For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[seekandfind]

I used to be a trinity believer myself. When i found out Jesus was not Yhwh it felt like my foundation had crumbled beneath me. What held me together was knowing Jesus was still Jesus. He still lived a perfect human life and gave it for mankind. He was still Gods son. He was still king of Gods Kingdom(until the end comes). Everything was still created through him.

The real bonus of learning the truth was it was the 1st time i could worship God properly and serve Him properly. It has only gotten better since. My whole life changed like never before. It was the first time i learned what Gods will was and therefore could do it. I finally knew and felt that freedom Jesus spoke of. True freedom.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

 

[Soapy]

I used to be a trinity believer myself. When i found out Jesus was not Yhwh it felt like my foundation had crumbled beneath me. What held me together was knowing Jesus was still Jesus. He still lived a perfect human life and gave it for mankind. He was still Gods son. He was still king of Gods Kingdom(until the end comes). Everything was still created through him.

The real bonus of learning the truth was it was the 1st time i could worship God properly and serve Him properly. It has only gotten better since. My whole life changed like never before. It was the first time i learned what Gods will was and therefore could do it. I finally knew and felt that freedom Jesus spoke of. True freedom.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

It’s great that you have ditched trinity fallacy and come to AN UNDERSTANDING of the truth of God, who is YHWH by name, Father, by title.

Unfortunately you erred in your final assumption that ‘Everything was created through Jesus’.

In fact, it does not even make sense to say GOD ‘created all things through Jesus’…

That claim is still TRINITARIAN and so you have not yet fully ditched the trinitarian fallacy that you claim you thought you had done. But it’s a start… and a good start!!

May you be guided through the Spirit of God (most often PERSONIFIED by trinitarian fallacy and called ‘The Holy Spirit’. The fallacy idea is that by stripping the Spirit of God of its possesional attribute (‘… OF GOD’), it is easier to make a claim that the Spirit of God is an independent PERSON in the three-Person trinity God)

As you attempt to explain how ‘Jesus’ (properly, you need to say, ‘the Son’, as there was no ‘Jesus’, let alone ‘Christ’, in the beginning. And by projecting into a hugely later event - the birth and naming of the messiah - you are claiming a pre-existent being who was WITH GOD yet scriptures says GOD WAS ALONE… What you don’t see is that it cannot be claimed that God was alone in the beginning if ‘the Son’ was with him…!!

Moreover, scriptures, many many times declares GOD as the creator, and, indeed, His very title, ‘The Father’, means:

• ‘He that is the Creator’
• ‘He that brings into being’
• ‘He that gives life’

Which of those title wordings apply to ‘the Son’?

And, in any case, how could the Son have been the medium THROUGH which God created - brought creation into being - gave life to creation? Are you not seeing the corruption in verses that Trinitarians have modified in their vain attempt to dupe believers into thinking this irreverent ideology?

Remember these things:

1. Scriptures says that GOD ALONE created all things
2. If another prominent agent was involved then it cannot be claimed that Hod alone was the creator (Note that Angels are not prominent agents in the creation of the world. They are strictly denied glorification to any degree)
3. If the claim is that the Son created all things then how could it ‘THROUGH’ him that creation came to be?
4. The Son is at no time called ‘The Father [of Creation]’ which would be expected if indeed he was the CREATOR
5. Neither Genesis, nor any Old Testament books, ever declare, present, speak of, a ‘Son’ existing WITH GOD. The prophesies of ‘A Son’ refer to ‘The Seed of s Woman’, ‘A Servant of God’, ‘The Messiah’ (which is ‘the Christ’ in the Greek/English language - both meaning “The Anointed one” - the anointing with the Spirit[ual oil] of God at the baptism that John the Baptist performed : Acts 10:37-38, prophesied at Isaiah 42:1 and other places!!)
6. Jesus Christ, the man adopted by God on whom God placed his Spirit to empower (‘You are my Son; this day I have become your Father!)
7. And ‘SON’ means: ‘He who does the works of the Father’ which Jesus Christ defined to the Jews saying, ‘I only said that God is my Father; if I am not doing his works then do not believe me - or else believe on the works themselves!’
8. …There is more but I cannot tax you over this…

 

[seekandfind]

It’s great that you have ditched trinity fallacy and come to AN UNDERSTANDING of the truth of God, who is YHWH by name, Father, by title.

