Free Speech in the U.S. and Gaza/Israel

[Left Coast]

It depends on which view. We can disagree about anything, that's fine. But if you insist on labeling any criticism of Israel as anti-semitic, I'm going to say that's bigoted.

But I've never said that. I've now explicitly said the opposite. Do you think I'm lying? Or can you admit I might disagree with you about what we're talking about without being motivated by bigotry? This ought to be real simple. I shouldn't need to drag basic respect out of you.

 

[Orbit]

But I've never said that. I've now explicitly said the opposite. Do you think I'm lying? Or can you admit I might disagree with you about what we're talking about without being motivated by bigotry? This ought to be real simple. I shouldn't need to drag basic respect out of you.

I said we could disagree about anything, that's fine. What's disrespectful about that?

 

[Left Coast]

I said we could disagree about anything, that's fine. What's disrespectful about that?

You won't grant the benefit of the doubt that I'm not motivated by bigotry in my disagreements with you. And you're evading the direct question. That's what's disrespectful about it.

So again I ask: are you capable of granting me the benefit of the doubt that my criticisms of your view aren't motivated by bigotry? Yes or no? This is really easy. "Of course you can disagree with me and not be a bigot. Obviously." That simple. Can you?

 

[Orbit]

You won't grant the benefit of the doubt that I'm not motivated by bigotry in my disagreements with you. And you're evading the direct question. That's what's disrespectful about it.

So again I ask: are you capable of granting me the benefit of the doubt that my criticisms of your view aren't motivated by bigotry? Yes or no? This is really easy. "Of course you can disagree with me and not be a bigot. Obviously." That simple. Can you?

How am I evading a direct question? You asked if we could disagree, and I said "Yes, we can disagree about anything, that's fine."

It looks like you need me to say the exact words that you want to hear, which seems silly given that my meaning was pretty clear, but whatever. Yes, we can disagree. Your motivations are your own. You can have the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Left Coast]

How am I evading a direct question? You asked if we could disagree, and I said "Yes, we can disagree about anything, that's fine."

It looks like you need me to say the exact words that you want to hear, which seems silly given that my meaning was pretty clear, but whatever. Yes, we can disagree. Your motivations are your own. You can have the benefit of the doubt.

Thank you for...kinda?...acknowledging I'm not a bigot. It's a start.

 

[Revoltingest]

It depends on which view. We can disagree about anything, that's fine. But if you insist on labeling any criticism of Israel as anti-semitic, I'm going to say that's bigoted.

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/us-student-suspended-for-saying--free-palestine

Republicans change tune on free speech over pro-Palestinian rallies at colleges

Conservatives, who often tout their support for so-called free speech absolutists, are demanding strict punishment for students critical of Israel's government.

www.msnbc.com

Pro-Palestine student group, ACLU sues University of Florida system, DeSantis

A pro-Palestine student group and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) announced Thursday they are suing the University of Florida system and Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) for trying to deactivate the group and violating students’ free speech rights. “Our client, the University of Florida...

news.yahoo.com

Why We Must Reject Efforts to Restrict Constitutionally Protected Speech on College Campuses

David Cole, ACLU Legal Director The devastating conflict in Israel and Palestine has roiled campuses here at home. College students across the country are exercising their constitutional right to free speech by organizing, protesting, posting, and debating, sometimes resulting in speech that is...

www.aclu-or.org

Former President Donald Trump, for instance, proposed banning pro-Palestinian activists — whom he labeled “antisemitic” and “anti-American” — from universities in the U.S. And many of his fellow Republican presidential candidates have shared similar views.

Sen. Tim Scott, R-S.C., suggested foreign national students on visas should be "sent back to their country" if they protest against the Israeli government. (FYI: There are people in Israel pushing back against their government amid the war, as well.)

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis’ office recently came out in support of a local lawmaker’s push to expel students — and strip schools’ funding — over campus demonstrations the lawmaker, state Rep. Randy Fine, dubiously described as “justify[ing] the killing of Jews.” DeSantis has shown a willingness to conflate Palestinians with antisemitism, recently claiming that “all” Palestinian refugees from Gaza are antisemitic.

Though GOP presidential candidate Vivek Ramaswamy disagrees with some of his fellow conservatives about the blacklisting calls, one of his wealthy supporters, Bill Ackman, supports such an action. Ackman has called for members of Harvard University student groups that signed a pro-Palestinian letter to be publicly named and blacklisted. The letter, posted on Oct. 7, said Israel was “entirely responsible for all the unfolding violence” and was signed by more than 30 Harvard student groups.

