Fox Knew They Were Peddling 2020 Election Lies

[exchemist]

They all have documented history,

I find it peculiar that Fox is being attacked for it while others seem to get a convenient pass.

You would expect Dominion to go after the channel with the most impact, as that will have caused them the most reputational damage.

 

[Quagmire]

But he's not a news reporter. He runs a talk show, doesn't he?

OK then, how about:

(as if to say) "Now I have to get on air and peddle and/or co-sign this crap".

So he can set the agenda for discussion.

I don't think that necessarily follows. If the station he's working for has an agenda he pretty much has to fall in line.

His bosses/sponsors/ audience have certain expectations about the issues he's going to cover and the position he's going to take on those issues.

He doesn't have to talk up something he knows to be untrue, surely?

I think you're assuming he has more choice about the topics he covers than he probably does.

Or are you saying he voss obeying orderss? That's pretty weak of him if so.

I'm saying it's nice to know he has some pangs of conscience about what he's doing.

That doesn't mean I think we should elect him president or ask the pope to canonize him or start wearing t-shirts with his face on it.

It just means what it says.

 

[exchemist]

OK then, how about:

(as if to say) "Now I have to get on air and peddle and/or co-sign this crap".



I don't think that necessarily follows. If the station he's working for has an agenda he pretty much has to fall in line.

His bosses/sponsors/ audience have certain expectations about the issues he's going to cover and the position he's going to take on those issues.



I think you're assuming he has more choice about the topics he covers than he probably does.



I'm saying it's nice to know he has some pangs of conscience about what he's doing.

That doesn't mean I think we should elect him president or ask the pope to canonize him or start wearing t-shirts with his face on it.

It just means what it says.

I take all your points but it still strikes me as fairly despicable for a current affairs commentator to devote airtime to promoting a story he knows to be false that destroys trust in the democratic process. Anyone with scruples would refuse to do that. A guy with his profile is hardly powerless within the organisation.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You would expect Dominion to go after the channel with the most impact, as that will have caused them the most reputational damage.

And don't forget the deepest pockets. There are small news sources that were far more egregious in their claims, but almost no one believed them and even if they lost they would not have the money to pay for the lawyers that one would have had to use.

FOX losing would be a big warning flag to those that would try to gain fame and fortune by this tactic in the future.

 

[Windwalker]

If, ultimately, he chooses his career over his conscience, that just makes him a garden variety human IMO.

It would take a special kind of person to choose otherwise.

The word I chose for that special kind of person is "moral". He chose the amoral path. He sold his soul.

Like I said, if he was just misguided and acting insane himself, that is forgivable. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do", as an example. In his case, he knew what he was doing, and chose to act upon it to the harm of others despite knowing how wrong it was. That makes him morally culpable. It is truly severing one's own conscience, or selling one's soul.

But somewhat to your point, I agree, it's good to know in a way that he actually knew it was crap he was being told. Too bad he chose to go along with it, forever marking his own character in his participation in the fraud. The moral thing would have been for him to refuse to go along with it.

 

[Quagmire]

I take all your points but it still strikes me as fairly despicable for a current affairs commentator to devote airtime to promoting a story he knows to be false . . .

Welcome to American political journalism. The days of Edward R. Murrow, Walter Cronkite, and Barbara Walters are far behind us.

Political commentators these days aren't paid to tell the truth, they're paid to maintain an audience and boost ratings by telling a certain segment of American voters what they want to hear.

That sort of profession is going to attract a certain type of individual and for the most part it's not the type of individual that you would normally expect to opt to throw away fame and fortune to become a whistleblower.

*Edit: with the exception of a few of my favorite comedians of course , line of reasoning being: if we're talking about people and society the funnier and more ridiculous something sounds the more likely it is to be true.

American political journalism has turned into the verbal version of professional wrestling.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people here who think that's real too.

that destroys trust in the democratic process. Anyone with scruples would refuse to do that. A guy with his profile is hardly powerless within the organisation.

Well, he did inform his producer that Sydney Powell was lying and that doesn't seem to have made any difference.