Unfortunately you erred in your final assumption that ‘Everything was created through Jesus’.

In fact, it does not even make sense to say GOD ‘created all things through Jesus’…

That claim is still TRINITARIAN and so you have not yet fully ditched the trinitarian fallacy that you claim you thought you had done. But it’s a start… and a good start!!

May you be guided through the Spirit of God (most often PERSONIFIED by trinitarian fallacy and called ‘The Holy Spirit’. The fallacy idea is that by stripping the Spirit of God of its possesional attribute (‘… OF GOD’), it is easier to make a claim that the Spirit of God is an independent PERSON in the three-Person trinity God)

As you attempt to explain how ‘Jesus’ (properly, you need to say, ‘the Son’, as there was no ‘Jesus’, let alone ‘Christ’, in the beginning. And by projecting into a hugely later event - the birth and naming of the messiah - you are claiming a pre-existent being who was WITH GOD yet scriptures says GOD WAS ALONE… What you don’t see is that it cannot be claimed that God was alone in the beginning if ‘the Son’ was with him…!!

Moreover, scriptures, many many times declares GOD as the creator, and, indeed, His very title, ‘The Father’, means:

• ‘He that is the Creator’
• ‘He that brings into being’
• ‘He that gives life’

Which of those title wordings apply to ‘the Son’?

And, in any case, how could the Son have been the medium THROUGH which God created - brought creation into being - gave life to creation? Are you not seeing the corruption in verses that Trinitarians have modified in their vain attempt to dupe believers into thinking this irreverent ideology?

Remember these things:

1. Scriptures says that GOD ALONE created all things
2. If another prominent agent was involved then it cannot be claimed that Hod alone was the creator (Note that Angels are not prominent agents in the creation of the world. They are strictly denied glorification to any degree)
3. If the claim is that the Son created all things then how could it ‘THROUGH’ him that creation came to be?
4. The Son is at no time called ‘The Father [of Creation]’ which would be expected if indeed he was the CREATOR
5. Neither Genesis, nor any Old Testament books, ever declare, present, speak of, a ‘Son’ existing WITH GOD. The prophesies of ‘A Son’ refer to ‘The Seed of s Woman’, ‘A Servant of God’, ‘The Messiah’ (which is ‘the Christ’ in the Greek/English language - both meaning “The Anointed one” - the anointing with the Spirit[ual oil] of God at the baptism that John the Baptist performed : Acts 10:37-38, prophesied at Isaiah 42:1 and other places!!)
6. Jesus Christ, the man adopted by God on whom God placed his Spirit to empower (‘You are my Son; this day I have become your Father!)
7. And ‘SON’ means: ‘He who does the works of the Father’ which Jesus Christ defined to the Jews saying, ‘I only said that God is my Father; if I am not doing his works then do not believe me - or else believe on the works themselves!’
8. …There is more but I cannot tax you over this…

Actually it can still be credited to God as being the Creator even though he let Jesus take part. To illustrate think of and engineer drawing up a floor plan for a building. He then passes that plant to the biulder. Who gets the credit for the building design? Isnt it the engineer as it was his plan. In the same sense God is the creator as it was his plan. Jesus followed the blueprints, so to speak.

It that what the scriptures teach?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." John 1:1

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him." Col 1:15-16

"Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men." Prov 8:30-31

There are more scriptures but hopefully this makes the point.

 

[Soapy]

Actually it can still be credited to God as being the Creator even though he let Jesus take part. To illustrate think of and engineer drawing up a floor plan for a building. He then passes that plant to the biulder. Who gets the credit for the building design? Isnt it the engineer as it was his plan. In the same sense God is the creator as it was his plan. Jesus followed the blueprints, so to speak.

