Free Iran from the Islamic Republic!

[muhammad_isa]

Hmmm. I think the word "Islamist" is commonly understood to mean any Muslim who thinks the place they live should use Sharia. Using that definition, I think many Muslims are happy to live in secular countries, and those are NOT Islamists.

A writer for the International Crisis Group maintains that "the conception of 'political Islam'" is a creation of Americans to explain the Iranian Islamic Revolution, ignoring the fact that (according to the writer) Islam is by definition political. In fact it is quietist/non-political Islam, not Islamism, that requires explanation, which the author gives—calling it an historical fluke of the "short-lived era of the heyday of secular Arab nationalism between 1945 and 1970"
Islamism - wiki

In other words, it is a natural phenomena that has more to do with the rise and fall
of empires, than anything else.
The Middle East is in turmoil, but it is not the fault of 'Islamists' .. the west likes to
constantly interfere, believing that it is their business .. why?
On the pretext that they will explode nuclear bombs over the US and Europe?

The only nation that I'm aware of that has attacked others with nuclear bombs is the US

 

[icehorse]

A writer for the International Crisis Group maintains that "the conception of 'political Islam'" is a creation of Americans to explain the Iranian Islamic Revolution, ignoring the fact that (according to the writer) Islam is by definition political. In fact it is quietist/non-political Islam, not Islamism, that requires explanation, which the author gives—calling it an historical fluke of the "short-lived era of the heyday of secular Arab nationalism between 1945 and 1970"
Islamism - wiki

In other words, it is a natural phenomena that has more to do with the rise and fall
of empires, than anything else.
The Middle East is in turmoil, but it is not the fault of 'Islamists' .. the west likes to
constantly interfere, believing that it is their business .. why?
On the pretext that they will explode nuclear bombs over the US and Europe?

The only nation that I'm aware of that has attacked others with nuclear bombs is the US

Well hundreds of millions of Muslims around the world disagree with your article above.

For 1400 years, some Muslims have acted on the belief that they should spread Sharia - often by force - throughout the entire world. And hundreds of millions of Muslims from all over the world want to live under Sharia. This is also true of a large percentage of Muslims who have immigrated to Europe.

The article below details support for Sharia around the world:

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society

And here's another article that discusses support for Sharia in the UK.

Over 40% of UK Muslims support “aspects” of sharia law

Many more articles can easily be found. Several posts ago you admitted that you didn't really understand the term "Islamism". Fair enough, but I would encourage you to do more than a few minutes of research on the topic.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Well hundreds of millions of Muslims around the world disagree with your article above.

..so you're claiming that the wiki article is inaccurate?

The article below details support for Sharia around the world:

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society

And here's another article that discusses support for Sharia in the UK.

Over 40% of UK Muslims support “aspects” of sharia law

So what?
Why is your system of govt. superior to others?

What gives you the right to enforce your system onto other people?

You may play your propaganda games, but even in your own nation, people
are questioning the integrity of elections.
Furthermore, propaganda machines (controlled media) are designed to hoodwink the people.

Several posts ago you admitted that you didn't really understand the term "Islamism".

All "isms" are man-made .. and in this case it is a false concept.
Muslims are political by nature .. just as you are in opposition to them.

 

[icehorse]

Why is your system of govt. superior to others?

Secularism has it's problems no doubt, but it's the best system humans have created so far. One piece of evidence for that claim is that across the world we see tens of millions of people escaping theocracies and fleeing towards secular states. If theocracies are so awesome why is everyone in such a rush to leave them? (Oh wait I know, you're going to say that Islam would be fantastic IF ONLY the west didn't mess things up. )

What gives you the right to enforce your system onto other people?

Historically we've ALL been colonizers at some point. But here and now - and in this thread - we're talking about what the Iranian people want for themselves. And they do NOT want to be ruled by Islamists.

Furthermore, propaganda machines (controlled media) are designed to hoodwink the people.

On this point we are agreed But we ALL are blasted by propaganda all the time. We ALL have to watch out for propaganda. So how do we defend ourselves? Logic and evidence. As I said, this thread is about what the Iranian people want for themselves. And we know it's true because we see the recurring evidence of it in the form of all of their protests. Protests that are quite dangerous for them to hold.

All "isms" are man-made .. and in this case it is a false concept.
Muslims are political by nature .. just as you are in opposition to them.

Glad to hear you admit it. And yes, I am in opposition to Sharia.

 

[Godobeyer]

Hmmm. I think the word "Islamist" is commonly understood to mean any Muslim who thinks the place they live should use Sharia. Using that definition, I think many Muslims are happy to live in secular countries, and those are NOT Islamists.

