For Those Who Believe in the Story of Lucifer

[Storm]

Yeah, I've heard it's like that.

 

[lockyfan]

what really gets confusing is when you posit Lucifer was ALSO the snake in Gensis. Whew! Howd he do that number? I mean, he goes and gets mankind to sin, thus "falling", thus getting all serpent-kind cursed to crawl on its belly (but somehow the devil winds up not being a snake later in the bible), and fulfilling gods plan to have people move out of eden so he could renovate for the end times! not only did he do what god wanted but he gets the bad rap for it so god can keep his hands clean!---poor guy!

I think if god created the devil he must have done so on purpose, in order to tempt people. (this is how it was envisioned originally). and for this reason the devil was given free will, because it would not be possible to carry out this duty if he was being directed by god. that is, if you actually believe in a literal devil. otehrwise it may be this devil figure is just an anthropomorphisation of human misery and suffering we occasion to visit on each other, call it the instinct to hate/destroy other people---all our base emotions are embodied in this idea of "satan", but its not a real thing separate from us. perhaps thinking it is is simply a convenient way for us humans to blame someone else for our own cruelty.

Satan used the snake to talk to eve Like a ventriliquist uses its voice on a dummy. Satan is refered to in revelation as being the Original Serpent
revelation 12:9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him

That took place in the Lords day, which started at the end of "time of the nations" or "gentile times" which happened in 1914.

God created humans perfect, but with free will, he told Adam and Eve if they ate of the fruit of that particular tree, they would die. satan lied to them, thus challenging Jehovah God, God never wanted us to have sin, but the tree was placed there, so that Adam and Eve could prove their ability to listen and do what God wanted them to do. It was notl ike they didn't have any other food, it wasn't a difficult choice. and they disobeyed God, becuase satan lied to them.

God created Angels with Free will, when Satan saw the humans he allowed himself to grow a desire to rule them instead of God ruling them, o he again lied and then challenged God's name by saying that God was lying to Adam and Eve and to us as well, but in reality Satan was the one lying.

Please remember Satan and Devil mean Opposer and slanderer respectively.

Jehovah God is descibed in the bible as a lover of justice Psalm 37:28 he is also described in 1 John 4:8 God is Love in Genesis 6:5-6 Consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart
Then when you look at 1 Peter 5:5-8 In like manner, YOU younger men, be in subjection to the older men. But all of YOU gird yourselves with lowliness of mind toward one another, because God opposes the haughty ones, but he gives undeserved kindness to the humble ones. Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt YOU in due time; while YOU throw all YOUR anxiety upon him, because he cares for YOU. Keep YOUR senses, be watchful. YOUR adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour [someone].

Satan is around looking to take down as many people as he can now that he only has a short time left to create mayhem upon the earth

 

[Azakel]

Lucifer has been acknowledged by the satanic bible as one of the four crown princes of hell, particularly that of the east.....Look it up for yourself, if it is in their bible then apparently they acknowledge his existence.........thank you Charity

No, go read the Satanic Bible and it will say right in there the it is Atheistic.

No, it's all metaphoric for them. LaVeyan Satanism is atheistic.

What she said. It's all metaphoric. I should know, I own a copy and have read it ^_^

 

[gnostic]

According to the Islamic literature and traditions, angels don't have free will. They always served God (or Allah in this case). Their version of Satan, is not a former angel, nor demon; their Satan is a jinn, and all jinns have free will.

As to the Christian version and late Jewish (2nd Temple) period, well Satan being former archangel did have free will. According to the Jewish literature Haggada (translation is called Legends of the Jews, volume 1, chapter 2, look up THE FALL OF SATAN), Satan rebelled, because he refused to bow to Adam, God's creation, so a test to prove who was smarter. Adam was able to name all the different species of animals, but Satan couldn't. Satan still refused to bow, so he, along with his followers, were banished from heaven.