It that what the scriptures teach?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." John 1:1

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him." Col 1:15-16

"Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men." Prov 8:30-31

There are more scriptures but hopefully this makes the point.

No!

What you quoted was ‘Wisdom’… the wisdom of God!!

The first part: GOD and God alone, created all things!

• ‘I, and I alone, created all things.’
• “This is what YHWH says— *your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb*: I am YHWH, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,” (Isaiah 44:24)

(*bolded text* references the nation of Israel… see previous verse (v. 23))

• “It is I [YHWH] who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshalled their starry hosts.” (Isaiah 45:12)
• “I, YHWH, have created it.” (Isaiah 45:8)

And even before Isaiah’s great revelation from YHWH God:

• “You alone are the YHWH. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.” (Neh 9:6)

No! The heavens and the earth are the great works of YHWH alone.

 

[Soapy]

Actually it can still be credited to God as being the Creator even though he let Jesus take part.

How does that work?
WHO CREATED if ‘God let Jesus take part’?

 

[seekandfind]

No!

What you quoted was ‘Wisdom’… the wisdom of God!!

The first part: GOD and God alone, created all things!

• ‘I, and I alone, created all things.’
• “This is what YHWH says— *your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb*: I am YHWH, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,” (Isaiah 44:24)

(*bolded text* references the nation of Israel… see previous verse (v. 23))

• “It is I [YHWH] who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshalled their starry hosts.” (Isaiah 45:12)
• “I, YHWH, have created it.” (Isaiah 45:8)

And even before Isaiah’s great revelation from YHWH God:

• “You alone are the YHWH. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.” (Neh 9:6)

No! The heavens and the earth are the great works of YHWH alone.

While the chapter is about wisdom it is also attributed to Jesus.
If you dont agree thats fine. But how do you explain Col :15-16?

" He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him."

 

[seekandfind]

How does that work?
WHO CREATED if ‘God let Jesus take part’?

Same as the engineer and builder in the illustration.

 

[Soapy]

While the chapter is about wisdom it is also attributed to Jesus.
If you dont agree thats fine. But how do you explain Col :15-16?

" He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him."

I’m still asking how all things were created by means of him, through him, and for him!

And what did GOD do?

My reading of Scriptures - minus the corruption - is that GOD, YHWH; The Father, created all things and set Al the stations in their place and set angels in those stations according to their power.

Yes, the Father; YHWH, created all things FOR the son in humanity whom He would chose to bring salvation to mankind - to this one the rulership of the kingdom of creation would be the reward!

• ‘I, YHWH, created all things…’
• ‘For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited— he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.’ (Isaiah 45:18)
• ‘All things were created [By YHWH] FOR HIM [The Son of his love]’
• ‘And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.’ (Psalm 89:27)

 

[Soapy]

Same as the engineer and builder in the illustration.

But then how can it be said that ‘The engineer’ created all things by himself?

The truth is that the Engineer (your analogy) is almighty God: YHWH. The builders are the holy angels who were his FIRST CREATION.

The angels are NOT CREDITED so as to NOT ATTRACT WORSHIP OR GLORIFICATION. Their ‘reward’ is to remain in the heavenly realm in the presence of almighty God, their creator.

Hence, almighty God says that He, and He alone, created all things.

Now, when He says that He and He alone…, He is referring to ‘NO OTHER GODS’…

The Pagan world all believed in multiple Gods who each, separately or together in some way, created units, parcels, parts, etc., of the world. YHWH’s message was that the true believers ARE NOT TO THINK LIKE THE PAGANS but to BELIEVE IN HIM: YHWH, and Him alone who, BY HIMSELF, with NO OTHER [so-called] GODS, created all things.

