Forgiveness

[Jimmy]

Touchy topic. A debate going nowhere. I’m out.

 

[Callisto]

And I’m sure you push that person out of your mind quickly. Otherwise your hatred would swell.

You seem to think emotions persist when that's not the case. Yes, the person's put out of mind after they've made it clear they have no remorse nor are likely to change their ways. Why continue to expend any energy, including emotions, on a pointless matter? The other person doesn't care and it certainly doesn't benefit you.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Our sins. How can I expect God to forgive me for my wrong doings, if I can't forgive those who have wronged me?

That's your personal opinion, which is based on your beliefs. Obviously, I disagree and consider the belief in sinning against God (who may not even exist in the first place) to be self-defeating and potentially harmful to a person's mental health and emotional well-being. I honestly think that Penn Jillette hit the nail on the head when he said, "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want?" And my answer is: I rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them, they would go on killing and raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine."

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Not arrogant. But hey if you can’t forgive someone who commits a crime because of a mental illness and shows no remorse then that’s ok by me

Why should we (those who disagree with you) care whether that's okay with you or not?

 

[Koldo]

It’s still a disagreement. I believe they have built up strong defense mechanisms to cope with it. I don’t think that’s a good idea so that’s where I disagree. They don’t see it it that way. They simply see it as moving on. Hey, if their cool with it and it works for them then it’s all good. However I am entitled to my opinion.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was talking about... You presume everyone has the same limitations as you...

 

[Trailblazer]

I can't address your religious beliefs as they appear to be different from my own (re: suffering in the afterlife). Even so, seems to me this falls under the heading of obsessing over things that are beyond your personal control. What you can control is sorting out why they're still on your mind and how/why it continues to negatively impact you. Without knowing the specifics (and I'm not asking for them), I can't make specific suggestions. IMO, I would say find ways to work through your feelings and find ways to redirect your behaviors influenced by the past. Do something that would be cathartic, like writing a letter to the person as though they're still alive, and purge yourself of everything that should have been said when they were alive. Tell them how you intend to move on and that you'll no longer allow them to influence your life. "Send it" however works for you (e.g., burn it, bury it). Then focus on your own thoughts, behavior, and actions. When you catch yourself being influenced by the past, acknowledge it's happening again then ask yourself why. Then deliberately redirect what you're thinking or doing.

Sorry for throwing that out at you without giving any specifics. I believe in a spiritual world that people (souls) go to when they die, but I am not sure if this person who died has fully crossed over or is earthbound. I am not sure what happened that led up to the death or what happened towards the end of this person's life because there was no communication between me and this person or between me and the medical professionals, thus I had no closure. Because I don't know for sure what happened I don't know for sure that he died because he chose to starve to death or if it was the disease killed him.

I believe that I can try to communicate with him using a psychic medium but I have not been psychologically ready to try that yet and my counselor agrees I should not attempt to do that until I am emotionally equipped to find out what I might find out. I know everyone does not believe in the paranormal, but I have periodically received signs that I believe are from him because they have no normal explanations, so I think he is trying to communicate to me. Possibly he wants to make amends for what amounts to a suicide, because he had been suicidal long before the disease. I don't know. I cannot know what was going on in his head or his body so I might be thinking completely wrong.

Years ago, we agreed that whoever was left behind would try to communicate to the other since we share the same beliefs about the afterlife. We even agreed upon what the person in the spiritual world would say that only the two of us knew about, in order to know we made contact. I need some kind of closure and I want to know the truth about what happened, but there is a conflict because a part of me is afraid of finding out the truth. There is also a part of me that does not want to forgive him for checking out and leaving me behind.

On top of all this, I was was told by the attending doctor who looked at all the medical records about a week before he died that that he suspected medical malpractice, so he told me I should ask for an internal investigation and file a malpractice lawsuit, since ethat is the only way I will ever know what actually happened. However, my counselor agreed that I need to try to contact him before I address the medical piece. I know I am going to do it, I just don't know when.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Sorry for throwing that out at you without giving any specifics. I believe in a spiritual world that people (souls) go to when they die, but I am not sure if this person who died has fully crossed over or is earthbound. I am not sure what happened that led up to the death or what happened towards the end of this person's life because there was no communication between me and this person or between me and the medical professionals, thus I had no closure. Because I don't know for sure what happened I don't know for sure that he died because he chose to starve to death or if it was the disease killed him.

I believe that I can try to communicate with him using a psychic medium but I have not been psychologically ready to try that yet and my counselor agrees I should not attempt to do that until I am emotionally equipped to find out what I might find out. I know everyone does not believe in the paranormal, but I have periodically received signs that I believe are from him because they have no normal explanations, so I think he is trying to communicate to me. Possibly he wants to make amends for what amounts to a suicide, because he had been suicidal long before the disease. I don't know. I cannot know what was going on in his head or his body so I might be thinking completely wrong.

