For Those Who Believe in the Story of Lucifer

[Magic Man]

For those who believe this story, how do you reconcile the idea of an angel, a being without free will, choosing to not do God's will? I'm honestly curious. This isn't supposed to be some kind of back-handed insult.

 

[tomspug]

For those who believe this story, how do you reconcile the idea of an angel, a being without free will, choosing to not do God's will? I'm honestly curious. This isn't supposed to be some kind of back-handed insult.

If an angel chose not to do God's will, obviously the angel would, by necessity, have had free will. I don't see the dilemma of Lucifer as any different from the dilemma of humanity.

 

[Magic Man]

If an angel chose not to do God's will, obviously the angel would, by necessity, have had free will. I don't see the dilemma of Lucifer as any different from the dilemma of humanity.

It's just that every time I've heard the story, it talks about Lucifer's anger over the fact that humans had free will, and the angels didn't. So, that's why I wonder how you reconcile that with his going against God's will. I know not everyone believes this, but this is directed toward those who do.

 

[rheff78]

It's just that every time I've heard the story, it talks about Lucifer's anger over the fact that humans had free will, and the angels didn't. So, that's why I wonder how you reconcile that with his going against God's will. I know not everyone believes this, but this is directed toward those who do.

Well, angels did have free will, hence the story. But Lucifer (and anyone correct if I'm wrong here) wasn't necessarily upset about humans having free will, but that he viewed God as putting humans above angels.

 

[Magic Man]

Well, angels did have free will, hence the story. But Lucifer (and anyone correct if I'm wrong here) wasn't necessarily upset about humans having free will, but that he viewed God as putting humans above angels.

I understand. This is why I ask. The way I've heard it the angels didn't have free will, and that's why Lucifer thought God was putting humans above angels. Maybe I've just heard a different version then most, but that's part of my question, I guess.

 

[ChristineES]

I used to believe what was commonly taught me in Sunday School about Lucifer being an angel, but there is no place in the bible where Lucifer is called an angel.

 

[EtuMalku]

I am just curious as to where this Lucifer story comes from?
If there is a link to read it that would be appreciated.
I'll stay outta this one since I do not see Lucifer in that Light.

 

[Random]

When we talk about Lucifer here, I take it we are not referring to the title of the Babylonian king criticised by Isaiah in the Bible, or the title attributed in said book to Jesus in the NT? Ok...

So then, we are referring to the Light-bringer, the Morning Star, the Angel...but in an extra-Biblical context, because he is Fallen: as according to St. Jerome who gave the concept the authority of tradition, which was later picked up by Milton and other poets and mythographers. Correct? So we're really talking the Paradise Lost scenario, which is according to some a fictionalized dramatic piece. Yes?

We need to know what we mean when we say "Lucifer", that's all. Can we agree before speculating as to whether he is (as is being assumed) one and the same as the figure of Satan, the tempter/opponent of God?

Now maybe Paradise Lost is based on some esoteric secret the Church held for a long time, maybe its a published dramatic rendition of some hidden Scriptural thing we did not know about...maybe. I don't know.

I do not believe that angels (if they exist as claimed) would have freewill, in that I agree with the Islamic interpretation of their divine nature. Yet that does leave us with a quandry...how could Lucifer, IF the Paradise Lost story is true, disobey and enter into conflict with God and his all-pervasive Deterministic creation?

The only answer I can think of, again assuming the conceit of Paradise Lost scenario being true, is that maybe Lucifer as the original leader of the Angels had a sort of freewill so that he could perform the function God set him.

 

[Magic Man]

I am just curious as to where this Lucifer story comes from?
If there is a link to read it that would be appreciated.
I'll stay outta this one since I do not see Lucifer in that Light.

I honestly don't know. As I said, maybe what I heard was not the norm. Maybe I just put two things together that didn't go. Maybe a better question from me would be "Has anybody heard this version of the story?"

 

[Charity]

Lucifer is a Latin word for Light Bearer. The word Lucifer was translated from the Septuagint as dawn bearer. Therefore we called him the Angel of Light or Lucifer. Ezekiel 28:14 calls him the anointed cherub (angel) Lucifer was motivated by his own pride and led a revolt in Heaven and was cast out with a third of the angels .:angel2: Thank you and God bless you.....Charity

 

[Magic Man]

Lucifer is a Latin word for Light Bearer. The word Lucifer was translated from the Septuagint as dawn bearer. Therefore we called him the Angel of Light or Lucifer. Ezekiel 28:14 calls him the anointed cherub (angel) Lucifer was motivated by his own pride and led a revolt in Heaven and was cast out with a third of the angels .:angel2: Thank you and God bless you.....Charity

OK. Do you agree with the details I've brought up, and do you believe the story to be true?

