For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[Trailblazer]

The same Jesus did not return and so the Bible shows that Baha'u'llah is a false Christ, and there are many of those.
Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

It is not Jesus speaking in Acts.

Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The disciples were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky and said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. It does not say that the disciples saw a body go up.

It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes sense since angels can see spirits. Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of a human being who had the Christ Spirit. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, the soul of Jesus that has always existed descended from heaven, by the will of God.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

It is Jesus speaking in John. The same Jesus is not going to return to earth.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[shunyadragon]

And yet according to the New Testament Baha'u'llah cannot be the return of Jesus because he is not the same Jesus and did not come in the way the Bible tells us he would.

I believe Bha'u''lah more specifically fulfills prophecies as cited. Your asserting a physical literal interpretation of the New Testament as you do with the Pentateuch, which simply id not in touch with reality. I prefer a more spiritual interpretation that would consider the nature of Christ as spiritual in "essence" iand in the return as in the promise"

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you – John 14:16-17

If he is not the return of Jesus, he is not the return of Jesus and any other things, conincidences, interpretations mean nothing.

Far too specific to be a coincidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

The disciples were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky and said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. It does not say that the disciple saw a body go up.

It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes sense since angels can see spirits. Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of a human being who had the Christ Spirit. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, the soul of Jesus that has always existed descended from heaven, by the will of God.

If we believe the Bible then we interpret it so that there is no contradiction.
With how you interpret John 14:19, John 17:11 and John 16:10 there is contradiction with Acts 1:9-11 and other passages.

With how I interpret John 14:19, John 17:11 and John 16:10 there is contradiction with Acts 1:9-11 and other passages.

We cannot explain Acts 1:9-11 and the other passages without saying that the Bible is wrong.

Yes we can, and I have done so on numerous occasions.

We can explain the John 14,16,17 passages simply by realising that Jesus was just saying that He was going to die and go to heaven and nobody would be able to see Him.

Those passages are not saying no one would see Jesus in heaven. They are Jesus saying no one will ever see Jesus on earth again.
Obviously nobody can see Jesus in heaven, not until they die and go to heaven.

Jesus cannot have meant that His disciples never see Him again (as John 16:10 suggests with your interpretation) because we are told in other passages that not only the disciples but also everyone would see Him when He returns.

Those verses are not referring to Jesus. They are referring to the return of Christ who was another man.
The disciples could not see Jesus if Jesus returned unless Jesus had returned during the lifetime of the disciples.
Everyone could not see the return of Christ since that is logically impossible.

 

[Brian2]

It is not Jesus speaking in Acts.

Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The disciples were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky and said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. It does not say that the disciples saw a body go up.

It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes sense since angels can see spirits. Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of a human being who had the Christ Spirit. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, the soul of Jesus that has always existed descended from heaven, by the will of God.

The disciples saw Jesus ascend.
Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

It is Jesus speaking in John. The same Jesus is not going to return to earth.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

It is Jesus speaking when He said that He would come back also. (John 14:3)
It is Jesus speaking when He identifies Himself as the Son of Man and when He speaks about the Son of Man coming to raise the dead,,,,,,,,,from their graves,,,,,,,,, and judge everyone etc.
It is Jesus speaking when He said that the Father has given all judgement to Jesus.
It is amazing how much of the Bible Baha'u'llah trashes with his doctrines.

 

[Brian2]

I believe Bha'u''lah more specifically fulfills prophecies as cited. Your asserting a physical literal interpretation of the New Testament as you do with the Pentateuch, which simply id not in touch with reality. I prefer a more spiritual interpretation that would consider the nature of Christ as spiritual in "essence" iand in the return as in the promise"

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you – John 14:16-17

So you see John 14:16-17 and don't notice that the promise is to His disciples and that it says that the Comforter dwells in them and shall be in them.
The Comforter sounds like an invisible Spirit to me.

Far too specific to be a coincidence.

What is specific about an Edict of Toleration in 1844 saying that Muslim apostates would not be killed, and which Baha'i says is when Jews started returning to their homeland.

 

[Brian2]

With how I interpret John 14:19, John 17:11 and John 16:10 there is contradiction with Acts 1:9-11 and other passages.

