Former Fundementalist Christian denies Christ

[Scuba Pete]

I would never base my faith on some old linens. Who knows if it was Jesus' or not even if it WAS old enough. Either way, it has little to do with the topic at hand: someone who obviously lost their faith in Jesus. Again: big whoop! If someone FINDING their faith will not convince you of the truth of the resurrection, then why bring up someone LOSING their faith as proof of it being false?

The Scriptures described this very sort of thing:

Matthew 13:18 "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown." NIV

You might want to read the whole chapter for a fuller understanding. I emboldened the two areas he probably fits in!

 

[JerryL]

The Roman rulers used strict Jewish laws when dealing with Jewish prisoners. They were not allowed to whip Jewish prisoners more than 39 times according to Jewish law.

That seems false, as Jewesh law did not allow for crucifixion... instead requiring stoning. Can you support your claim?

You also appear to make several factual errors.

Firstly, the Romans used a whip or scourge called a flagrum. It has several ends (no specific number) and so you could not tell from a vidctim how many swings were made.

Secondly, you miscite the Jewesh tradition, which prohibits "more than 40". You could lash someone once under Jewesh law quite sufficiently.

 

[FFH]

Can you offer actual cites?

I will find you actual cites that will back up my claims.

 

[FFH]

That seems false, as Jewesh law did not allow for crucifixion... instead requiring stoning. Can you support your claim?

You also aooear to make several factual errors.

Firstly, the Romans used a whip or scourge called a flagrum. It has several ends (no specific number) and so you could not tell from a vidctim how many swings were made.

Secondly, you miscite the Jewesh tradition, which prohibits "more than 40". You could lash someone once under Jewesh law quite sufficiently.

You are right the actual number allowed was 40 but the Jews did not do more than 39 just to be on the safe side. The whip had 3 extensions and so a whipping of 39 would end up leaving 117 marks. Each extension of the whip would have several small metal balls with small metal spikes.

As with the case of Jesus he had the maximum amount of markings and this is well documented on the shroud.

The Jews called for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

 

[JerryL]

You are right the actual number was 40 but the Romans and Jews were not allowed to do more than 39 just to be safe

I'm still waiting on your cite.

the whip had 3 extensions and so a whipping of 39 would end up leaving 117 marks.

Making the rediculious assumption that two straps never landed on one another, and that the same spot was never hit twice... yes. Unfortunately, that's a rediculious assumption (I take it you've never whipped or flogged anything?). I'm also not convinced that there were uniformly three ends on a flagrum; can you support.

Each extension of the whip would have several small metal balls with small metal spikes.

Actually a single small ball.

As with the case of Jesus he had the maximum amount of markings and this is well documented on the shroud.

Then you should have no problem providing a link compelte with picture. I did a quick google and got nothing of the kind.

 

[FFH]

In the case of Jesus there was one whip, or flagrum, with three extensions, and three small metal balls, with small spikes on each ball. He was scourged 39 times (the maximum allowed) which left 117 marks with the coresponding balls and spikes matching up exactly on the shroud that covered Jesus Christ's back area. By examining the shroud you can see that this is documented. There was not only a front view of Jesus Christ but a back view as well.

 

[Solon]

Well Solon,

I am sure that Jesus is running scared now! He has been found out! Yet out of ALL those saviors (which he talked about) only HE was resurrected. Thought you should know.

LOL, I think Jesus is pretty dead, and he won't care one way or the other. I doubt he'll be doing any running.

S

 

[FFH]

I will find you a link to the back side of the shroud. It may take me a while to find it. Don't hold your breath.

If the person doing the scourging was skilled enough all three extensions, with the three balls to weigh them down, would hit bare skin each time and tear flesh with the spikes. Mel Gibson's prortrayal of this was very accurate. Very bloody and deadly if done more than the allowed amount.

 

[FFH]

Everything that I have told you so far is documented on several videos. To find all this information on the internet would take a very long time. Look for it yourself. I don't need to be convinced and I doubt that you will be convinced if I gather all the information for you. Look for it yourself if you really care that much about it, which I doubt that you do. I have plenty of information to satisfy myself and I am not interested in trying to prove something to someone that won't believe anyway. I will however make an attempt in the next few days to gather as much information as I can to back up my claims. It will take days, not hours or minutes.

 

[JerryL]

In the case of Jesus there was one whip, or flagrum, with three extensions, and three small metal balls, with small spikes on each ball.

