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Former Fundementalist Christian denies Christ

Zephyr

Moved on
FFH said:
There is a photograph of Jesus Christ. It is called the Shroud of Turin.

Computer generated pictures of Jesus Christ from the Shroud of Turin. http://www.geocities.com/player2000gi/turin.htm

Picture of Jesus Christ burned into the Shroud of Turin at the time of his resurrection http://www.historian.net/shroud.htm

or just google "Shroud of Turin"
One problem dude... the shroud has been carbon dated and found to be from around the 14th century. I know! Jesus must have a time machine :areyoucra
 

FFH

Veteran Member
Zephyr said:
One problem dude... the shroud has been carbon dated and found to be from around the 14th century. I know! Jesus must have a time machine :areyoucra
The carbon dating done on the shroud was invalid.
 

jazzalta

Member
FFH said:
I assume those who do not believe that Jesus Christ ever walked the earth also do not believe or have ever heard of Flavius Josephus. http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/home.htm Can we discount this great historian? Can we say that he is a fraud also? Jesus Christ a myth? Josephus does not seem to think so. There is documentation that Jesus existed on earth from someone who lived during that time.
Some interesting information here: www.bidstrup.com/apologetics.htm
The case is made by Dr. Edwin M. Yamauchi (Professor of History at Miami University) regarding the authenticity of the works of Josephus pertaining to Jesus. I think it presents a different side and point of view to with writings of Josephus.
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Pah said:
Looks surprisingly like a European, doesn't it!
I have seen one that look like a Chinese as well in the early documentation of Christianity in China. Must find time to look for that picture.:D

Then Jesus will look like a middle east Jews, a European, and a Chinese. We can then have Jesus is three, and the three is one Trinity built.:biglaugh:
 

FFH

Veteran Member

Pardus

Proud to be a Sinner.
I believe he existed, i just don't believe he's anything divine.

That's my second time denying him today! :D
 

FFH

Veteran Member
Sunstone said:
How convienent.
How convenient of them to use a piece of the shroud that was not valid, and was spliced into the original linen, and would date to the 14th century.

"C-14 carbon dating fiasco"
Google it yourself.
 

jazzalta

Member
FFH said:
More evidence that the shroud is much older than the C-14 carbon dating concludes.

http://www.shroudstory.com/faq-vanillin.htm

The main arguement here is that the piece of the shroud used in the carbon dating was spliced onto the original piece of linen or shroud and that newer spliced piece was used in the carbon dating.

http://www.factsplusfacts.com/carbon-14-turin-shroud.htm

http://www.shroudstory.com/faq-carbon-14.htm
There are as many sites that dismiss this shroud as proclaim it as holy. I truly think the jury is out on this one. Funny though that it only started showing up in about the 14th century. If authentic, you would think something this important would have far more prominence than it did.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
jazzalta said:
There are as many sites that dismiss this shroud as proclaim it as holy. I truly think the jury is out on this one. Funny though that it only started showing up in about the 14th century. If authentic, you would think something this important would have far more prominence than it did.
There is more than enough scientific evidence proving the shroud to be an authentic piece of linen dating back 2000 years ago from the area of Jerusalem. Blood stains and other evidence show this man was beaten, whipped 39 times, a crown of thorns placed on his head, and then crucified, and his side pierced, as the Bible has stated.

You choose to believe a lie rather than the truth.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Sunstone said:
How convienent.
I do remember hearing that the original dismissal of the carbon dating was flawed.

From: http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/8/4/5/1

Reversal of fortune for Turin Shroud

13 April 2004

Italian scientists have discovered that the back of the Turin Shroud has the image of a man’s face - and possibly his hands – impressed upon it. Giulio Fanti and Roberto Maggiolio of Padova University used various image-processing techniques to enhance the faint features that can be seen in photographs of the Shroud (J. Opt. A6 491). This is the first time the reverse side of the controversial relic has ever been studied.


Figure 1
The Turin Shroud is a piece of linen, some 4.4 metres long and 1.1 metres wide, that contains images of the body and face of a man. The Shroud is believed by many to be the cloth Jesus was wrapped in before being buried. Although the front of the Shroud has been extensively studied, its back has remained hidden beneath another piece of linen, which was sewn on by nuns to cover up damage caused by a fire in 1532. However, this protective layer was removed in 2002, allowing the back of the cloth to be photographed.

