For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[shunyadragon]

Any Baha'i has to deny a lot of the Bible, haven't you noticed that?
That the fruit of the false prophet which all Baha'is show.
If you want I could show you places where all Baha'is do that, but chances are you will just say that it is just a different interpretation of the Bible. (as if denying the truth of the Bible can be classed as a different interpretation)

Again the problem remains that by the evidence of the subjective nature of prophecy, you cannot make such objective demands on how other religions interpret prophecy'

Again, again and again the Jews emphatically and totally consider Jesus a 'false prophet' based on their own book, language and prophecies. You have repeatedly ignored this problem by strictly demanded the 'Truth' of your own subjective beliefs, which is in contradiction with the reality of diverse interpretations of scripture..

 

[Dimi95]

Your agenda and others extend the problem of th iirrational belief in a literal interpretation of the Bible as the 'Truth.' rejecting and being selective concerning science, history, and archaeology to justify your agenda.

Here you are wrong.

We don't see the Truth in a Book literally.For us Christians , Truth is a person because Jesus claimed to be the way , the truth and the life.

For us Christians , Truth lives.

He did not say "I come with the truth" , he said "I am the truth".

I mean , most of your toughts do have some good grounds , but the problem appears when everyone 'accuses' the other one of misinterpretation.All we do is just dig a deeper hole..

For example , i/you can claim that i/you have examined the evidence and that what i/you interprete is correct.But how do we establish what is correct since both of us stand on our belief?
For sure we hardly find consensus in arguments.

What is crucial for me is the relationship that we build in the procces.
To belive in what you say , first i need to know you as a person , and i won't get to know you unless you reveal yourself to me.
It takes a sacrifice to establish a relationship.
To know someone else's reason , it requires act.

We fail in doing that,building relationships.

I mean this is a very large topic , but its build on good ground.

 

[shunyadragon]

Here you are wrong.

We don't see the Truth in a Book literally.For us Christians , Truth is a person because Jesus claimed to be the way , the truth and the life.

Outside those that do believe in a literal Bible and reject science I do not see any meaningful positive relationship with those who believe differently

For us Christians , Truth lives.

For believers in ALL religions 'Truth' lives.

He did not say "I come with the truth" , he said "I am the truth".

Yes, but I do not believe He rejected the knowledge of science.

I mean , most of your thoughts do have some good grounds , but the problem appears when everyone 'accuses' the other one of misinterpretation.All we do is just dig a deeper hole..

The harsh challenge of the beliefs of others as 'false' and one's beliefs are the only 'Truth' is not my way and never expressed in my posts. It is the Christians that have asserted theirs is the only 'Truth' and others are false.

For example , i/you can claim that i/you have examined the evidence and that what i/you interprete is correct.But how do we establish what is correct since both of us stand on our belief?
For sure we hardly find consensus in arguments.

For science this is easy. The history of the evolving knowledge science is based on consistent objective verifiable evidence. The consensus is virtually universal in all the major academic institutions and 98%++ of all scientists. In science I can easily claim to have spent over 50 years objectively examining the evidence,

Yes, because of the subjective nature of religions and other beliefs are of course not only hardly, but as a matter of fact do not have common grounds. In this case I have been very open to acknowledging the subjective diversity among different religions, and NOT claiming any form of absolute "Truth.'

What is crucial for me is the relationship that we build in the procces.

OK

To belive in what you say , first i need to know you as a person , and i won't get to know you unless you reveal yourself to me.
It takes a sacrifice to establish a relationship.
To know someone else's reason , it requires act.

We fail in doing that,building relationships.

OK

I mean this is a very large topic , but its build on good ground.

OK, if you follow my posts, my views and persona are very clear and specific. I fundamentally follow a Universalist Philosophy indifferent and skeptical of all subjective religious beliefs including my own. I am grounded in the factual objective evolving knowledge of science.

I sincerely believe that believers in ancient religions and worldviews do not consider the universal perspective beyond their own subjective religious belief. Polite considerations of tolerance between religions and churches are superficial and only skin deep. This is becoming glaringly apparent in the world to day with the increasing violence between the tribes, and the rejection of science. particularly in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Though Judaism as a whole has made peace with the harmony of science with their beliefs.

I also have made a sincere effort for over 50 years to understand the religions of the world and why they believe. One obvious observation is tha in today's world 95%+ people believe in some version of the beliefs of their cultural heritage or peer group. Yes, there is some conversions back and forth. I believe the dominant reason for people to believe is the sense of community and identity their choice brings them is the dominant influence even when conversion is involved. Though tradition of their culture and heritage remains the most dominant influence

I sincerely believe IF God exists God is a Universal God and not one of the many diverse and conflicting God or Gods from a human perspective in the tens of thousands of years of human history. I do not believe in the concept of a select belief in what is salvation as any one religion believes over others.