Years ago, we agreed that whoever was left behind would try to communicate to the other since we share the same beliefs about the afterlife. We even agreed upon what the person in the spiritual world would say that only the two of us knew about, in order to know we made contact. I need some kind of closure and I want to know the truth about what happened, but there is a conflict because a part of me is afraid of finding out the truth. There is also a part of me that does not want to forgive him for checking out and leaving me behind.

On top of all this, I was was told by the attending doctor who looked at all the medical records about a week before he died that that he suspected medical malpractice, so he told me I should ask for an internal investigation and file a malpractice lawsuit, since ethat is the only way I will ever know what actually happened. However, my counselor agreed that I need to try to contact him before I address the medical piece. I know I am going to do it, I just don't know when.

As you know, I also believe that a psychic medium contacting this person can bring you the closure you need. And, as I've told you, I wish that I could help you in person, but I can't. However, my inbox is always open to you if you ever need to talk to me about your situation. I can help you from a distance.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Agreed. You don't need to forgive to move on. I use it to be a bit wiser ("fool me once...").

"Need" to forgive? No, perhaps not. But I note in your explanation that you seem to assume that you won't be giving the person another chance -- that you've not considered whether the offence was merely a lapse, or was caused by prior events outside of the offender's control, or pretty much anything else. "Fool me once..." says, "you were doing it deliberately."

I think that sometimes, wisdom includes allowing for the possibility that some of what might have hurt you may have been errors, mistakes, or at the very least unintended and truly regretted -- even if the regret can't be well-expressed. People are complicated. Their own pasts increase that complexity by orders of magnitude.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Is wanting to see someone getting killed for a wrongdoing compatible with forgiving that person?

Unequivocally not. Killing is abhorent to me.

 

[Koldo]

Unequivocally not.

I agree!

Killing is abhorent to me.

Killing of the innocent is abhorent to me.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Killing of the innocent is abhorent to me.

Then we disagree. All killing is abhorent to me, because I'm not capable of deciding who is or is not innocent. And despite all of the good will built into our justice systems, I don't believe anyone else is, either. If we are capable of making mistakes, then we should leave ourselves the ability to correct those mistakes. Once you've killed somebody, that ability no longer exists.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Eh, cut the person out your life. You can still forgive too. It’s not a big deal to forgive. It’s for you anyway. If you’d rather stay bitter that’s your choice

More on this: Forgiveness isn't just for the person doing the forgiving.
For example, when my brother was addicted to his prescription pain pills he very deeply hurt me. After he recovered forgiving him was for both of us amd indicated that all hurt and shame involved is in the past and to indicate our love for each other as siblings was still there are more important to nurture rather than hold onto than feelings over actions he wouldn't have normally done anyways.
But the girl who stole from me amd tried to break up my ex and I? 15 years later and forgiveness isn't gonna happen. It bothers me none, I rarely think about, there's no bitterness from me but an awareness she's never changed and still a conniving ***** who can't even be remotely happy unless she's dragged others down to her level to spread her own misery around.
Or this other girl I know. She's fun to hang out with but she's a shady person and you have to keeo her at a distance. And she's so good at manipulating and decieving people she even got me once. I'll party with her, but there can be no forgiveness because she hasn't stopped her crap amd she's basically untrustable beyond that.

 

[InChrist]

More on this: Forgiveness isn't just for the person doing the forgiving.
For example, when my brother was addicted to his prescription pain pills he very deeply hurt me. After he recovered forgiving him was for both of us amd indicated that all hurt and shame involved is in the past and to indicate our love for each other as siblings was still there are more important to nurture rather than hold onto than feelings over actions he wouldn't have normally done anyways.
But the girl who stole from me amd tried to break up my ex and I? 15 years later and forgiveness isn't gonna happen. It bothers me none, I rarely think about, there's no bitterness from me but an awareness she's never changed and still a conniving ***** who can't even be remotely happy unless she's dragged others down to her level to spread her own misery around.
Or this other girl I know. She's fun to hang out with but she's a shady person and you have to keeo her at a distance. And she's so good at manipulating and decieving people she even got me once. I'll party with her, but there can be no forgiveness because she hasn't stopped her crap amd she's basically untrustable beyond that.

You bring up an important point. Forgiveness doesn’t mean- no boundaries. One can forgive without allowing the abuser or manipulator to continue their destructive behavior or taking advantage. Such boundaries are important, often a wise aspect of forgiveness, and will be different in each situation.

 

[syo]

Should one forgive? I say yes, otherwise they get eaten up with anger & bitterness.

I forgive and forget only actions from the future.

 

[Jimmy]

If wanting to kill someone for a wrongdoing is compatible with forgiving that person, sure. I don't think most people would agree, but whatever floats your boat.

When I said you’re ultimately forgiving I was just stating that again to reinforce the beginning of our conversation then you went on a tangent talking about killing people

 

[Jimmy]

That's it. I see forgiveness as much more than letting go of anger. It also involves cancelling a debt. It means the person in question doesn't have to do anything (more) to make up for what they have done.