Fanti and Maggiolo have now studied these photographs, together with others taken at various times since the 1930s. Because the images are extremely faint, the duo has used an array of image-processing techniques -- including Gaussian filters, Fourier transforms and template matching -- to highlight human features.


Figure 2
They found that the face of the man that can be seen on the reverse of the Shroud matches that observed on the front. The image shows faint details of a nose, eyes, hair, beard and moustache (figures 2 and 3). The Italian duo was also able to make out weak images of the man’s hands, but could not produce images of his shoulders or back.


Figure 3
These new findings could help to shed light on the origins of the cloth but are more likely to fuel further debate over it. In 1979, carbon-dating techniques revealed that the Shroud dated from medieval times and therefore could not have been used to bury Christ. However, many scientists have argued that the carbon-dating techniques used to study the Shroud were flawed.

Fanti and Maggiolo are now saying that the Shroud is unlikely to be a fraud because the image of the face is superficial on both sides of the cloth and only involves the topmost fibres of the material. “It is extremely difficult to make a fake with these features,” says Fanti.

About the author

Belle Dumé is Science Writer at PhysicsWeb
 

St0ne

Active Member
I think there was something about how the impression are quite disproportionate to the shape of a human body, oversized head, odd symetry, etc.

Actually I'd like to hear what you guys think of the evidence for the Buddha's existance.
 

jazzalta

Member
FFH said:
There is more than enough scientific evidence proving the shroud to be an authentic piece of linen dating back 2000 years ago from the area of Jerusalem. Blood stains and other evidence show this man was beaten, whipped 39 times, a crown of thorns placed on his head, and then crucified, and his side pierced, as the Bible has stated.

You choose to believe a lie rather than the truth.
No, I choose to study ALL the facts and make a decision. And like I said, there are as many scientists to doubt the shroud's authenticity as there are ones to accept it. And there is absolutely no secular proof, even if this cloth was 2000 years old, to link it to Jesus.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
There is more than enough scientific evidence proving the shroud to be an authentic piece of linen dating back 2000 years ago from the area of Jerusalem. Blood stains and other evidence show this man was beaten, whipped 39 times, a crown of thorns placed on his head, and then crucified, and his side pierced, as the Bible has stated.
Is this gonna be another spot where I ask you for actual facts and you say "you know I don't have any"?

Point me to the data that corroborates the date, location, and origin you claim for the shroud.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
JerryL said:
Is this gonna be another spot where I ask you for actual facts and you say "you know I don't have any"?

Point me to the data that corroborates the date, location, and origin you claim for the shroud.
I have plenty of information on VHS that would discredit any theories that the shroud is a fake. Sorry can't link you to my personal VHS collection of evidence on the shroud. It's a shame. Such good information there too.

There are several things that date the linen back to the time and place of Jesus Christ's crucifixion. The style of the weave of the linen, the seams of the cloth, the spices, oils, various flowers and herbs used for burial were all analyzed and found only in the area where Jesus lived and preached. The style of whip used and the amount of lashes allowed (39 no more and no less according to Jewish traditions) Tons of microscopic evidences on the linen such as pollen, rock and blood samples. The linen also undergoes a process of "plasticizing" in which the linen develops a natural plastic coating. This is one way in which to date the shroud. It's a shame you can't see the video, but then again I doubt you would want to. You are just testing me to see if I really even know anything at all.

If I find a link to these videos in written form I will post it.

Here is an entire research center set up just for the study of this cloth.
www.shroudofturin.com
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
I have plenty of information on VHS that would discredit any theories that the shroud is a fake.
Not what I asked for.

There are several things that date the linen back to the time and place of Jesus Christ's crucifixion. The style of the weave of the linen, the seams of the cloth, the spices, oils, various flowers and herbs used for burial were all analyzed and found only in the area where Jesus lived and preached. The style of whip used and the amount of lashes allowed (39 no more and no less according to Jewish traditions) Tons of microscopic evidences on the linen such as pollen, rock and blood samples. The linen also undergoes a process of "plasticizing" in which the linen develops a natural plastic coating. This is one way in which to date the shroud.
Can you offer actual cites?

Wouldn't the lashes meeting Jewesh tradiations be indicitive of fraud? It was, supposedly, the Romans who whipped Jesus.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
JerryL said:
Wouldn't the lashes meeting Jewesh tradiations be indicitive of fraud? It was, supposedly, the Romans who whipped Jesus.
The Roman rulers used strict Jewish laws when dealing with Jewish prisoners. They were not allowed to whip Jewish prisoners more than 39 times according to Jewish law.
 
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