For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[Brian2]

The Torah is the foundation of prophesy for Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith. Without it the interpretation in later scriptures is literally meaningless, breause out of necessity they must refer back to the Torah.

Yes fulfilling prophecy is what Jesus and Baha'u'llah need to do to be considered as whom they say they are.

Jewish beliefs have everything to do with it, because it demonstrates your interpretations are not literal and the only possible interpretation. The bottomline is again and again the Torah is the Jewish scripture and their language and they reject all the interpretations you make concerning Jesus and all those claimed by Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

The meaning given in the New Testament is for the view of the compilers rejected by the Jews, and all the prophesies for the Messiah were not fulfilled by Jesus regardless of whether Jesus is the true Messiah or not.

For 2000 years there has been disagreement between Jews and Christians and really it is a disagreement between Jews, since the first Christians were Jews.
So Jewish Jesus and God and Jewish Christians interpret the Torah one way and Jews who rejected Jesus interpret it another way.
Do you think that Jesus was the Messiah? If so then you reject a lot of the Jewish interpretation of Torah.

Actually you were given a specific clear reference to prophecy pointing to 1844 agreed by many Christians around the world for the return of the Messiah at that time and you failed to respond. Were they all wrong believing in the return of the Messiah in 1844?

Of course the Christians who thought 1844 was the date for the return of Christ were wrong, and they all agree. He did not return then. If He did return we would know it because it would be the same Jesus and He would have come back the same way His disciples saw Him go to heaven.
Acts 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

This is part of the New Testament prophecy that Baha'u'llah should have fulfilled but did not.
As for Jesus fulfilling prophecy in Tanakh. There is nothing in Tanakh that tells us the Messiah would come only once, but there are suggestions that it would be more than once.

 

[Brian2]

I believe part of the Bible, but not all of it.

I showed you where Jesus said He was NO MORE in the world and the world would see Him NO MORE and then you continue to twist scripture and deny the Scriptures by saying that Jesus is coming back to this world.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

Yes you believe those scriptures in the way you interpret then then end up denying the passages where Jesus tells us He is coming back,,,,,,,,,,,, so you believe part of the Bible but not all of it, as you say.
Then when it comes to the rest of the NT where Jesus disciples tell us of Jesus return, you double down on denying those scriptures. You even say some refer to Baha'u'llah when Jesus name is mentioned.

For centuries the return of Christ has been a central theme of Christian hope, and is associated with the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth. Could it be that the confusion and stress, the oppression and darkness of our day—a day which has witnessed the return of the Jews to the Holy Land—are the fulfillment of all the signs and portents which Christ gave to his followers?

The author of this book certainly believes it is so, George Townshend, a dignitary of the Anglican Church in Ireland and a Canon of St. Patrick’s Cathedral, Dublin, resigned his Orders after forty years to proclaim his conviction that Christ has come again to an unheeding world in the person of Baha’u’llah, Founder of the Baha’i Faith.

(From the book Christ and Baha'u'llah, 1957)

George Townshend referred to Christians who twisted the Scriptures the False Prophets

“It has long been generally believed that Jesus Christ was a unique incarnation of God such as had never before appeared in religious history and would never appear again. This tenet made the acceptance of any later Prophet impossible to a Christian. Yet there is nothing in Christ’s own statements, as recorded in the Gospel, to support this view, and it was not generally held during His lifetime.

George Townshend lost His faith in Jesus and so it is understandable that He did not go on believing the Bible and Christian faith and who Jesus is.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Those that disagree with you do not deny the scriptures. It is a fact that the Jews emphatically and totally believe your interpretation of the Torah is wrong and they do not consider the New Testament true scriptures. They do not deny the Torah it is there book in their language, and ah . . . their prophesies..

Problem is when the Scriptures plainly say that Jesus has flesh and bones after He rose from the dead like this verse, instead of saying yes that’s exactly right. The comments are well man wrote that or some other reason to justify their own or someone else’s false view of Jesus Christ. People are better off to say no I don’t believe the Bible.
Instead go on and on sharing the false teaching calling themselves Bible believers. Well, no you’re not.
”But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate in their presence.“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24‬:‭37‬-‭43‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes fulfilling prophecy is what Jesus and Baha'u'llah need to do to be considered as whom they say they are.