Sen. Tom Cotton, R-Ark., recently urged the Biden administration to deport foreign nationals who signed or “shared approvingly” the letter.

And Sen. Marsha Blackburn, R-Tenn., told Fox News this week that she agrees with Cotton’s deportation push. She said she's co-sponsoring a bill Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., said he will introduce that would require the deportation of foreign nationals who participate in "pro-Hamas" demonstrations.

And at least one House Republican has joined in this ideological crusade. Rep. Jason Smith of Missouri, who chairs the finance-focused Ways and Means Committee, told Fox News on Wednesday that his committee might seek to strip some universities of their ax-exempt statuses over some students' anti-Israel statements.

It's fascinating that so many of RF liberals
are siding with Trump by branding critics of
Israel's war crimes as "anti-semitic".
It seems they drift into MAGA territory.

 

[Orbit]

It's fascinating that so many of RF liberals
are siding with Trump by branding critics of
Israel's war crimes as "anti-semitic".
It seems they drift into MAGA territory.

Actually I did a little looking into the definition of "anti-semitic". It has been twisted in some cases into a self-serving barrier against criticism of Israel and its policies.

Here is the "working definition": “Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

Underneath that, there is a very ironic "example" of anti-semitism: "Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel".

The reason I think that is ironic is that Israel seems to be holding the Palestinians collectively responsible for the actions of Hamas.

Source: What is antisemitism?

That definition is also used by the U.S. State Department:

Defining Antisemitism - United States Department of State

The Department of State has used a working definition, along with examples, of antisemitism since 2010. On May 26, 2016, the 31 member states of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA), of which the United States is a member, adopted a non-legally binding “working definition” of...

www.state.gov

Following links on search pages led me to this:

"There are some who feel that pro-Israel activism on college campuses can cross the line from advocacy to outright intimidation. One highly publicized accusation comes from former US President Jimmy Carter, who complained of great difficulty in gaining access to a number of universities to discuss his new book Palestine Peace Not Apartheid which criticized certain Israeli policies."

This is described here: Israel lobby in the United States - Wikipedia

About the activities of the Israel Lobby on U.S. campuses:

"Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of organizations that focus on what could be called "pro-Israel activism" on college campuses. With the outbreak of the Al-Aqsa Intifada in 2001, these groups became increasingly visible. In 2002 an umbrella organization that includes many of these groups, known as the Israel on Campus Coalition, was formed as a result of what they felt were "the worrisome rise in anti-Israel activities on college campuses across North America". The stated mission of the Israel on Campus Coalition is to "foster support for Israel" and "cultivate an Israel friendly university environment".[68] Members of the Israel on Campus Coalition include the Zionist Organization of America, AIPAC, Americans for Peace Now, the Anti-Defamation League, Kesher, the Union of Progressive Zionists (Ameinu and Meretz USA/Partners for Progressive Israel). Although these groups are largely united in their support of Israel, there was a major internal conflict in 2007 when the right-wing Zionist Organization of America unsuccessfully attempted to remove the left-wing Union of Progressive Zionists from the coalition after the latter group sponsored lectures by a group of former Israel Defense Forces soldiers who criticized the Israeli Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.[69]"

On the Israel Campus Coalition (ICC), part of the Israel Lobby:

"In November 2018, undercover footage from the censored Al Jazeera Documentary “The Lobby USA” revealed extensive conversations between ICC executives and Al Jazeera's undercover reporter.[6] An ICC executive admits the organization “coordinates” and “communicates” with Israel's Ministry of Strategic Affairs.[7][8][9] The footage also revealed the ICC includes the Ministry of Strategic Affairs on the organizations “operations and intelligence brief.” Despite the admission that Israel on Campus Coalition coordinates with the Ministry of Strategic Affairs, an Israeli government ministry, records show the ICC is not registered under the Foreign Agent Registration Act.[10][11]"

This mirrors the information in the Nation article that I posted in the OP, that was called "anti-semitic" and described as a poor source by one poster, despite the fact that the author is a recipient of journalism awards. What I find are facts, all over the place, describing a foreign government interfering with free speech on American campuses by subtly and overtly discouraging criticism of the Israeli government in American universities. Maybe I'm a little too American for my own good, but the free exchange of ideas, whether or not I agree with them, is important in the university. Scholarly (and student) dialogue shouldn't be squelched or manipulated by what are essentially paid lobbyists for a foreign government.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Facts that you don't like are anti-semitic?

No, but your penchant for distorting my position could well be.