It seems pretty obvious that he didn't want to run with this story but in the end he did anyway.

The fact that he did so reluctantly and the fact that his reluctance seems to have stemmed at least in part from concern for his audience is what I respect.

Would I have respected him more if he'd refused to do the story or exposed the whole mess publicly?

Sure. But you can't fault somebody for not being a hero. How many of us are?

In any case, the $35 million salary FOX is paying him per year would represent a fair amount of pressure the organization would have on him too.

 

[Windwalker]

Sure. But you can't fault somebody for not being a hero. How many of us are?

Yes, I can fault him for being complicit in a crime. Just because, "if I don't do it someone else will", can be an excuse we try to tell ourselves for not making a moral stand, that doesn't mean they aren't morally culpable. They are.

In any case, the $35 million salary FOX is paying him per year would represent a fair amount of pressure the organization would have on him too.

And the fact that he commands that kind of salary, would mean if he and the other hosts all said "We refuse to go along with this", they would in fact have quite a lot of leverage. If they all had the moral courage to do the right thing, then I believe Fox would have likely chosen otherwise. To loose all of them would do considerable damage to their business.

They can't just replace those personalities overnight and not lose their shirt on it. But they chose the cowardly path of self-preservation instead. They are responsible. What is that they say in the military about "just following orders"? Is that an excuse that stands up in their courts martial?

 

[Quagmire]

Yes, I can fault him for being complicit in a crime. Just because, "if I don't do it someone else will", can be an excuse we try to tell ourselves for not making a moral stand, that doesn't mean they aren't morally culpable. They are.


And the fact that he commands that kind of salary, would mean if he and the other hosts all said "We refuse to go along with this", they would in fact have quite a lot of leverage. If they all had the moral courage to do the right thing, then I believe Fox would have likely chosen otherwise. To loose all of them would do considerable damage to their business.

They can't just replace those personalities overnight and not lose their shirt on it. But they chose the cowardly path of self-preservation instead. They are responsible. What is that they say in the military about "just following orders"? Is that an excuse that stands up in their courts martial?

You know, if you post at somebody you should give them a chance to reply to that post before you post at them again.

If you're interested in having an actual discussion I mean.

On the other hand, if all you want to do is lecture at somebody, carry on.

 

[Windwalker]

You know, if you post at somebody you should give them a chance to reply to that post before you post help them again.

If you're interested in having an actual discussion I mean.

On the other hand, if all you want to do is lecture at somebody, carry on.

Sorry, like before you had combined your response to me with his, so I assume it applied this time as well. My mistake. Please, if you wish to respond to me directly this time, rather than rolling it up again into your response to him, please do so. I would be interested in your answers to my points.

 

[Quagmire]

The word I chose for that special kind of person is "moral". He chose the amoral path. He sold his soul.

A lot of people would for $35 million a year.

Like I said, if he was just misguided and acting insane himself, that is forgivable. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do", as an example. In his case, he knew what he was doing, and chose to act upon it to the harm of others despite knowing how wrong it was. That makes him morally culpable. It is truly severing one's own conscience, or selling one's soul.

In my view nobody ever really gets away with any of that, so taking it upon ourselves to judge him is redundant.

But somewhat to your point, I agree, it's good to know in a way that he actually knew it was crap he was being told. Too bad he chose to go along with it, forever marking his own character in his participation in the fraud. The moral thing would have been for him to refuse to go along with it.

There are different levels of morality just like there are different levels of courage, and in his place I think refusing to go along with it would have taken more of each then most of us have at our disposal.

Of course we don't know all the circumstances.

What we do know that we didn't know before is (like I say):

1. Tucker Carlson is willing to put up at least some opposition when asked to perpetuate outright fraud.

2. He seems to have some genuine concern for his audience and awareness when it comes to his responsibilities towards them.

None of this excuses what he did, but it does make me look at the man differently.

Whether or not he followed his conscience at least we know now that he has one.

 

[fantome profane]

A lot of people would for $35 million a year.