True

For 2000 years there has been disagreement between Jews and Christians and really it is a disagreement between Jews, since the first Christians were Jews.

Only a limited number of traditional Jews accepted Jesus as the Messiah believing in the apocalypse, and After 50 BCE it was the Hellenist Jews and Romans that became Christians, and the numbers of Jews as Christians dramatically decreased,

So Jewish Jesus and God and Jewish Christians interpret the Torah one way and Jews who rejected Jesus interpret it another way.
Do you think that Jesus was the Messiah? If so then you reject a lot of the Jewish interpretation of Torah.

Yes I believe Jesus fulfilled some of the prophecies, and yes Baha'u'llah fulfilled some, but my problem is the one sided demands of absolute 'Truth' you and other Christians believe that if you do not believe their interpretations you do not believe in the Bible. The problem remains ALL interpretations of the prophecies are subjective and based to a large degree on faith as with even the belief in God. The total rejection of Judaism today of Christian, Islamic, and Baha'i interpretation of prophecies is a clear witness to the problem that the claims of fulfillment of prophecies are highly selective with even with spread disagreement among Christians. Your agenda and others extend the problem of th iirrational belief in a literal interpretation of the Bible as the 'Truth.' rejecting and being selective concerning science, history, and archaeology to justify your agenda.

I fully understand the problem of the subjective nature of belief in any one religion in particular ancient religions diverse and conflicting beleifs demonstrating the fallible nature from the human perspective. It is a fact that ancient scripture in all ancient religions lack provenance of authorship and witness of events and time they write about including many unresolvable contradictions.

Of course the Christians who thought 1844 was the date for the return of Christ were wrong, and they all agree. He did not return then. If He did return we would know it because it would be the same Jesus and He would have come back the same way His disciples saw Him go to heaven.

By the same synario ALL the Jews today consider Christianity completely wrong. The interesting fact remains tha many Christians around the world believed in the interpretations indicating 1844 as the date of the return and advent of the new age and revealing of knowledge and radical change in the world that has taken place.

Acts 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Interesting that there are no witness recorded events as claimed nor seeing Jesus as physically Resurrected and meeting people for 40 days. There is not even one scrap of a record of JEsus during his life time.

This is part of the New Testament prophecy that Baha'u'llah should have fulfilled but did not.
As for Jesus fulfilling prophecy in Tanakh. There is nothing in Tanakh that tells us the Messiah would come only once, but there are suggestions that it would be more than once.

Yes the bold.above.

Even though I believe in God I am a factual realist and skeptic of all things concerning the subjective nature of religious belief. There is absolutely nothing objectively factually backed up by recorded witnesses at the time with original documents to confirm religious beliefs concerning Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam or any other ancient religion.

The bottomline is I am a Philosophical Universalist, and if things do not fit the objective reality of our existence it is open to very serious question. The Baha'i Faith fits this reality well, but again with some questions. The fact that the Baha'i Faith believes in the volving spiritual and physical nature humanity and our existence and the evolving harmony of science and religion speaks of the objective reality of our existence. The extreme conflicting and contradiction between human beliefs demonstrates the problems with any one religion being 'True.' The classic response I have heard is: "One religion must be true. I believe mine is the 'True' religion." It is more likely based on the objective evidence we are all wrong in some way. If you believe in God, the true reality is with God not fallible human beliefs. If you do not believe in God the reality is simply the objective verifiable evidence of the nature of our existence, which is very reliable and consistent.

The stronger one believes that there belief is 'True' and only 'True' the more likely they are wrong. This applies to the ancient beliefs of the Jews also.