Yep

Yes we can, and I have done so on numerous occasions.

No.

Those verses are not referring to Jesus. They are referring to the return of Christ who was another man.
The disciples could not see Jesus if Jesus returned unless Jesus had returned during the lifetime of the disciples.
Everyone could not see the return of Christ since that is logically impossible.

Rev 1:7 does not mean that every ey will see Him coming on the clouds. But when He returns everyone will see Him. He is going to judge everyone face to face after all.

 

[Trailblazer]

Those scriptures are you cherrypicking verses and ignoring the context and ignoring that many other passages tell us that Jesus would return.
You don't care if you make unanswerable contradictions by your interpretations. The truth of the whole Bible means nothing to you, as long as you can cherry pick verses, the rest of the Bible can be thrown into the rubbish bin.

That is what you do, cherry-pick verses, and you only have a few verses (Acts 1:9-11) that say that the same Jesus will return as He went up.
which are not even Jesus speaking.

The truth of the whole Bible means nothing to you, as long as you can cherry pick verses, the rest of the Bible can be thrown into the rubbish bin.

Rev 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

That verse is not about Jesus.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to coming back to earth again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11).

John 14:2-3 is Jesus speaking to His disciples. It is not Jesus promising anyone else He will return to earth. When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not talking about His physical body returning to earth, He was referring to His Spirit coming again, which it did, in another person who was the return of Christ with a new name (Isaiah 62:2, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 3:12)

Jesus said to the disciples “I will come again, and receive you unto myself” Jesus knew He was going to heaven, and He was telling His disciples that He would prepare a place for them in heaven so they could be with Him in heaven -- that where I am, there ye may be also.

Hypothetically speaking, if Jesus returned to earth now, the disciples could not 'receive Jesus' since the disciples are no longer living on earth.

John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

That was not Jesus saying “Yes, I am coming soon” since Jesus did not write the Book of Revelation.

 

[Trailblazer]

The disciples saw Jesus ascend.
Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

No, The disciples did not see Jesus ascend since there was nothing to see, since only the spirit of Jesus ascended and one cannot see a spirit.
Two men dressed in white (angels) stood beside the disciples and they said to the disciples: “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

It is Jesus speaking when He said that He would come back also. (John 14:3)

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to coming back to earth again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11).

John 14:2-3 is Jesus speaking to His disciples. It is not Jesus promising anyone else He will return to earth. When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not talking about His physical body returning to earth, He was referring to His Spirit coming again, which it did, in another person who was the return of the Christ spirit with a new name (Isaiah 62:2, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 3:12)

Jesus said to the disciples “I will come again, and receive you unto myself” Jesus knew He was going to heaven, and He was telling His disciples that He would prepare a place for them in heaven so they could be with Him in heaven -- that where I am, there ye may be also.

Hypothetically speaking, if Jesus returned to earth now, the disciples could not 'receive Jesus' since the disciples are no longer living on earth.

John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.

It is Jesus speaking when He identifies Himself as the Son of Man and when He speaks about the Son of Man coming to raise the dead,,,,,,,,,from their graves,,,,,,,,, and judge everyone etc.
It is Jesus speaking when He said that the Father has given all judgement to Jesus.
It is amazing how much of the Bible Baha'u'llah trashes with his doctrines.

Why change the subject? We are not talking about those verses. We are talking about the return of Christ.

 

[Trailblazer]

Rev 1:7 does not mean that every eye will see Him coming on the clouds. But when He returns everyone will see Him. He is going to judge everyone face to face after all.

“In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muhammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 220

The Day of Judgment

God is judging everyone right now.

“Dost thou believe thou hast the power to frustrate His Will, to hinder Him from executing His judgment, or to deter Him from exercising His sovereignty? Pretendest thou that aught in the heavens or in the earth can resist His Faith? No, by Him Who is the Eternal Truth! Nothing whatsoever in the whole of creation can thwart His Purpose. Cast away, therefore, the mere conceit thou dost follow, for mere conceit can never take the place of truth. Be thou of them that have truly repented and returned to God, the God Who hath created thee, Who hath nourished thee, and made thee a minister among them that profess thy faith.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 220

 

[Truthseeker]

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Do you believe that a physical Jesus went up to heaven? I can understand early Christians believing this, but not today, when the physical heaven is well established as being a vacuum once you get that far, with innumerable stars, many billions of light years away.