You think Muslims are happy to live in secular countries ?
I believe you wrong.
We don't want live extremist and same time we don't prefer live in way against our religion rules , like LGBT ,and nudes .

 

[Revoltingest]

You think Muslims are happy to live in secular countries ?
I believe you wrong.
We don't want live extremist and same time we don't prefer live in way against our religion rules , like LGBT ,and nudes .

I've known many Muslims happy to live here.
This includes some family.
They preferred the troubling side of living here
to the more troubling side of living elsewhere.

 

[icehorse]

You think Muslims are happy to live in secular countries ?
I believe you wrong.
We don't want live extremist and same time we don't prefer live in way against our religion rules , like LGBT ,and nudes .

I'm making a broad statistical claim. Again the claim is that tens of millions of Muslims flee Islamic theocracies. Why do they do that if they don't think life would be way better for them in a secular country?

 

[Godobeyer]

I've known many Muslims happy to live here.
This includes some family.
They preferred the troubling side of living here
to the more troubling side of living elsewhere.

In general Muslims don't have problem to live with non-Muslims , some are decline in some Islam orders, link drinking and girls ...etc
but general Muslms communty don't drink ,girls ,don't accept LBGPT and other things. invidual cross the limites find anyway.
It's about control self desires.

 

[Godobeyer]

I'm making a broad statistical claim. Again the claim is that tens of millions of Muslims flee Islamic theocracies. Why do they do that if they don't think life would be way better for them in a secular country?

secular like , allow adultery and strips and LGBPT ,and freedom of speech to insult/Mock God and Muhammad and prophets ?

 

[Godobeyer]

@icehorse you have the right to criticise our way of life , but don't inhuman us, justify to Israel to do what it want in religion because Israel you believe that it's better regime,(which proven is evil/racist regime)
humanity should be first , damn to the democracy/secular which slaught innocents in Palestine and Lebanon .

 

[icehorse]

secular like , allow adultery and strips and LGBPT ,and freedom of speech to insult/Mock God and Muhammad and prophets ?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Western secularism is far from perfect, and I've criticized it often on this forum.

But IMO it's far better than Islamic theocracies, and the evidence I have to support my claim is that tens of millions of Muslims risk life and limb to leave Islamic theocracies, and almost no one tries to move TO a theocracy.

And by all means, if you prefer living in an Islamic theocracy, that's great. But if you try to export that idea to secular society you should expect a lot of resistance, and cries of "Islamophobia" won't help you.

 

[icehorse]

@icehorse you have the right to criticise our way of life , but don't inhuman us, justify to Israel to do what it want in religion because Israel you believe that it's better regime,(which proven is evil/racist regime)
humanity should be first , damn to the democracy/secular which slaught innocents in Palestine and Lebanon .

Once again, when it comes to Gaza, I harshly criticize Hamas. Hamas is a self-proclaimed terrorist organization.

I will say this again, I do not dehumanize anyone. But I am very critical of Islamists and of course terrorists.

 

[Godobeyer]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Western secularism is far from perfect, and I've criticized it often on this forum.

But IMO it's far better than Islamic theocracies, and the evidence I have to support my claim is that tens of millions of Muslims risk life and limb to leave Islamic theocracies, and almost no one tries to move TO a theocracy.

Immigration from ME ,in general because wars caused by USA and Israel.

in North Africa in general cos provertiy ,not because secular or freedom.

And by all means, if you prefer living in an Islamic theocracy, that's great. But if you try to export that idea to secular society you should expect a lot of resistance, and cries of "Islamophobia" won't help you.

lot of resistance !!! is not freedom ? or your freedom against Muslims ?
I remember Trump comment on this

 

[Godobeyer]

Once again, when it comes to Gaza, I harshly criticize Hamas. Hamas is a self-proclaimed terrorist organization.

I will say this again, I do not dehumanize anyone. But I am very critical of Islamists and of course terrorists.

IF about killing innocents rate you should call IDF terrorists too,or Palestinians don't have any values ?
but unforunetly double standard always actived.

 

[icehorse]

Immigration from ME ,in general because wars caused by USA and Israel.

There is a pattern here. I have said several times now that the west is far from perfect. But the pattern here is that people defending Islam NEVER admit that Islam might have some issues. It's always someone else's fault, sigh.

So what do you knwo about the Muslim brotherhood? It's much older than the horrible USA wars you're mentioning.

lot of resistance !!! is not freedom ? or your freedom against Muslims ?