 

[shunyadragon]

Problem is when the Scriptures plainly say that Jesus has flesh and bones after He rose from the dead like this verse, instead of saying yes that’s exactly right. The comments are well man wrote that or some other reason to justify their own or someone else’s false view of Jesus Christ. People are better off to say no I don’t believe the Bible.
Instead go on and on sharing the false teaching calling themselves Bible believers. Well, no you’re not.
”But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate in their presence.“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24‬:‭37‬-‭43‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

No the scriptures DO NOT plainly say this. Your interpretation of scriptures is selective to justify what you believe is absolutely true. If this was the case the would be more consensus as to the interpretation of scriptures and NO the consensus in scriptures is not there, because taken as whole they are in and of themselves inconsistent and contradictory. You also face the problem that the scriptures are without provenance of authorship and history of the text concerning the timing of accounts. There is absolutely nothing dated to the time Jesus lived.

The stronger one believes that they are right the more likely the case that they are wrong.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes you believe those scriptures in the way you interpret then then end up denying the passages where Jesus tells us He is coming back,,,,,,,,,,,, so you believe part of the Bible but not all of it, as you say.
Then when it comes to the rest of the NT where Jesus disciples tell us of Jesus return, you double down on denying those scriptures. You even say some refer to Baha'u'llah when Jesus name is mentioned.



George Townshend lost His faith in Jesus and so it is understandable that He did not go on believing the Bible and Christian faith and who Jesus is.

George Townsend found a more universal belief that is consistent with the nature of our physical existence and the universality of the relationship between God and ALL the history of humanity, and not the egocentric contradictory and conflicting claims of any one ancient belief of the many different religions and churches claiming they are the only 'True' belief system from the fallible human perspective.

You and other Christians face severe contradictions with the actual history, archaeology and science when taken as a whole and not selectively used to justify an agenda.

This is the reality of our existence whether you believe it or not,.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No the scriptures DO NOT plainly say this. Your interpretation of scriptures is selective to justify what you believe is absolutely true. If this was the case the would be more consensus as to the interpretation of scriptures and NO the consensus in scriptures is not there, because taken as whole they are in and of themselves inconsistent and contradictory. You also face the problem that the scriptures are without provenance of authorship and history of the text concerning the timing of accounts. There is absolutely nothing dated to the time Jesus lived.

The stronger one believes that they are right the more likely the case that they are wrong.

See what I mean, all of Scripture the Prophets, Psalms, Gospels, Acts, Letters, Revelation DO plainly declare the coming of Jesus Christ, his suffering, death, burial, resurrection, glory, His return, final judgement of the devil with all those not found written in the book of life, rewards for believers and receiving resurrected bodies and be with the Lord forever and ever. Amen
Believe this or don’t but this will be found to be the Truth when all is done.

 

[shunyadragon]

See what I mean, all of Scripture the Prophets, Psalms, Gospels, Acts, Letters, Revelation DO plainly declare the coming of Jesus Christ, his suffering, death, burial, resurrection, glory, His return, final judgement of the devil with all those not found written in the book of life, rewards for believers and receiving resurrected bodies and be with the Lord forever and ever. Amen
Believe this or don’t but this will be found to be the Truth when all is done.

No the scriptures DO NOT plainly say this. Your interpretation of scriptures is selective to justify what you believe is absolutely true. If this was the case the would be more consensus as to the interpretation of scriptures and NO the consensus in scriptures is not there, because taken as whole they are in and of themselves inconsistent and contradictory. You also face the problem that the scriptures are without provenance of authorship and history of the text concerning the timing of accounts. There is absolutely nothing dated to the time Jesus lived.

The stronger one believes that they are right the more likely the case that they are wrong.

Failed to respond to the above.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course the Christians who thought 1844 was the date for the return of Christ were wrong, and they all agree. He did not return then. If He did return we would know it because it would be the same Jesus and He would have come back the same way His disciples saw Him go to heaven.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more

 

[metis]

God the Son prayed to God the Father on the Cross

But if they are one, then it still makes no sense at the literalistic level.

If one takes a gander through the NT, what does stand out is that Jesus does differentiate himself from God numerous times, such as when dealing with the question when will the end of times occur and Jesus says only God knows. Thus, technically at least, Jesus cannot be God.