 

[Truthseeker]

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Like I implied in a previous post, there is no way Jesus went to a physical heaven in a physical body, which, by the way casts doubt that Jesus' had a physical resurrection. The same author (Luke) is also quoted in the Gospel of Luke as the gold standard by Christians that Jesus' resurrection was physical. Modern science shows that this author is unreliable.

 

[Truthseeker]

He went to a false Christ, a different Jesus, and started attacking the Bible and the gospel.

He had a different understanding of the Bible. How is that attacking the Bible?

 

[Brian2]

That is what you do, cherry-pick verses, and you only have a few verses (Acts 1:9-11) that say that the same Jesus will return as He went up.
which are not even Jesus speaking.

The truth of the whole Bible means nothing to you, as long as you can cherry pick verses, the rest of the Bible can be thrown into the rubbish bin.

Whether it is said by Jesus or not does not matter. You deny that Jesus said that He will come back (eg John 14:3 etc), so you don't really care if Jesus said it or not.
Apart from that it is good to see that you acknowledge that there is a passage that says "the same Jesus will return as He went up".

That verse is not about Jesus.

Rev 1:7 is about someone who was pierced.
If we read what is before Rev 1:7 we read:

Rev 1:6.............................To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

So the one freed us from our sins by his blood is the one in verse 7 who was pierced and is coming with the clouds. That is what it says.

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to coming back to earth again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11).

John 14:2-3 is Jesus speaking to His disciples. It is not Jesus promising anyone else He will return to earth. When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not talking about His physical body returning to earth, He was referring to His Spirit coming again, which it did, in another person who was the return of Christ with a new name (Isaiah 62:2, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 3:12)

Jesus said to the disciples “I will come again, and receive you unto myself” Jesus knew He was going to heaven, and He was telling His disciples that He would prepare a place for them in heaven so they could be with Him in heaven -- that where I am, there ye may be also.

Hypothetically speaking, if Jesus returned to earth now, the disciples could not 'receive Jesus' since the disciples are no longer living on earth.

John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.

When Jesus returns He will bring those who are dead in Christ and will raise them from the dead so that they have an immortal resurrection body, as Jesus has.
1Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For isince we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that lwe who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend ofrom heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

So Jesus comes (the same way that the disciples saw Him ascend into heaven) and gets His disciples so we can be with Him always. In John 14:3 Jesus says that He would come to get His disciples so they could be with Him.

That was not Jesus saying “Yes, I am coming soon” since Jesus did not write the Book of Revelation.

Somebody in John's vision said "Yes, I am coming soon" and in the next line John identifies Him when he says, "Amen, come Lord Jesus".

 

[Brian2]

No, The disciples did not see Jesus ascend since there was nothing to see, since only the spirit of Jesus ascended and one cannot see a spirit.
Two men dressed in white (angels) stood beside the disciples and they said to the disciples: “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

I think it is amazing that you can say that the disciples did not see Jesus ascend and then quote the very verse that tells us that the disciples saw Jesus ascend. I highlighted it just in case you missed it for the 1000th time.

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to coming back to earth again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11).

John 14:2-3 is Jesus speaking to His disciples. It is not Jesus promising anyone else He will return to earth. When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not talking about His physical body returning to earth, He was referring to His Spirit coming again, which it did, in another person who was the return of the Christ spirit with a new name (Isaiah 62:2, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 3:12)

Jesus said to the disciples “I will come again, and receive you unto myself” Jesus knew He was going to heaven, and He was telling His disciples that He would prepare a place for them in heaven so they could be with Him in heaven -- that where I am, there ye may be also.

Hypothetically speaking, if Jesus returned to earth now, the disciples could not 'receive Jesus' since the disciples are no longer living on earth.

John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.

I like the way you are so organised and have passages which you have prepared earlier, to cut and paste.
When I answered this in my previous post I did miss out those verses that say it was the Christ Spirit with a different name.
Isa 62:2 is speaking about a new name for Zion.
Isa 62:1For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent,
for Jerusalem’s sake I will not remain quiet,
till her vindication shines out like the dawn,
her salvation like a blazing torch.
2 The nations will see your vindication,
and all kings your glory;
you will be called by a new name
that the mouth of the Lord will bestow.