Cucker was born into an extremely wealthy family, he never had to work a day in his life if he didn’t want to. I don’t have respect for millionaires who lie to make a few more million. If he took a principled stand he might have lost his job, but he would have gotten another one (if he wanted), or he could have retired to one of his multiple mansions and lived in luxury.

He is probably more interested in keeping the Republican tax cuts for millionaires than he is his salary from Faux Noise.

But worst of all, he is still doing it. He doesn’t need to promote the lie now, he is still doing it because he wants to stir up the base, he wants another Jan 6th. He would be very happy to see democracy replaced with an autocracy, with people like him in charge.

 

[Windwalker]

A lot of people would for $35 million a year.

Sure, a lot of people would for a lot less too. I'm arguing that with that kind of salary, he has a lot more voice than someone who is just scraping by and can't afford to lose their job. He is a product that Fox sells to make money, and if he were to say, "Fire me then", they would have to think hard about that, especially if they all refused en masse. What are they going to do? Not going on air?

And if they did fire him, I'm quite certain he could find other gainful employment with a name like his, or just find another line of work that doesn't require him to live unethically.

In my view nobody ever really gets away with any of that, so taking it upon ourselves to judge him is redundant.

I do agree with this, that, to borrow the phrase, "your sin will find you out", or that law of karma or reaping what you sow. But I don't see pointing out what they are doing as judging them in that same sense. He will reap what he has sown, just like all of us do, these things eventually catch up with us.

However to see what he is doing and pointing it out, is a cautionary thing for any of us, who choose such a path for ourselves. People write children's stories about how the mighty fall, based upon real-life examples. "And great woe fell upon Hannity the Weak", might read one such children's tale in the future.

There are different levels of morality just like there are different levels of courage, and in his place I think refusing to go along with it would have taken more of each then most of us have at our disposal.

"With great power, comes great responsibility". "To whom much is given, much is required". If I have a position of power like him to influence others lives, with it comes a great deal of responsibility I need to take upon myself as a moral agent.

Once upon a time, I was going into the ministry and had graduated Bible college with a degree in theology towards that end. And like Hannity the Weak, I too realized that the things I had learned were not something I believed were true any more.

But unlike him, rather than selling my soul and preaching it to others anyway, using my gifts and talents to persuade others to believe in something I did not believe in myself, I took the moral action and wrote my pastor a very lengthy letter explaining why I could not in good conscious stay with the church. I chose another path for my life, rather than selling my soul to be insincere with others for the sake of gain.

Of course we don't know all the circumstances.

What we do know that we didn't know before is (like I say):

1. Tucker Carlson is willing to put up at least some opposition when asked to perpetuate outright fraud.

2. He seems to have some genuine concern for his audience and awareness when it comes to his responsibilities towards them.

None of this excuses what he did, but it does make me look at the man differently.

Whether or not he followed his conscience at least we know now that he has one.

Well yes, as I said, it does the heart good to know that at least somewhere beyond that mask, there is a reasoning mind that knows the difference between fact and fiction. I'm with you on that. It does make me look at him differently. But then that also raised the bar as well, that he knew better and yet chose a path that led to great harm to others and this country as a result.

I hope for him that somewhere in there, he will make some level of atonement for his actions. We all error, but we don't get a pass on being responsible for them.

 

[Quagmire]

Cucker was born into an extremely wealthy family, he never had to work a day in his life if he didn’t want to.

In any case, he seems to have been (at least privately) opposed to going along with the whole election fraud scenario from the beginning:

“We worked really hard to build what we have. Those ****ers [at the decision desk] are destroying our credibility. It enrages me,” Fox News host Tucker Carlson wrote to his producer on November 5. He went on to say that what Trump is good at is “destroying things,” adding, “He could easily destroy us if we play it wrong."
A juicy new legal filing reveals who really controls Fox News

This was during the 2020 election. A cpl days later:

And:
"On November 7, Carlson again wrote to his producer when Fox called Biden as the winner nationally (this time, alongside the other major networks). “Do the executives understand how much credibility and trust we’ve lost with our audience? We’re playing with fire, for real,” he wrote".

I don’t have respect for millionaires who lie to make a few more million.