 

[Willamena]

Wikipedia has an entry on the story.
War of Heaven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Booko]

I am just curious as to where this Lucifer story comes from?
If there is a link to read it that would be appreciated.
I'll stay outta this one since I do not see Lucifer in that Light.

I was wondering about that myself. Lucifer only gets the one mention in Isaiah 14.

I'd love to hear a Jewish perspective, particularly from someone who can read the text in the original.

 

[rheff78]

OK. Do you agree with the details I've brought up, and do you believe the story to be true?

Ok, I believe the story to be true. It's never been said that angels didn't have free will. There is only one perfect creation in all the universe, God. Nothing is on the same level, even angels, so yes, they can choose to rebel against God. Lucifer was upset that humans could have numerous chances at redemption, i.e. sin and get your sins forgiven. No angel had that choice. He was prideful and thus sineed against God.

 

[Magic Man]

Ok, I believe the story to be true. It's never been said that angels didn't have free will. There is only one perfect creation in all the universe, God. Nothing is on the same level, even angels, so yes, they can choose to rebel against God. Lucifer was upset that humans could have numerous chances at redemption, i.e. sin and get your sins forgiven. No angel had that choice. He was prideful and thus sineed against God.

Thank you. Now, how could they have free will and stay in heaven, that is, before the "Fall"? Did they just not exercise their free will and therefore not sin, or did they sin but get to stay in heaven?

 

[Willamena]

This is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to post it here anyway, if you don't mind.

Joseph Campbell (1972: p.148-149) illustrates an unorthodox Islamic reading of Lucifer's fall from Heaven which champions Lucifer's eclipsing love for God:

One of the most amazing images of love that I know is Persian – a mystical Persian representation as Satan as the most loyal lover of God. You will have heard the old legend of how, when God created the angels, he commanded them to pay worship to no one but himself; but then, creating man, he commanded them to bow in reverence to this most noble of his works, and Lucifer refused – because, we are told, of his pride. However, according to this Muslim reading of his case, it was rather because he loved and adored God so deeply and intensely that he could not bring himself to bow before anything else, and because he refused to bow down to something that was of less superiority than him. (Since he was made of fire, and man from clay.) And it was for that that he was flung into Hell, condemned to exist there forever, apart from his love.
​

This interpretation of the satanic rebellion described in the Quran is seen by some Sufi teachers such as Mansur Al-Hallaj (in his 'Tawasin') as a predestined scenario in which Iblis-Shaitan plays the role of tragic and jealous lover who, unable to perceive the Divine Image in Adam and capable only of seeing the exterior, disobeyed the divine mandate to bow down. His refusal (according to the Tawasin) was due to a misconceived idea of God's uniqueness and because of his refusal to abandon himself to God in love. ... The Sufi teacher Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan taught that 'Luciferian Light' is Light which has become dislocated from the Divine Source and is thus associated with the seductive false light of the lower ego which lures humankind into self-centred delusion. Here Lucifer represents what the Sufis term the 'Nafs', the ego.

I found that astoundingly interesting.

 

[Quiddity]

Thank you. Now, how could they have free will and stay in heaven, that is, before the "Fall"? Did they just not exercise their free will and therefore not sin, or did they sin but get to stay in heaven?

Unless I'm misunderstanding, you seem to be saying that if one uses the faculty of free will they will sin. We don't believe that. People use free will and not sin.

 

[Magic Man]

Unless I'm misunderstanding, you seem to be saying that if one uses the faculty of free will they will sin. We don't believe that. People use free will and not sin.

Wouldn't that mean they are perfect then? I thought the distinction between perfect and imperfect was sin.

 

[rheff78]

Thank you. Now, how could they have free will and stay in heaven, that is, before the "Fall"? Did they just not exercise their free will and therefore not sin, or did they sin but get to stay in heaven?

They had free will, but chose not to disobey God.

 

[Magic Man]

This is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to post it here anyway, if you don't mind.

I found that astoundingly interesting.

That is very interesting. But please don't ever go off-topic in my thread again!