No country has an obligation to accept immigrants. Countries accept immigrants if they think the immigrants will help the country succeed. And it's always been the case that many people who want to immigrate are denied.

And all kinds of people are denied immigration, not just Muslims. AND, many Muslims are allowed to immigrate, even to Israel!

IF about killing innocents rate you should call IDF terrorists too,or Palestinians don't have any values ?
but unforunetly double standard always actived.

War sucks. civilians ALWAYS get killed in wars. And we should minimize civilians getting killed during wartime. But Israel did not start this war, Hamas did.

 

[Godobeyer]

here is a pattern here. I have said several times now that the west is far from perfect. But the pattern here is that people defending Islam NEVER admit that Islam might have some issues. It's always someone else's fault, sigh.

So what do you knwo about the Muslim brotherhood? It's much older than the horrible USA wars you're mentioning.

Islam don't have problem issues,some muslims does.

No country has an obligation to accept immigrants. Countries accept immigrants if they think the immigrants will help the country succeed. And it's always been the case that many people who want to immigrate are denied.

And all kinds of people are denied immigration, not just Muslims. AND, many Muslims are allowed to immigrate, even to Israel!

As I understand, when muslims came to West, must leave their religion first.

War sucks. civilians ALWAYS get killed in wars. And we should minimize civilians getting killed during wartime. But Israel did not start this war, Hamas did.

We are in disagreement who started,because Israel which besieged for 14 years Gaza and occupation WB.


i was talk about killing innocents.
If you consider Hamas is terrorist organization because they did crimes, you should consider IDF as terrorist army because they did thousands massarces against Palestinians.
I won't beg to disable double standard, i know how much West media influence.

 

[icehorse]

Islam don't have problem issues,some muslims does.

As predicted

As I understand, when muslims came to West, must leave their religion first.

Nope.

We are in disagreement who started,because Israel which besieged for 14 years Gaza and occupation WB.


i was talk about killing innocents.
If you consider Hamas is terrorist organization because they did crimes, you should consider IDF as terrorist army because they did thousands massarces against Palestinians.
I won't beg to disable double standard, i know how much West media influence.

After Israel gave Gaza to Palestinians, there was no blockade UNTIL Palestinians voted terrorists to rule them. And why does Egypt also block Gazans? Is that somehow Israels fault?

Yes, killing innocents / civilians, it's horrible, but it always happens in every war. Over the last 1400 years Muslims have started hundreds of violent battles against non-Muslims and they have started many wars. In all of these cases, innocents / civilians have been killed. Why is this war any different in your mind?

 

[Godobeyer]

After Israel gave Gaza to Palestinians, there was no blockade UNTIL Palestinians voted terrorists to rule them. And why does Egypt also block Gazans? Is that somehow Israels fault?

Yes, killing innocents / civilians, it's horrible, but it always happens in every war. Over the last 1400 years Muslims have started hundreds of violent battles against non-Muslims and they have started many wars. In all of these cases, innocents / civilians have been killed. Why is this war any different in your mind?

Its seems you try hard to avoid my direct simple question.

Why you consider Hamas as terrorist organization,don't consider Israel as terrorist regime ?
If about killing innocents, israel is the top.
If about taken others land israel is top too.

So because Palestinians vote Gaza.
It's ok to kill Palestinians.

So if i take your opinion match it with Israel, so Israeli chose racist criminal regime, so its ok to kill civilians of Israel?

 

[icehorse]

Its seems you try hard to avoid my direct simple question.

Why you consider Hamas as terrorist organization,don't consider Israel as terrorist regime ?
If about killing innocents, israel is the top.
If about taken others land israel is top too.

So because Palestinians vote Gaza.
It's ok to kill Palestinians.

So if i take your opinion match it with Israel, so Israeli chose racist criminal regime, so its ok to kill civilians of Israel?

I do not consider Israel to be terrorists.

I believe Israel is fighting a war against terrorists who have said publicly that they are happy for "their own people to die" and become martyrs. Hamas is not protecting Gazans, Hamas is deliberately using Gazans as cannon fodder.

 

[Godobeyer]

I do not consider Israel to be terrorists.

I believe Israel is fighting a war against terrorists who have said publicly that they are happy for "their own people to die" and become martyrs. Hamas is not protecting Gazans, Hamas is deliberately using Gazans as cannon fodder.

Everyone defend for his land and freedom called terrorist by West, if they were against their benefits.

if hamas is terrorist organization,because they commit some crimes, so in human sense and fairness you should called Israel as terrorist state, whatever you are free in your opinion.

It's happen only if miracle happen, disabled double standard.