Here is the relevant section:

THE FALL OF SATAN

The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels. They attempted to consume him with fire, and he would have perished, had not the protecting hand of God rested upon him, and established peace between him and the heavenly host. In particular, Satan was jealous of the first man, and his evil thoughts finally led to his fall. After Adam had been endowed with a soul, God invited all the angels to come and pay him reverence and homage. Satan, the greatest of the angels in heaven, with twelve wings, instead of six like all the others, refused to pay heed to the behest of God, saying, "Thou didst create us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now Thou dost command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which Thou didst fashion out of the dust of the ground!" God answered, "Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than thou." Satan demanded a trial of wit with Adam, and God assented thereto, saying: "I have created beasts, birds, and reptiles, I shall have them all come before thee and before Adam. If thou art able to give them names, I shall command Adam to show honor unto thee, and thou shalt rest next to the Shekinah of My glory. But if not, and Adam calls them by the names I have assigned to them, then thou wilt be subject to Adam, and he shall have a place in My garden, and cultivate it." Thus spake God, and He betook Himself to Paradise, Satan following Him. When Adam beheld God, he said to his wife, "O come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the Lord our Maker." Now Satan attempted to assign names to the animals. He failed with the first two that presented themselves, the ox and the cow. God led two others before him, the camel and the donkey, with the same result. Then God turned to Adam, and questioned him regarding the names of the same animals, framing His questions in such wise that the first letter of the first word was the same as the first letter of the name of the animal standing before him. Thus Adam divined the proper name, and Satan was forced to acknowledge the superiority of the first man. Nevertheless he broke out in wild outcries that reached the heavens, and he refused to do homage unto Adam as he had been bidden. The host of angels led by him did likewise, in spite of the urgent representations of Michael, who was the first to prostrate himself before Adam in order to show a good example to the other angels. Michael addressed Satan: "Give adoration to the image of God! But if thou doest it not, then the Lord God will break out in wrath against thee." Satan replied: "If He breaks out in wrath against me, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will be like the Most High! "At once God flung Satan and his host out of heaven, down to the earth, and from that moment dates the enmity between Satan and man.'

 

[lockyfan]

Revelation 12:7-12
And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”
Job 1:6-7
Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] Godentered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.
Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where do you come from?” At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.”

Job 2:1
Afterward it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also proceeded to enter right among them to take his station before Jehovah.

Satan/Lucifer was an angel in heaven, even after he caused Adam and eve to sin

 

[Katzpur]

For those who believe this story, how do you reconcile the idea of an angel, a being without free will, choosing to not do God's will? I'm honestly curious. This isn't supposed to be some kind of back-handed insult.

I've never heard it said that Lucifer didn't have free will. Where'd you get that from?

 

[Storm]

I've heard it, too Katz, though I couldn't cite a source. Not Lucifer specifically, but angels, which would include him.

 

[EtuMalku]

Wow, I've never heard such delusional talk in my life.

 

[Katzpur]

God created humans perfect, but with free will, he told Adam and Eve if they ate of the fruit of that particular tree, they would die. satan lied to them, thus challenging Jehovah God, God never wanted us to have sin, but the tree was placed there, so that Adam and Eve could prove their ability to listen and do what God wanted them to do. It was notl ike they didn't have any other food, it wasn't a difficult choice. and they disobeyed God, becuase satan lied to them.

I agree with you that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was placed in Eden so that Adam and Eve would have the opportunity to choose to obey God, but why do you believe that God permitted Satan to tempt them? Given the fact that they did not understand the difference between good and evil before eating from the tree, it's not all that hard to understand why the promise of godhood would have been appealing to them. They would have had their free will had the tree been placed there and they had been given instructions not to eat from it. Had Satan not been permitted to tempt them, they probably would have not given it much thought. They'd have simply obeyed. You said it wasn't a difficult choice because they had plenty of other food, but I'm sure you'll agree that they didn't eat from the tree because they were hungry. They ate from it because a being who was the epitome of evil was given free rein to offer them godhood in exchange for a bit from an apple. If God had wanted them to remain in Eden forever, He certainly could have made it much easier for that to happen, don't you think?

 

[lockyfan]

God didnt allow satan to tempt the. Satan who as an Angel who did have free will, chose to act on a desire of his to rule humans, and lied to Adam and eve, thus these two then sinned against God

What I said, Satan an angel who has free will just humans do, chose to act on his own free will to rule over humans.

