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Former Fundementalist Christian denies Christ
- Thread starter Solon
- Start date
Smoke
Done here.
I'm having a little problem with the logical leap that if the mythology surrounding Jesus isn't credible, then Jesus must not have existed.
Christian mythology is similar in many respects to other myths, and it would be crazy to suggest otherwise. It doesn't necessarily follow that Christian mythology is "false." (In fact, taking a broader view of mythology -- a view generally rejected by orthodox Christians -- it's actually more of an indication that the Christian mythology is on some level "true.")
Whether or not Christian beliefs about Jesus correspond exactly to fact, the existence of Jesus himself hardly rests on the factuality of later beliefs. The blurb for the movie suggests that "The early founders of Christianity seem wholly unaware of the idea of a human Jesus." Granted that Paul places more emphasis on the "spiritual" Jesus than the "historical" Jesus, the claim still seems outrageous to me. I'd be interested to see how they make their argument.
Christian mythology is similar in many respects to other myths, and it would be crazy to suggest otherwise. It doesn't necessarily follow that Christian mythology is "false." (In fact, taking a broader view of mythology -- a view generally rejected by orthodox Christians -- it's actually more of an indication that the Christian mythology is on some level "true.")
Whether or not Christian beliefs about Jesus correspond exactly to fact, the existence of Jesus himself hardly rests on the factuality of later beliefs. The blurb for the movie suggests that "The early founders of Christianity seem wholly unaware of the idea of a human Jesus." Granted that Paul places more emphasis on the "spiritual" Jesus than the "historical" Jesus, the claim still seems outrageous to me. I'd be interested to see how they make their argument.
FFH
Veteran Member
Jesus Christ, who is God the Son, existed from the beginning, He now exists and always will exist. God the Son came to earth and existed as an earthly being to show us that God the Father has a tangible body of flesh as we do. To say that God the Son (Jesus Christ) does not exist is to say that God the Father never existed, and that we do not exist. We are only imaginary beings. You say we only exist because we can be seen. This is the garbage of philosophy. Existence of a being is not dependent on someone seeing that being. This is the basis of philosophical thinking which can be proven wrong. God the Son exists in spite of the fact that He is not visible to the human eye. God the Son came to show us that God the Father exists and is a human being, as we are, only with more knowledge and power.
FFH
Veteran Member
What If I said I had a picture of Jesus Christ or God the Son? Would you believe i posessed such a picture? If I showed it to you would you even believe it was Jesus Christ or God the Son? What if God the Son were to appear to you? Would you believe it was God the Son? Just seeing someone will not make you believe he is who he says he is. It is something that flows through your whole being and can be felt. It is a feeling that cannot be denied. A feeling of knowing with your whole spirit or soul. You know that He exists and is a being, as we are. There is no reason to see Him. He exists. I am a witness to this.
FFH
Veteran Member
I have seen a demon and I know it was a demon not because of seeing him but because of the feeling I felt when seeing him. I felt evilness. I felt who he was. Just seeing him was not enough. There is a feeling that goes along with it. There are other senses involved when trying to decipher a being. Not just sight.
Sight alone does not prove or disprove someone exists. Our sight is a very primitive one. We do not even use all that God has given us to decipher truth or the existence of beings. Use all of your spiritual senses not just your natural ones.
Sight alone does not prove or disprove someone exists. Our sight is a very primitive one. We do not even use all that God has given us to decipher truth or the existence of beings. Use all of your spiritual senses not just your natural ones.
FFH
Veteran Member
Is that coming from your spiritual senses or your natural ones? They are easily confused. Robert Price is a prime example of this. His spiritual senses are dead and he is looking for evidence that Jesus Christ never lived on earth or was just a myth. There is no evidence that Jesus Christ never existed on earth.JerryL said:
It is possible to prove the existence of a being on earth, but impossible to prove that a being did not exist. Clearly Robert Price has lost touch with his spiritual senses, and is trying to disprove someones existence, which is impossible. Clearly this man has lost touch with his spiritual and natural senses. This is the definition of insanity.
JerryL
Well-Known Member
So perhaps when you think there is a God, it's not your spiritual sense saying so; but a region in the back of your brain firing and you are getting confused.
A generally accurate statement; much like how you could concievably prove that there are phase-shifted pink unicorns, but you cannot prove that there are not.
In the case of Yeshua; there's not much evidence in support of his existance; just the claims of John and Peter; and there's quite a bit suggesting that his story is borrowed from others.
Do you believe things that don't fit into your spiritual beliefs? Would you believe that Yeshua Bin Yeseph may be an invention of Peter's even though that's contrary to your spiritual belief? Or will you believe the lie that he definately existed?
