-Known Member
See, the dead can be resurrected.
Not yet, the Messianic era isn't upon us.
roger1440
I do stuff
Here is something I had posted on another thread last night. Am I right?
"Isnt true that the very concept of the Jewish Messiah isnt in Jewish scripture? It is a concept created by the ancient Jews by piecing together specific verses from different authors, from different books written at different times in different places? Isnt true the authors used poetry to convey their message? Isnt true this same poetry used metaphors and/or symbols? Isnt true there has never been an agreement among ALL the Jews how to interpret these verses?" http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3676399-post16.html
"Before we can discuss if Jesus is or is not the promised Jewish Messiah, we have to come to an agreement what exactly is meant by the term Messiah." http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3676420-post17.html
dantech
Well-Known Member
The fact that Jews will argue about everything and anything doesn't help your case, in any way.
My personal opinion is that the Tanach is truth. If there is one single prophesy about the Messiah that someone has not accomplished, then he could not be the Messiah. That's it, that's all.
The concept of the Jewish Messiah is, or is not in Jewish scripture depending on who you ask and what they qualify as Jewish scripture. Is it all summed and gathered in one single source? no. But why would that matter?
If I believe each one of these prophets to be just that, prophets, then what each one says is truth. It doesn't matter if they had their prophecies with 2000 years in between, as long as they are considered prophets.
All Jews, who believe in the Jewish Messiah, believe that he will restore our tribes, built the third everlasting temple, and be present in a time in which the whole world knows God, and has a universal knowledge of him. At least, that's what I think, and that's what scripture shows, regardless of poems or times.
Universal knowledge of God and world peace can't be seen in a sense of metaphor, I really don't think.
Anyway, we are getting off-topic. It wasn't the purpose of this thread. You wish to discuss about Jesus being the Messiah? Either start a new thread, or join one of the couple hundred that already exist. (And send me the link by PM so I know it's up for debate.)
Tumah
Veteran Member
I don't think that's what he was trying to say. I think he was just asking if its true that there are no Scriptural verses that explicitly mention a Messiah and whether all Jews agree on what the Messiah actually is.
roger1440
I do stuff
Yeah, I am not saying the Jews are right or wrong about the concept of the Messiah. That is another issue. All Im saying is that the different Jewish denominations or sects are not in agreement on the very concept of the Messiah.
roger1440
I do stuff
Correct me if Im wrong. All the different sects or denominations of Judaism have the belief in the Messiah, at least the sects and denominations we know of. The Judaism of the 21st century are descendants from the Pharisees. Therefore modern day Jews inherited a Pharisaic interpretation of the Messiah. Is this true?
dantech
Well-Known Member
I'm honestly not sure about the different sects. I think most who do believe in one, will just agree with the Rambam's idea of the Messiah.
Last edited:
Tumah
Veteran Member
I think that the degree of a belief in the Messiah will depends on the degree a given denomination attempts to retain the original Pharisaical system. I think such a belief is going to be much less dominant towards the Renewal/Humanistic side of the spectrum.
InChrist
Free4ever
Yes, it is clear that Jesus agrees the OT is the word of God, but while He definitely says not a single iota or dot of the law shall pass away, the quote of His below does not say that "we" should fulfill these laws. It says until all things have taken place, or until all is fulfilled in some versions. It you will notice He first states that He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. So you see according to these scriptures it is Jesus who fulfills the requirements of the law, not "we". No one has ever been able to perfectly fulfill all the requirements of the law completely down to the smallest letter...therefore the need of a perfect Savior and representative on behalf of humanity who could and did.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17-18)
Non-Jewish Christians do not keep the Sabbath, kosher food and other non-moral laws because they were specifically given to the nation of Israel the purpose of revealing the holiness of God and separating them from the idolatrous nations surrounding them until the time of the promised Seed/Messiah (Genesis 3:15; Galatians 3:19-25)
The Christian's Relationship to the Mosaic Law
I think it could only be that Jesus was both a descendent David and the son of God if He was/is fully human and fully God, which is what I believe the scriptures show to be true.
roger1440
I do stuff
Rambam's idea of the Messiah had evolved from what the Pharisees believed, true? During the first century there are three major sects of Jews. The Pharisees and Sadducees are the main players on the stage of Judaism. Each is at odds on some Jewish theological concepts. The Sadducees become extinct sometime after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. They left no writings behind. Either they wrote nothing or there writings had been destroyed. There is no way of knowing. The third group is the Essenes. They had believed main stream Judaism had become corrupt. They basically said to themselves screw this and formed their own communities in the desert. Not much is known about them either. Scholars are not in agreement about the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is very possible there were other smaller sects during the first century. Each sect must believe they have the right interpretation of the Messiah idea. Rather than discuss the differences what are the similarities? To put it another way, what is the common denominator among all the sects concerning the Messiah?
dantech
Well-Known Member
The common denominator between pretty much any Jew who accepts Jewish scripture, the Rambam, and Pharisees, I believe, are all the prophecies that we find about the Messiah throughout Jewish scripture.
I'm not sure what you are looking for as an answer.
Here is a list of prophecies, which I am sure you already know, that Metis posted in another thread.