It has N O T H I N G at all to do with ‘Son of God’ (contemporary ‘Jesus’)

I tell you this now, and will always tell it so:

• The verse, any verse, that claims that ‘Jesus created the world and all within’ ARE FRAUDULENT

I even see YOU have doubts about such incredulous claims that Jesus created… but I guess since you have been indoctrinated and have fellow believers around you, you must try to convince yourself that the false claims are even yet true claims. And how does that work? … by delusion! God told us that he would send a deceiving spirit so that [the many] ‘would believe the lie’ and what do we find? It is THE MANY who indeed are BELIEVING IN THE LIE.

Are you a believer that in the beginning Satan desired worship from mankind and that was what led to him becoming the liar when deceit was found in him:

• Some Jews accused Jesus Christ of being a Demon. Jesus retorted saying to them:
  • ‘I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father…..
  • As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God….
  • You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” (John 8:38 & 40 & 44)

I’m asking because I want to show you something if you are willing.

 

[syo]

When i found out Jesus was not Yhwh

I don't know what you are talking about, BUT

congratulations! God never walked our planet! Nice! Bravo!

 

[seekandfind]

Yhwh is Gods name in the Old Testament. Some people think Jesus is the same....even though it clearly states Jesus is his son.

 

[Soapy]

Yhwh is Gods name in the Old Testament. Some people think Jesus is the same....even though it clearly states Jesus is his son.

YHWH is God’s name in the New Testament as well. In fact, YHWH is God’s NAME ETERNALLY.

It’s just that by the time of the New Testament the Jews were superstitious of SPEAKING God’s eternal name and it seem they wouldn’t even WRITE IT… in case they felt they blasphemed by MISUSING IT… You know like how people say with Jesus’ name: ‘Jesus Christ… !!! You nearly scared the Be-Jesus out of me!!’
Which is odd since the majority who misuse Jesus’ name believe Jesus IS GOD!!

 

[seekandfind]

Yes it was eventually taken out. That most likely happenened AFTER Jesus' death. Why do i say that? Because Jesus quoted many scriptures from the OT that said Yhwh. Jesus would not have been sticking to man's traditions as he spoke the truth about God. Being that no one ever accussed him of wrongdoing for using the name its likely only the copies of the NT removed Gods name, which is all we have.
1 example of Jesus quoting the OT....
Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand'". Here hes quoting Psalm 110:1

 

[cataway]

IMHO Jehovah could not have created all things with out the Son having a part in creation

 

[Soapy]

IMHO Jehovah could not have created all things with out the Son having a part in creation

No! GOD created the world and all within for it to be ruled over by a Man made in His image: Like for Like:

• Ruler of the Spirit Realm is God: Spirit
• Ruler of the Created Realm is Jesus Christ: A Man of creation

 

[Brian2]

IMHO Jehovah could not have created all things with out the Son having a part in creation

How do you come to that conclusion?

 

[Muffled]

I used to be a trinity believer myself. When i found out Jesus was not Yhwh it felt like my foundation had crumbled beneath me. What held me together was knowing Jesus was still Jesus. He still lived a perfect human life and gave it for mankind. He was still Gods son. He was still king of Gods Kingdom(until the end comes). Everything was still created through him.

The real bonus of learning the truth was it was the 1st time i could worship God properly and serve Him properly. It has only gotten better since. My whole life changed like never before. It was the first time i learned what Gods will was and therefore could do it. I finally knew and felt that freedom Jesus spoke of. True freedom.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

I believe it would make Jesus just another prophet among many and unable to save me and it would mean that God doesn't care about me. That would be devastating.

 

[Muffled]

I don't know what you are talking about, BUT

congratulations! God never walked our planet! Nice! Bravo!

And unicorns did. I believe you have your fantasies mixed up.

 

[Muffled]

Yhwh is Gods name in the Old Testament. Some people think Jesus is the same....even though it clearly states Jesus is his son.

I believe God is always God but that does not mean the Father who I would consider YHVH is the same as Jesus even though Jesus is God in the flesh.

 

[cataway]

How do you come to that conclusion?

Jehovah is perfect in every way,has no equal . every thing he would do would also be perfect. but that could not happen using imperfect materials . a lesser god (IE Jesus) given the authority to do the work Jehovah God wanted done could