While letting go of anger is necessary for my well-being, forgiveness is not.

I’ll say it again. You’re forgiving the person weather you like it or not by letting go of anger.

Now what does killing have anything to do with this conversation? Wow

 

[Callisto]

"Need" to forgive? No, perhaps not. But I note in your explanation that you seem to assume that you won't be giving the person another chance -- that you've not considered whether the offence was merely a lapse, or was caused by prior events outside of the offender's control, or pretty much anything else. "Fool me once..." says, "you were doing it deliberately."

I think that sometimes, wisdom includes allowing for the possibility that some of what might have hurt you may have been errors, mistakes, or at the very least unintended and truly regretted -- even if the regret can't be well-expressed. People are complicated. Their own pasts increase that complexity by orders of magnitude.

Where did I say the person doesn't get a chance to redeem themselves? The opportunity is always there, the onus is on them not me. If it's a lapse then a responsible person would admit they made a mistake and apologise. If they don't have any integrity then, yes, "fool me once". That's the conclusion they leave you with when there's no effort to resolve conflict nor make amends.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You bring up an important point. Forgiveness doesn’t mean- no boundaries. One can forgive without allowing the abuser or manipulator to continue their destructive behavior or taking advantage. Such boundaries are important, often a wise aspect of forgiveness, and will be different in each situation.

It is an interesting aspect of humans. I asked myself why I evem associate with her in the first place, because although she's fun to be around. Emotionally it can't be much more than that because at some point she's goint to try to take advantage of it.
And, truly, it's because we're intellectual equals. That's rare enough for me in life I only met a few in college. And other than personal information I can discuss things with her and concepts most don't understand. She's also college educated so understands the lingo as well as being familiar with autism enough that I don't have to think as much about what I'm saying.
Amd even though I have to occasionally evaluate things, it's better than people thinking you're trying to intellectually intimidate and dominate everyone. Those sorts are typically insecure anyways, and not used to being around, I assume, intellectual autistics who know a lot about a lot.

 

[Callisto]

Sorry for throwing that out at you without giving any specifics. I believe in a spiritual world that people (souls) go to when they die, but I am not sure if this person who died has fully crossed over or is earthbound. I am not sure what happened that led up to the death or what happened towards the end of this person's life because there was no communication between me and this person or between me and the medical professionals, thus I had no closure. Because I don't know for sure what happened I don't know for sure that he died because he chose to starve to death or if it was the disease killed him.

I believe that I can try to communicate with him using a psychic medium but I have not been psychologically ready to try that yet and my counselor agrees I should not attempt to do that until I am emotionally equipped to find out what I might find out. I know everyone does not believe in the paranormal, but I have periodically received signs that I believe are from him because they have no normal explanations, so I think he is trying to communicate to me. Possibly he wants to make amends for what amounts to a suicide, because he had been suicidal long before the disease. I don't know. I cannot know what was going on in his head or his body so I might be thinking completely wrong.

Years ago, we agreed that whoever was left behind would try to communicate to the other since we share the same beliefs about the afterlife. We even agreed upon what the person in the spiritual world would say that only the two of us knew about, in order to know we made contact. I need some kind of closure and I want to know the truth about what happened, but there is a conflict because a part of me is afraid of finding out the truth. There is also a part of me that does not want to forgive him for checking out and leaving me behind.

On top of all this, I was was told by the attending doctor who looked at all the medical records about a week before he died that that he suspected medical malpractice, so he told me I should ask for an internal investigation and file a malpractice lawsuit, since ethat is the only way I will ever know what actually happened. However, my counselor agreed that I need to try to contact him before I address the medical piece. I know I am going to do it, I just don't know when.

I'm no therapist so it's only IMO but suicide is as personal a matter as it gets and it's not really about anyone else. So while you feel the loss, I don't know if it's a matter of someone needing to make amends for taking their own life. The people left behind feel a range of emotions but I don't know if I would frame it in my mind as that person having wronged me. I have had known people who've committed suicide, I just didn't see it that way. If he is trying to reach you, it could well be that's the message he's seeking to convey, "it wasn't meant to hurt you, and I'm sorry that you are, but it was my decision for me."

If you're afraid to find out, I would say that's the reason it's weighing heavy on you, you're putting off seeking a resolution. So, of course, it's not done for you and you can't move on.

 

[Koldo]

Then we disagree. All killing is abhorent to me, because I'm not capable of deciding who is or is not innocent. And despite all of the good will built into our justice systems, I don't believe anyone else is, either. If we are capable of making mistakes, then we should leave ourselves the ability to correct those mistakes. Once you've killed somebody, that ability no longer exists.

I am not sure I follow...
Being unable to assess who is innocent doesn't entail that killing the guilty is abhorent. Only that we ought to refrain from killing.