Do you want me to say this again

can someone please point to the scripture that says that Angels dont have free will or the choice to chose?
Genesis 6:2
then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose.

this tells me that Angels have the free will to chose what they want to do.

 

[Storm]

God didnt allow satan to tempt the. Satan who as an Angel who did have free will, chose to act on a desire of his to rule humans, and lied to Adam and eve, thus these two then sinned against God

Whether Satan had free will or not, he was allowed to tempt them.

 

[Sola'lor]

For those who believe this story, how do you reconcile the idea of an angel, a being without free will, choosing to not do God's will? I'm honestly curious. This isn't supposed to be some kind of back-handed insult.

Angel's don't have free will?

 

[lockyfan]

Satan was not allowed to tempt then, he just did it.

thus the reason why he is going off into destruction like everyone else who follows him

 

[Storm]

Satan was not allowed to tempt then, he just did it.

thus the reason why he is going off into destruction like everyone else who follows him

1) Is God not omniscient?
2) Is God not omnipotent?

 

[Katzpur]

Satan was not allowed to tempt then, he just did it.

Could you clarify this statement, please? Are you saying that God was powerless to keep Satan out of the Garden, that his presence there was an unforseen glitch in God's plan?

 

[gnostic]

Could you clarify this statement, please? Are you saying that God was powerless to keep Satan out of the Garden, that his presence there was an unforseen glitch in God's plan?

It certainly would torpedo God's omniscient if he didn't foresee this. And if he can't prevent Satan (though I don't believe this serpent is Satan) from entering the Garden, then God is not omnipotent.

 

[lockyfan]

And if he can't prevent Satan (though I don't believe this serpent is Satan) from entering the Garden

gnostic


that is what you said right? Ok

Revelation 12:9
So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth

the original serpent hmm I wonder if that is this serpent,
Genesis 3:2-4
At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’” At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die

I believe he MISLEAD Eve then, hmm I wonder if this is the same serpent mentioned in revelation?

Omnipotent hey? you realise that this means ALL POWERFUL? huh? you dont think that god is All Powerful, you dont think he could wipe out the worldin one instance if he didn't want to? Obviously he doesnt want the world destroyed, but he has to allow the challenge laid down by satan to continue, otherwise, t would just be brought up by others. Parents do the same, you teach them things and tell them things, but if they dont listen an they get hurt, then they learn dont they, same thing here, Satan let his desire grow in his heart and he acted upon it! what is god going to do? once acted on satan had to then be allowed to continue, but the first ever prophesy of the bible is recorded in genesis
Genesis 3:15
And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”

The woman is God's heavenly organisation and that seed is Jesus. Jesus was killed in the flesh, but ascended to a higher plain and existance of King of God's Kingdom. that then explains the bruising in the heel part. Now that God's Kingdom is in place in Heaven, we are awaiting the final blow to satans seed (his organisation of angels and human rulers) and satan himself, to be dealt by God's King

oh and can one of you please quote a scripture from the bible, where it says in the exact words you said "Omniscent" and "Omnipotent" those exact two words please? so I can read and discern for myself? thanks

 

[gnostic]

Omnipotent hey? you realise that this means ALL POWERFUL? huh? you dont think that god is All Powerful, you dont think he could wipe out the worldin one instance if he didn't want to?

From a literary perspective, what I've seen in the Bible indicate that he is not omnipotent. In the book of Job, all I see is a manipulative braggart more than an all-powerful deity.

From a religious perspective, I am very doubtful of your God's existence, therefore the whole issue of omnipotent is moot.

 

[Sola'lor]

Why would God not want Satan to tempt people? Without Satan's temptation there would be no opposition to God's plan.

 

[rheff78]

It certainly would torpedo God's omniscient if he didn't foresee this. And if he can't prevent Satan (though I don't believe this serpent is Satan) from entering the Garden, then God is not omnipotent.

He did foresee it and he could have stopped it, but he still gave us and angels the choice. What good is God if all he did was create us and not give us free will. All he would have created was a world of mindless automatons.