I think it's pretty obvious that there was more than money at stake for him here.

If he took a principled stand he might have lost his job, but he would have gotten another one (if he wanted), or he could have retired to one of his multiple mansions and lived in luxury.

He is probably more interested in keeping the Republican tax cuts for millionaires than he is his salary from Faux Noise.

But worst of all, he is still doing it.

He doesn’t need to promote the lie now, he is still doing it because he wants to stir up the base, he wants another Jan 6th. He would be very happy to see democracy replaced with an autocracy, with people like him in charge.

That's an awful lot of speculation. It doesn't really shed light on anything.

 

[fantome profane]

That's an awful lot of speculation. It doesn't really shed light on anything.

Perhaps, but with respect I think you are reading a awful lot into a few off the record comments. I don’t think those comments indicate any principles or morals on his part, I think those comments indicate he thought things were going to go badly for him, the network, and the white suprematist movement.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sure, a lot of people would for a lot less too. I'm arguing that with that kind of salary, he has a lot more voice than someone who is just scraping by and can't afford to lose their job. He is a product that Fox sells to make money, and if he were to say, "Fire me then", they would have to think hard about that, especially if they all refused en masse. What are they going to do? Not going on air?

And if they did fire him, I'm quite certain he could find other gainful employment with a name like his, or just find another line of work that doesn't require him to live unethically.


I do agree with this, that, to borrow the phrase, "your sin will find you out", or that law of karma or reaping what you sow. But I don't see pointing out what they are doing as judging them in that same sense. He will reap what he has sown, just like all of us do, these things eventually catch up with us.

However to see what he is doing and pointing it out, is a cautionary thing for any of us, who choose such a path for ourselves. People write children's stories about how the mighty fall, based upon real-life examples. "And great woe fell upon Hannity the Weak", might read one such children's tale in the future.


"With great power, comes great responsibility". "To whom much is given, much is required". If I have a position of power like him to influence others lives, with it comes a great deal of responsibility I need to take upon myself as a moral agent.

Once upon a time, I was going into the ministry and had graduated Bible college with a degree in theology towards that end. And like Hannity the Weak, I too realized that the things I had learned were not something I believed were true any more.

But unlike him, rather than selling my soul and preaching it to others anyway, using my gifts and talents to persuade others to believe in something I did not believe in myself, I took the moral action and wrote my pastor a very lengthy letter explaining why I could not in good conscious stay with the church. I chose another path for my life, rather than selling my soul to be insincere with others for the sake of gain.


Well yes, as I said, it does the heart good to know that at least somewhere beyond that mask, there is a reasoning mind that knows the difference between fact and fiction. I'm with you on that. It does make me look at him differently. But then that also raised the bar as well, that he knew better and yet chose a path that led to great harm to others and this country as a result.

I hope for him that somewhere in there, he will make some level of atonement for his actions. We all error, but we don't get a pass on being responsible for them.

Shepard Smith seems to have done okay. He was the top news anchor at FOX. He was the last reason that I watched the FOX at times. More than once he corrected Hannity. He was a newsman, not a commentator, but eventually he could not take the dishonesty any longer and quit mid contract. He had to wait about a year before he could work again. That often happens when one has that sort of contract.

 

[Quagmire]

Perhaps, but with respect I think you are reading a awful lot into a few off the record comments. I don’t think those comments indicate any principles or morals on his part, I think those comments indicate he thought things were going to go badly for him, the network, and the white suprematist movement.

Could be. But I keep going back to this: "if you don't have evidence of fraud at this scale it's a cruel and reckless thing to keep saying".

And I'm wondering whose sensibilities he was looking out for.

It could well be that he was just talking about himself and his croonies, and how it would be cruel to play with their hopes and expectations, but it could just as well be that he was looking out for his audience.

Edit: which in my opinion is admirable even if you don't think much of him or his audience.

 

[fantome profane]

Could be. But I keep going back to this: "if you don't have evidence of fraud at this scale it's a cruel and reckless thing to keep saying".