Rev 2:17 is speaking about those in the church at Pergamum being given a white stone with a new name on it. It does not say whose name it is.
Actually it looks as if there are many names, as the only person who knows the name is the one to whom it is given. So each person in the church who overcomes will get a new name.
Rev 2:17................To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’

Rev 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

For a start we should note that it is Jesus who is speaking to all the Churches in this section of Revelatin. We see this in Rev 1 where it starts.
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels[e] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

So it is Jesus who is saying that He (Jesus) has will get a new name. You know,,,,,,,,,,, this same Jesus gets a new name. It is not someone else with a different name it is Jesus with getting a new name.
But you can cherry pick that verse if you want but it shows nothing about Baha'u'llah and it does not even say that Jesus is going to loose the name Jesus. It probably means that He will have another name added,,,,,,,,,,,,,, just as the white stone of Rev 2:17 means another name added to their initial name. (If it was not a name added in Rev 2:17 nobody would know what to call them, as only the people given the name know what it is)

Why change the subject? We are not talking about those verses. We are talking about the return of Christ.

It's not a change of subject really as it is still talking about Jesus saying that He would return,,,,,,,, but in them He calls Himself the Son of Man as He does in many places.
eg Jesus asked His disciples "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" (Matthew 16:13).
But that is easy for you, He must be talking about 2 sons of man,,,,,,,,,,,, of course,,,,,,,,,,,,, the one who was on earth 2000 years ago and another one who comes to raise the dead and judge everyone.
But Jesus said that all judgement has been given to Him (Jesus) (John 5) and that all those in the graves will hear His voice.
John 5: 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

That's one of those predictions that Baha'u'llah did not and could not do and it is definitely about Jesus, the Son of God anyway.
But Baha'u'llah's followers don't care if it is about Jesus, to them it MUST be about Baha'u'llah and it does not actually mean that people will be raised back to life.

 

[Brian2]

Do you believe that a physical Jesus went up to heaven? I can understand early Christians believing this, but not today, when the physical heaven is well established as being a vacuum once you get that far, with innumerable stars, many billions of light years away.

For all we know the heaven where Jesus ascended to is all around us now and we just cannot see it.

 

[Brian2]

Like I implied in a previous post, there is no way Jesus went to a physical heaven in a physical body, which, by the way casts doubt that Jesus' had a physical resurrection. The same author (Luke) is also quoted in the Gospel of Luke as the gold standard by Christians that Jesus' resurrection was physical. Modern science shows that this author is unreliable.

Jesus was raised in an immortal and incorruptible body that can live anywhere.
Historians have been marvelling at how reliable and accurate Luke has been as a historical writer.
There seems to by one thing that there is poor evidence for, the census at the time of Jesus birth, so those who like attacking the reliability of Luke and the Bible use that. (I don't know of other places he is said to have made a mistake)
The thing is that he is so reliable in other things that what he says about the census can be seen as good evidence that it happened just as Luke said.
But what has modern science got to do with it anyway?

 

[Brian2]

He had a different understanding of the Bible. How is that attacking the Bible?

Any Baha'i has to deny a lot of the Bible, haven't you noticed that?
That the fruit of the false prophet which all Baha'is show.
If you want I could show you places where all Baha'is do that, but chances are you will just say that it is just a different interpretation of the Bible. (as if denying the truth of the Bible can be classed as a different interpretation)

 

[shunyadragon]

So you see John 14:16-17 and don't notice that the promise is to His disciples and that it says that the Comforter dwells in them and shall be in them.
The Comforter sounds like an invisible Spirit to me.

In conjunction with other prophecies it represents the promised return of the Messiah as experienced by the disciples.

What is specific about an Edict of Toleration in 1844 saying that Muslim apostates would not be killed, and which Baha'i says is when Jews started returning to their homeland.

It is specific to the promise of the when the Messiah returns the Nation of Israel will be restored. as promised. Edict of Toleration (1844) - Wikipedia

The Edict was seen by some especially among the religious as a specific sign leading towards the fulfillment of prophecy.