A new claim also requiring support.

He was scourged 39 times (the maximum allowed) which left 117 marks with the coresponding balls and spikes matching up exactly on the shroud that covered Jesus Christ's back area.

Im sill waiting on this; though again it's inconsistant with a realistic understanding of what a flagrum would do. Balls on the end of a flagrum open up the skin, and then the undelying subcutanious tissue as the tines strike the same points over and over. 117 hits don't leave 117 wounds.

That said, I find no support for your claim regarding the back of the shroud; still await it. I also still await your support that Jesus was lashed 39 times with a three-tailed flagrum.

By examining the shroud you can see that this is documented.

I would love to; but I seem to have misplaced mine. I'll have to settle for the Church's.

If the person doing the scourging was skilled enough all three extensions, with the three balls to weigh them down, would hit bare skin each time and tear flesh with the spikes.

There is no need for spikes at all. Balls tear skin quite well... for that matter, you can tear skin and break bone with a simple bullwhip (no weighted tip at all).

Again, you are making statements which may sound convincing to a layman; but sound rediculious to someone who'se actually used a whip.

 

[JerryL]

Everything that I have told you so far is documented on several videos. To find all this information on the internet would take a very long time. Look for it yourself. I don't need to be convinced and I doubt that you will be convinced if I gather all the information for you.

Here it is, the inevitiable cop-out complete with "it's not cause I don't know it... I just don't wanna tell you".

for it yourself if you really care that much about it, which I doubt that you do. I have plenty of information to satisfy myself and I am not interested in trying to prove something to someone that won't believe anyway.

I took a peek and found no references at all to your 117 lashes. I'm incredulious of the claim for the reasons cited above.

I will however make an attempt in the next few days to gather as much information as I can to back up my claims. It will take days, not hours or minutes.

I look forward to it; but I won't hold my breath.

 

[FFH]

You are right they could not find exactly 117 marks but counted over a hundred on the shroud.

 

[FFH]

They did, however, count exactly 39 stripes and saw the three extensions with the three ball marks on each extension.

 

[FFH]

I am searching for a picture of these markings. I think it is most convincing.

 

[JerryL]

You are right the actual number was 40 but the Romans and Jews were not allowed to do more than 39 just to be safe and the whip had 3 extensions and so a whipping of 39 would end up leaving 117 marks. Each extension of the whip would have several small metal balls with small metal spikes.

As with the case of Jesus he had the maximum amount of markings and this is well documented on the shroud.

They did, however, count exactly 39 stripes and saw the three extensions with the three ball marks.

So a minute ago it was 117 counted (and well documented) and now it's 39 counted, and 117 assumed by three "extensions"?

OK. Let's look at a falgrum and see if that's even consistant.

As you can see, a flagrum breaks into it's parts long before it would impact. Your claim that a weapon like the one above would leave a single stripe with "extensions" in a swing is patently false.

On someone with anywhere near 40 strikes; there would be no way to determine the exact number of hits from a photo or casual examination (or liekly even from a through autoposy).

Though I'm getting worried that all this conversation is doing is teaching you how to make a more consistant fabrication.

 

[FFH]

It looks like most of the information is in books and films only available through purchase. The internet is not going to give a lot of free information about this subject. I will still keep looking.

 

[FFH]

The picture that you have provided only has two balls on each extension. The one that was used to scourge Jesus had three balls on each extension and the corresponding marks are on the shroud.

 

[JerryL]

The picture that you have provided only has two balls on each extension. The one that was used to scourge Jesus had three balls on each extension and the corresponding marks are on the shroud.

Another unsbstantiated claim; but you miss the point. The point is that you don't get radial "extensions" from a hit from a flagrum... nor could you possibly count 117 strikes. They overlap.

 

[FFH]

The whip that was used would not have had a short single extension such as yours. This is also documented on the shroud. A longer single extension with three smaller extensions.

 

[FFH]

Another unsbstantiated claim; but you miss the point. The point is that you don't get radial "extensions" from a hit from a flagrum... nor could you possibly count 117 strikes. They overlap.

With three balls on each extension this would be more than enough weight to seperate each piece of leather if done right, especially if the inner ball were slightly less weight than the middle ball and the middle ball slightly less wieght than the outer ball. There is a science to it that obviously allowed for each extension to leave a mark on the back, even to the point of over 100 marks, if done right.