However, the early church used the concept of "essence" that was widely utilized in intellectual circles in the Mediterranean region back at that time [esp. Aristotle and Plato], thus Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God.

 

[ElishaElijah]

But if they are one, then it still makes no sense at the literalistic level.

If one takes a gander through the NT, what does stand out is that Jesus does differentiate himself from God numerous times, such as when dealing with the question when will the end of times occur and Jesus says only God knows. Thus, technically at least, Jesus cannot be God.

However, the early church used the concept of "essence" that was widely utilized in intellectual circles in the Mediterranean region back at that time [esp. Aristotle and Plato], thus Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God.

Not sure why people cannot grasp that God is One Echad, and expresses Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
How else could He stay on the throne, come to the earth and redeem mankind, fill all in all?
All makes sense and easy to understand
No normal created man or being could represent a perfect eternal Father God unless that person were eternal and also God Himself like Jesus Christ the Son of God, who is the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[metis]

Not sure why people cannot grasp that God is One Echad, and expresses Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

With the use of "essence", which the early church fathers used, they are one.

How else could He stay on the throne, come to the earth and redeem mankind, fill all in all?

Jesus said he'd be sitting on God's right hand, so is he sitting on his own hand? Why didn't Jesus know when the end of times would be but said God does? "Essence" explains this perspective, and we know it was used with the formulation of the Trinitarian concept in the 4th century at the Council of Nicaea.

 

[ElishaElijah]

With the use of "essence", which the early church fathers used, they are one.


Jesus said he'd be sitting on God's right hand, so is he sitting on his own hand? Why didn't Jesus know when the end of times would be but said God does? "Essence" explains this perspective, and we know it was used with the formulation of the Trinitarian concept in the 4th century at the Council of Nicaea.

Not following your reasoning, seems people are hung up on the fact that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 persons but One God.
The Holy Spirit is a person as well, not an it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not sure why people cannot grasp that God is One Echad, and expresses Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Baha’i Faith teaches a Trinity, and the detailed explanation is in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in the sense that they are ‘one in Purpose.’ They work together, but they are separate, not ‘part of God.’

In brief, here is how the Baha’i version of the Trinity operates.

God is exalted above anything that can ever be perceived so God remains in His own high place, on His Throne. God never descends to earth. God cannot be divided into parts.

God sent Jesus from heaven and Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit from the womb of Mary into a human body. Later, after Jesus reached a certain age, God sent the Holy Spirit to Him and it descended upon Him like a dove. After Jesus received the Holy Spirit from God the Father, Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to believers.

The Holy Spirit does not enter the body, but rather it has a direct connection to the body through the soul, which is associated with the mind. That is what the indwelling Holy Spirit means to a Baha'i.

How else could He stay on the throne, come to the earth and redeem mankind, fill all in all?

I believe that God remained on His Throne. It was Jesus who came to earth to redeem mankind.

All makes sense and easy to understand
No normal created man or being could represent a perfect eternal Father God unless that person were eternal and also God Himself like Jesus Christ the Son of God, who is the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

I do not believe that Jesus was a normal created man, but I also do not believe that Jesus is God. I believe Jesus was a Manifestation of God.
A Manifestation of God has a twofold nature, one nature human and the other nature divine.

The verse below says that God was manifest in the flesh. It does not say that God became flesh, which is what God incarnate means.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God cannot become flesh because God is spirit, and no man has ever seen God, since God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men.
No man has ever seen God at any time. We know that many men saw Jesus so that means that Jesus cannot be God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

 

[Trailblazer]

so you believe part of the Bible but not all of it, as you say.
Then when it comes to the rest of the NT where Jesus disciples tell us of Jesus return, you double down on denying those scriptures.

You believe part of the Bible but not all of it, as you say.
When it comes to the NT where Jesus tells us He is not going to return to this world you double down on denying those scriptures.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more

You even say some refer to Baha'u'llah when Jesus name is mentioned.

What are those scriptures?

 

[metis]

Not following your reasoning, seems people are hung up on the fact that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 persons but One God.
The Holy Spirit is a person as well, not an it.