One caution is the concept of potential free will (not libertarian free will) we may have to make choices. Once on become completely and blindly devoted to one belief system they surrender their ability to rationally and logically understand anything outside the belief system. The classic rejection of science without considering the evidence of the reality of our humanness, life, world and universe

 

[Dimi95]

OK, if you follow my posts, my views and persona are very clear and specific. I fundamentally follow a Universalist Philosophy indifferent and skeptical of all subjective religious beliefs including my own. I am grounded in the factual objective evolving knowledge of science.[/b]
You said that you follow Universalist Philosophy and then you grounded yourself with Science.

That is contradiction,since we talk about Truth.
Science does not determine Truth!

Phisophy of Science talks more about this topic.

I sincerely believe that believers in ancient religions and worldviews do not consider the universal perspective beyond their own subjective religious belief. Polite considerations of tolerance between religions and churches are superficial and only skin deep. This is becoming glaringly apparent in the world to day with the increasing violence between the tribes, and the rejection of science. particularly in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Though Judaism as a whole has made peace with the harmony of science with their beliefs.

Science is the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained.

You are making 'truth' dependent on Science.
Science is just a tool!

 

[Trailblazer]

Whether it is said by Jesus or not does not matter. You deny that Jesus said that He will come back (eg John 14:3 etc), so you don't really care if Jesus said it or not.
Apart from that it is good to see that you acknowledge that there is a passage that says "the same Jesus will return as He went up".

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus was addressing His disciples. Jesus said He was going to heaven to prepare a place for His disciples.

If Jesus came again it was not during the lifetimes of the disciples, we know that, so how could I will come again, and receive you unto myself be referring yo Jesus receiving His disciples on earth?
No, Jesus was going to receive His disciples in heaven, so that where Jesus was the disciples would be there also.

Rev 1:7 is about someone who was pierced.
If we read what is before Rev 1:7 we read:

Rev 1:6.............................To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

So the one freed us from our sins by his blood is the one in verse 7 who was pierced and is coming with the clouds. That is what it says.

Jesus is not the only one who was pierced. Baha'u'llah was also pierced, by heavy chains.

“Many prisoners did not survive the brutal conditions in Persian dungeons, either. In the Black Pit, for example, men were held underground in a dank, foul, fetid old cistern, bound together with massive, heavy chains and collars. Baha’u’llah, who had lived a life of privilege until his arrest, found himself shackled with two of the most galling of those huge chains, so feared and infamous they had names.”
The Message Baha’u’llah Received in the Black Pit

“Baha’u’llah was thrown into the Black Pit, an infamous dungeon in Tehran. A number of other Babis had also been arrested and were chained together with him in the dungeon.
Baha’u’llah was forced to wear constantly one or the other of two heavy chains. So great was their weight that they left him scarred for the rest of his life.”
The Black Pit: Violence, Torture and Gruesome Death

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

That verse cannot be about Jesus since Jesus clearly said we would see Him no more.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

When Jesus returns He will bring those who are dead in Christ and will raise them from the dead so that they have an immortal resurrection body, as Jesus has.

So Jesus comes (the same way that the disciples saw Him ascend into heaven) and gets His disciples so we can be with Him always. In John 14:3 Jesus says that He would come to get His disciples so they could be with Him.

It is not possible that Jesus will ever return to earth unless:
1) Jesus lied, or
2) the Bible has errors

Because Jesus said:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Somebody in John's vision said "Yes, I am coming soon" and in the next line John identifies Him when he says, "Amen, come Lord Jesus".

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Your interpretation of that verse is incorrect. Even so, come, Lord Jesus is not John identifying Jesus as the one who will come, it is John beckoning Jesus to come. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

Any Baha'i has to deny a lot of the Bible, haven't you noticed that?
That the fruit of the false prophet which all Baha'is show.
If you want I could show you places where all Baha'is do that, but chances are you will just say that it is just a different interpretation of the Bible. (as if denying the truth of the Bible can be classed as a different interpretation)

Any Christian has to deny a lot of the Bible, haven't you noticed that?
That is the fruit of The False Prophets of Christianity.

If you want I could show you places where all Christians do that, but chances are you will just say that I am denying the truth of the Bible, as if a different interpretation of the Bible can be classed as denying the truth of the Bible.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus was raised in an immortal and incorruptible body that can live anywhere.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that.
That is just a Christian belief that came about by slapping many different verses together to form a belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

For all we know the heaven where Jesus ascended to is all around us now and we just cannot see it.

That is actually a Baha'i belief, that there is no real separation between this world and the spiritual world (heaven).