Research conducted by Michael Sours[5] into this subject and the records of the development of the Edict did not refer directly to the Jews but rather infers religious tolerance through ending executions for apostasy for Jews that seemed to convert making their social situation easier while actually keeping their personal and group identity in their Judaic religion. Jerusalem has had the largest Jewish population in Palestine in recent centuries since about 1844[8] and been majority Jewish since about 1852.[9]

The Edict was first publicly commented upon by Reverend Edward Bickersteth in his publication, Practical Guide to the Prophecies in the 1844 edition.[4] Adventist William Miller, and those that disagreed with him, though unaware of the Edict and the diplomacy around it, still looked to the fortunes of the Ottoman Empire even in the period.[10] Miller pointed to the year because of the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel 8:14, relying on the Day-year principle. The 2300 days are understood to represent 2300 years stretching from 457 BC, the calculated starting date of the 70 weeks prophecy based on the 3rd decree found in Ezra, thus leading to 1843/4. Bickersteth acknowledged the same interpretation and added a second - Ezekiel 4:5 - as a parallel to start the clock for understanding Revelation 9:15; taking 390 years as a period for persecution of Christians in the End time. Bickersteth takes this persecution from the triumph of Ottoman rule of Constantinople in 1453, thus 1453+390 is 1843/4, directly before these events. Thus, independently of Miller, a number of Christian authors followed the significance of this declaration from Bickersteth including Alfred Edersheim,[11] a Jewish convert to Christianity and a Biblical scholar, and Henry Grattan Guinness[12] who broadened the themes of the understanding of the edict and its importance, and into the early 20th century with Worth Smith who mentioned it in his 1934 Miracle of the Ages.[13] Adventist mention of the Edict wasn't until 1917.[14]

Thornton Chase, commonly recognized as the first convert to the Baháʼí Faith of Occidental background, noted the Edict in his publication The Bahai Revelation published in 1909.[15] An Irish convert to the religion, George Townshend was the first broadly published to mention the Edict in Baháʼí literature in 1944[5] when he wrote:

What prophecies did Jesus fulfill that cannot be considered coincidence or subjective claims? Are there any specific prophecies that you can cite that specifically point to the date of the fulfillment by Jesus from the Torah?

 

[shunyadragon]

I don't understand the Hebrew but many Christians and esp Bible translators do.
A problem is that Christians accept older manuscripts than the Jews do, and use them for translation at times.

The point is the subjective nature of prophecies result in various conflicting interpretation, and your demands that the prophecies of the fulfillment of prophecies by Jesus are absolutely 'True' and others are absolutely false lacks independent subjective judgement as to how the different religions interpret prophecy.

Yes you say you believe the Bible is true, but that is a subjective statement, which includes the Jewish Torah, which is the Jews Book.

I realize the subjective nature of claims of the fulfillment of prophecy is to a degree subjective, and not what is absolutely 'True' or not.

Nonetheless the Baha'i view of prophecy has support from independent Christian sources in the West and a number of churches formed at theat time based on this belief such as Jehovah Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists.

Your stoic demanding that your beliefs in scripture, prophecy and science remains a very egocentric narrow world view rejecting the reality of the diverse world we can objectively see without blindly relying on literal ancient beliefs.

 

[shunyadragon]

Jesus was raised in an immortal and incorruptible body that can live anywhere.
Historians have been marvelling at how reliable and accurate Luke has been as a historical writer.
There seems to by one thing that there is poor evidence for, the census at the time of Jesus birth, so those who like attacking the reliability of Luke and the Bible use that. (I don't know of other places he is said to have made a mistake)
The thing is that he is so reliable in other things that what he says about the census can be seen as good evidence that it happened just as Luke said.
But what has modern science got to do with it anyway?

Modern science has a great deal to with the context of how ancient scripture is understood in the contemporary world. Ancient worldviews that assert literal interpretations are generally out of touch with the reality of a changing evolving world and the fallible nature of human interpretation of scripture.

I believe the more universal perspective of the Baha'i Faith, the harmony of science and religion, and recognizing the diversity of human experience over the hundreds of thousands of years of human experience is the fulfillment of the revelation of knowledge in the next age.