One needs to understand the concept of "essence", which is as such:
es·sence
[ˈes(ə)ns]

NOUN

1. the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character:
   "conflict is the essence of drama"
   SIMILAR:
   
   
   • PHILOSOPHY
     a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.
   
   
   

 

[metis]

or here:
Essence (Latin: essentia) is a polysemic term, having various meanings and uses. It is used in philosophy and theology as a designation for the property or set of properties or attributes that make an entity or substance what it fundamentally is, and which it has by necessity, and without which it loses its identity... -- Essence - Wikipedia

 

[shunyadragon]

Not sure why people cannot grasp that God is One Echad, and expresses Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

as, , , because this is Tritheism pure and simply three Gods in one a common theme in th epolytheism of Hinduism as multiple Gos as aspects of the One God Brahman. The way it is described in the Trinity Jesus is God of His own identity.

How else could He stay on the throne, come to the earth and redeem mankind, fill all in all?

He was not on the throne He was described as seated to tight of God and God was on the throne.

All makes sense and easy to understand.

No ir is not that is why it is often described as I was told by the priest "it is a mystery just accept it,"

No normal created man or being could represent a perfect eternal Father God unless that person were eternal and also God Himself like Jesus Christ the Son of God, who is the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

Biblically the "Council of Gods" and the angels existed before Creation and were likely eternal.

 

[Truthseeker]

“It has long been generally believed that Jesus Christ was a unique incarnation of God such as had never before appeared in religious history and would never appear again. This tenet made the acceptance of any later Prophet impossible to a Christian. Yet there is nothing in Christ’s own statements, as recorded in the Gospel, to support this view, and it was not generally held during His lifetime.

Another opinion which Christians universally hold about Christ is that His teaching was absolute and final. They believe that if the Truth were partly withheld from them for a time because they could not bear it, it was divulged at Pentecost in its fullness and that now nothing remains to be revealed. But there is nothing in the account of Pentecost to suggest such an interpretation and there is no one who will believe that Jesus would have named the false prophets as characteristic of His age if this warning was to be followed by an immediate release of all Truth to the Church. What the Bible shows is rather a succession of teachers—Abraham, Moses and Christ, each measuring His Revelation to the needs and maturity of His authors….

Many of these false interpretations involve repudiation of the Word of God in favor of the word of man. This impious act is so craftily performed, with such an air of humility, that it might escape the notice of the most sincere and devout of worshippers. Probably few churchgoers realize today that the Gospel of Christ as known to the few in the pulpit is wholly different from the Gospel which Christ preached in Galilee as recorded in the Bible.

In spite of Christ’s promise of further revelation of Truth, through the Comforter, through His own return, through the Spirit of Truth, the Christian Church regards His revelation as final, and itself as the sole trustee of true religion. There is no room for the Supreme Redeemer of the Bible to bring in great changes for the establishment of the Kingdom of God. In fact this Kingdom is often described as a world-wide Church.

Having thus closed God’s Covenant with the Bible, sacred history—God-directed—came to an end, and secular history, having no sense of divine destiny nor unity, began…..

“Well might Christ warn His followers that false prophets would arise and misinterpret His teachings so as to delude even the most earnest and intelligent of His believers: from early times Christians have disputed about Christian truth in councils, in sects, in wars.

To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.”

Despite having a poor memory and not having real that book for a long time I remember a lot of what is written there in your quote especially the last sentence, and the paragraph that goes "Many of these false interpretations involve repudiation of the Word of God in favor of the word of man. This impious act is so craftily performed, with such an air of humility, that it might escape the notice of the most sincere and devout of worshippers. Probably few churchgoers realize today that the Gospel of Christ as known to the few in the pulpit is wholly different from the Gospel which Christ preached in Galilee as recorded in the Bible."

 

[Truthseeker]

As for Jesus fulfilling prophecy in Tanakh. There is nothing in Tanakh that tells us the Messiah would come only once, but there are suggestions that it would be more than once.

He did come more than once, just not in the way you expected.