“Your questions, however, can be answered only briefly, since there is no time for a detailed reply. The answer to the first question: the souls of the children of the Kingdom, after their separation from the body, ascend unto the realm of everlasting life. But if ye ask as to the place, know ye that the world of existence is a single world, although its stations are various and distinct.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 193

“Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.”
‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96

 

[shunyadragon]

That is contradiction,since we talk about Truth.
Science does not determine Truth!

No, the universalist perspective is not a contradiction. The problem remains concerning the many diverse conflicting claims of 'Truth.' The universalist perspective simply tries to understand the diverse and conflicting beliefs as they are and what they believe not which one's claim of 'Truth' is valid. The claims of any one conflicting belief the only 'Truth,' is problematic from the fallible human perspective.

That is also a contradiction of what we can call knowledge based on objective verifiable evidence. Science fortunately does not claim 'Truth.'
Claims of 'Truth' are the venue of the many diverse conflicting religious beliefs each claiming to be the 'Truth' and others false.

Philosophy of Science talks more about this topic.

The philosophy of science is the basis for Methodological Naturalism that has its basis on the objective verifiable evidence of our physical existence only. It is neutral to any subjective religious claims.

Science is the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained.

OK

You are making 'truth' dependent on Science.

I made no such claim. In fact I believe in the previous post and this one emphatically deny this.

Science is just a tool!

Well, ah . . . sort of OK, but too simplistic.

 

[Eli G]

Nothing God reveals can be less than truth.

 

[shunyadragon]

Nothing God reveals can be less than truth.

. . . but there are many diverse conflicting claims by fallible humans as to what is 'Truth. How could you determine which is 'Truth' other than a simple blind assertion without objective evidence?

 

[Eli G]

God's revelations are one thing; human's thoughts a totally different thing.

Jer. 17:9 The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.
Who can know it?

Philosophy is a purely human construct. It is useless when it comes to knowing the truth. The truth is found when the true God is known.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think it is amazing that you can say that the disciples did not see Jesus ascend and then quote the very verse that tells us that the disciples saw Jesus ascend. I highlighted it just in case you missed it for the 1000th time.

"This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

For the 1000th time, the verse does not say that they saw a body ascend. That is simply a Christian belief.

For a start we should note that it is Jesus who is speaking to all the Churches in this section of Revelatin. We see this in Rev 1 where it starts.
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels[e] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

So it is Jesus who is saying that He (Jesus) has will get a new name. You know,,,,,,,,,,, this same Jesus gets a new name. It is not someone else with a different name it is Jesus with getting a new name.

Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. As the Bible says Christ would return with a new name, so we know He would not be called Jesus.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The new name means that the return of Christ would be another man. Christians do not bother to think about what these verses actually mean -- what the Spirit saith unto the churches -- yet they have completely disregarded what the Spirit said because they STILL believe that the same Jesus is going to come down from heaven on the clouds.

You can continue to wait for Jesus to return to earth, but you will be waiting till hell freezes over. Meanwhile you are not getting any younger, so if Baha'u'llah is actually who He claimed to be, you will die and go to the spiritual world, and this is what will happen:

".... whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

 

[Eli G]

... Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. ...

Is that what the Bahais say?

Matt. 25:31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. 35 For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; 36 naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

 

[Trailblazer]

Is that what the Bahais say?

Matt. 25:31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

Jesus is not the only Son of man.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Sorry, Jesus is not coming back to earth.
Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.
Obviously that means that 'the return of Christ' has to be another Person.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[shunyadragon]

God's revelations are one thing; human's thoughts a totally different thing.

Jer. 17:9 The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.
Who can know it?

Philosophy is a purely human construct. It is useless when it comes to knowing the truth. The truth is found when the true God is known.

You did not answer my post.

 

[shunyadragon]

Science is the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained.

You are making 'truth' dependent on Science.
Science is just a tool!

Your description of science is OK, but you need to clarify what you accept as the knowledge of science.

Do you accept the knowledge of science of a universe ~13.5 billions of years old, a solar system and earth ~4.5 billion years old, and the evolution of life ~3.5 billion of years?

We are not talking about 'Truth,' but the knowledge of science based on the objective verifiable evidence.

 

[Eli G]

Jesus is not the only Son of man.

...

So who is he then? BahaUllah?

Matt. 16:27 For the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will repay each one according to his behavior.

 

[shunyadragon]

So who is he then? BahaUllah?

Matt. 16:27 For the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will repay each one according to his behavior.

The promised Son of Man

 

[Trailblazer]

So who is he then? BahaUllah?

Matt. 16:27 For the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will repay each one according to his behavior.

Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ, thus He was the return of the Son of man, one like the Son of man, who came in the glory of His Father.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?