FFH
Veteran Member
Interesting twist on what I originally said. Nice try.JerryL said:
So you really do believe the lie that Jesus never existed or was ever born to earth.JerryL said:
Yeshua is the Mesiah that came to earth and died for us all. He lived on earth, died and will return to earth as Savior and Redeemer to all those that believe.
FFH
Veteran Member
The natural mind is eager to believe a lie in order to justify and fullfil the natural evil desires of the body. The mind has to accept a lie in order to be justified in committing sin. The mind has to be tricked into believing that sins will not be punished. If we believe the lie that Jesus never existed, then this will minimize the thought of being judged for sins. Jesus will be our judge, and if we can trick our minds into believing that he does not exist then we don't have to worry about being judged.
Our spiritual mind knows better. Only the spiritual mind will accept the truth and reject the lie that Jesus Christ never existed on earth or in heaven. Yeshua is the Messiah.
! Corinthians 2: 14
"But the natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Our spiritual mind knows better. Only the spiritual mind will accept the truth and reject the lie that Jesus Christ never existed on earth or in heaven. Yeshua is the Messiah.
! Corinthians 2: 14
"But the natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
FFH
Veteran Member
We know that there are at least two Gods. God the Father and God the Son. That is sufficient to explain the "us". Jesus Christ is God the Son and he created the earth, and all that is in it, with the direction of God the Father. God the Son and God the Father created man in their image. They are co-creators of man. It makes no difference who's image it was. All God's look like man.jazzalta said:
FFH
Veteran Member
I assume those who do not believe that Jesus Christ ever walked the earth also do not believe or have ever heard of Flavius Josephus. http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/home.htm Can we discount this great historian? Can we say that he is a fraud also? Jesus Christ a myth? Josephus does not seem to think so. There is documentation that Jesus existed on earth from someone who lived during that time.
FFH
Veteran Member
A short synopsis of Jesus Christ by Flavius Josephus. http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/testimonium.htm
robtex
Veteran Member
It certainly is an entertaining topic of debate however debating it Christmas seems like a bad idea. However, I do have a couple of links to add to this thread that I have found informative on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus-Myth
http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/
the second one is one of the most well put together sites on the subject I have ever seen.
In the link Solon posted I would find it really interesting if anyone has polled the US Christian popluation to see what they really know about other religions. I have found outside of religious debate forums most Christians seemed very ill informed about religion in general including their own though, as a number of Christians here have pointed out belief in Christ is a matter of faith as opposed to knowledge.
Also on the webpage Solon posted here:
http://www.thegodmovie.com/dvd.php
the points of
1) The early founders of Christianity seem wholly unaware of the idea of a human Jesus
2) Fundamentalism is as strong today as it ever has been, with an alarming 44% of Americans believing Jesus will return to earth in their lifetimes
# 1 it would be cool to read what they various early writers wrote about.
The current chapters of the Bible were elected by the catholic church but many more books and authors exists.
#2 Jesus is expected to come back in everyone's lifetime yet in generation after generation JC is late for his own party.
As a further footnote a web author notes that Nazareth (from whence Jesus came) is not mentioned in the O.T. Nor is Jesus early years included in the Bible and the writings on it. The Gospels of Thomas, which talks about Jesus's teen years are excluded from the text. Narareth is not even given a year of inception or when it was built.
http://holylandnetwork.com/nazareth/nazareth.htm
futher footnotes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=141&letter=N
http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm
I would really recommend reading the jesuspuzzle website it is a great read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus-Myth
http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/
the second one is one of the most well put together sites on the subject I have ever seen.
In the link Solon posted I would find it really interesting if anyone has polled the US Christian popluation to see what they really know about other religions. I have found outside of religious debate forums most Christians seemed very ill informed about religion in general including their own though, as a number of Christians here have pointed out belief in Christ is a matter of faith as opposed to knowledge.
Also on the webpage Solon posted here:
http://www.thegodmovie.com/dvd.php
the points of
1) The early founders of Christianity seem wholly unaware of the idea of a human Jesus
2) Fundamentalism is as strong today as it ever has been, with an alarming 44% of Americans believing Jesus will return to earth in their lifetimes
# 1 it would be cool to read what they various early writers wrote about.
The current chapters of the Bible were elected by the catholic church but many more books and authors exists.
#2 Jesus is expected to come back in everyone's lifetime yet in generation after generation JC is late for his own party.
As a further footnote a web author notes that Nazareth (from whence Jesus came) is not mentioned in the O.T. Nor is Jesus early years included in the Bible and the writings on it. The Gospels of Thomas, which talks about Jesus's teen years are excluded from the text. Narareth is not even given a year of inception or when it was built.
http://holylandnetwork.com/nazareth/nazareth.htm
futher footnotes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=141&letter=N
http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm
I would really recommend reading the jesuspuzzle website it is a great read.