And yet he still said it, he is still saying it. He knows there is no evidence, he knows it is cruel and reckless, he knows the violence that can result from saying this. And he still says it!

This only makes his actions more despicable. If he didn’t know, if he didn’t understand, if he was speaking from ignorance, that would be forgivable. But he knows.

 

[Quagmire]

Sure, a lot of people would for a lot less too. I'm arguing that with that kind of salary, he has a lot more voice than someone who is just scraping by and can't afford to lose their job. He is a product that Fox sells to make money, and if he were to say, "Fire me then", they would have to think hard about that, especially if they all refused en masse. What are they going to do? Not going on air?

And if they did fire him, I'm quite certain he could find other gainful employment with a name like his, or just find another line of work that doesn't require him to live unethically.


I do agree with this, that, to borrow the phrase, "your sin will find you out", or that law of karma or reaping what you sow. But I don't see pointing out what they are doing as judging them in that same sense. He will reap what he has sown, just like all of us do, these things eventually catch up with us.

However to see what he is doing and pointing it out, is a cautionary thing for any of us, who choose such a path for ourselves. People write children's stories about how the mighty fall, based upon real-life examples. "And great woe fell upon Hannity the Weak", might read one such children's tale in the future.


"With great power, comes great responsibility". "To whom much is given, much is required". If I have a position of power like him to influence others lives, with it comes a great deal of responsibility I need to take upon myself as a moral agent.

Once upon a time, I was going into the ministry and had graduated Bible college with a degree in theology towards that end. And like Hannity the Weak, I too realized that the things I had learned were not something I believed were true any more.

But unlike him, rather than selling my soul and preaching it to others anyway, using my gifts and talents to persuade others to believe in something I did not believe in myself, I took the moral action and wrote my pastor a very lengthy letter explaining why I could not in good conscious stay with the church. I chose another path for my life, rather than selling my soul to be insincere with others for the sake of gain.


Well yes, as I said, it does the heart good to know that at least somewhere beyond that mask, there is a reasoning mind that knows the difference between fact and fiction. I'm with you on that. It does make me look at him differently. But then that also raised the bar as well, that he knew better and yet chose a path that led to great harm to others and this country as a result.

I hope for him that somewhere in there, he will make some level of atonement for his actions. We all error, but we don't get a pass on being responsible for them.

(emphasis mine)

And yet he still said it, he is still saying it. He knows there is no evidence, he knows it is cruel and reckless, he knows the violence that can result from saying this. And he still says it!

This only makes his actions more despicable. If he didn’t know, if he didn’t understand, if he was speaking from ignorance, that would be forgivable. But he knows.

I think the problem here is that some of the people in this conversation seem to think that what we're debating is whether or not he should be "forgiven".

I'm going to leave that one alone.

Edit: @Windwalker @fantome profane or if I got that wrong, please feel free to clarify.

 

[PureX]

Really?

Who are the others?

Well, there are those dead capital police officers, for one. Killed in an attempted coup against the government of the United States, which offends us all. There were and are the attempts at denying many citizens their right to vote. And the attempts at rigging the voting system to the point that it would become pointless theatrics. Not to mention that they were and are constantly and blatantly slandering the democratic party and their candidates and politicians. As well as millions of democratic citizens.

You may not be offended by any of this but a whole lot of other people are. Lives are being ruined by this kind of constant and blatant lying. People are going to jail because they believed those lies, and thought they were saving America. People are being killed by lunatic gunman because they think they are saving America from evil liberals and democrats. The planet is being poisoned in part because all this constant lying has convinced many people that it's not happening.

Gandhi once said that "lying is the mother of all violence", and he was right. Because the lies are how we tell ourselves it's OK do harm to other people, and to the planet. That those people "deserve it". That they brought it on themselves. And so we are the righteous ones, justified in whatever we do.

 

[Heyo]

And yet he still said it, he is still saying it. He knows there is no evidence, he knows it is cruel and reckless, he knows the violence that can result from saying this. And he still says it!

Maybe his bosses put it as a challenge to him? Carlson is a master spin doctor. He can turn any story on it's head and sell it with confidence.