 

[Revoltingest]

Actually I did a little looking into the definition of "anti-semitic". It has been twisted in some cases into a self-serving barrier against criticism of Israel and its policies.

It's been thus for as long as I can
remember discussion such issues.

Here is the "working definition": “Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

Underneath that, there is a very ironic "example" of anti-semitism: "Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel".

The reason I think that is ironic is that Israel seems to be holding the Palestinians collectively responsible for the actions of Hamas.

A double standard?
I am shocked, I tell you...shocked!

Source: What is antisemitism?

That definition is also used by the U.S. State Department:

Defining Antisemitism - United States Department of State

The Department of State has used a working definition, along with examples, of antisemitism since 2010. On May 26, 2016, the 31 member states of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA), of which the United States is a member, adopted a non-legally binding “working definition” of...

www.state.gov

Following links on search pages led me to this:

"There are some who feel that pro-Israel activism on college campuses can cross the line from advocacy to outright intimidation. One highly publicized accusation comes from former US President Jimmy Carter, who complained of great difficulty in gaining access to a number of universities to discuss his new book Palestine Peace Not Apartheid which criticized certain Israeli policies."

This is described here: Israel lobby in the United States - Wikipedia

About the activities of the Israel Lobby on U.S. campuses:

"Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of organizations that focus on what could be called "pro-Israel activism" on college campuses. With the outbreak of the Al-Aqsa Intifada in 2001, these groups became increasingly visible. In 2002 an umbrella organization that includes many of these groups, known as the Israel on Campus Coalition, was formed as a result of what they felt were "the worrisome rise in anti-Israel activities on college campuses across North America". The stated mission of the Israel on Campus Coalition is to "foster support for Israel" and "cultivate an Israel friendly university environment".[68] Members of the Israel on Campus Coalition include the Zionist Organization of America, AIPAC, Americans for Peace Now, the Anti-Defamation League, Kesher, the Union of Progressive Zionists (Ameinu and Meretz USA/Partners for Progressive Israel). Although these groups are largely united in their support of Israel, there was a major internal conflict in 2007 when the right-wing Zionist Organization of America unsuccessfully attempted to remove the left-wing Union of Progressive Zionists from the coalition after the latter group sponsored lectures by a group of former Israel Defense Forces soldiers who criticized the Israeli Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.[69]"

On the Israel Campus Coalition (ICC), part of the Israel Lobby:

"In November 2018, undercover footage from the censored Al Jazeera Documentary “The Lobby USA” revealed extensive conversations between ICC executives and Al Jazeera's undercover reporter.[6] An ICC executive admits the organization “coordinates” and “communicates” with Israel's Ministry of Strategic Affairs.[7][8][9] The footage also revealed the ICC includes the Ministry of Strategic Affairs on the organizations “operations and intelligence brief.” Despite the admission that Israel on Campus Coalition coordinates with the Ministry of Strategic Affairs, an Israeli government ministry, records show the ICC is not registered under the Foreign Agent Registration Act.[10][11]"

This mirrors the information in the Nation article that I posted in the OP, that was called "anti-semitic" and described as a poor source by one poster, despite the fact that the author is a recipient of journalism awards. What I find are facts, all over the place, describing a foreign government interfering with free speech on American campuses by subtly and overtly discouraging criticism of the Israeli government in American universities. Maybe I'm a little too American for my own good, but the free exchange of ideas, whether or not I agree with them, is important in the university. Scholarly (and student) dialogue shouldn't be squelched or manipulated by what are essentially paid lobbyists for a foreign government.

Interesting details about Israel's
censorship campaign in USA.

 

[Orbit]

No, but your penchant for distorting my position could well be.

As far as I can tell your "position" is insulting people through cryptic statements.

 

[idea]

At my school, the holocaust class was canceled, the majority favors hamas. Jews are minority in most cities.

Hamas aside, treatment of women - shrouded in black, disrespect for any female in leadership positions is quite sad to me.

Jews and Muslims both seemed trapped in groupthink mindsets, trauma response, cognitive dissonance - it takes two to tango. The Muslims scare me more when I see the facial expressions, attitudes, violent mibdsets... at least in my location. As a female, I feel threat from Muslims more.

 

[Orbit]

At my school, the holocaust class was canceled, the majority favors hamas. Jews are minority in most cities.

Hamas aside, treatment of women - shrouded in black, disrespect for any female in leadership positions is quite sad to me.

Jews and Muslims both seemed trapped in groupthink mindsets, trauma response, cognitive dissonance - it takes two to tango. The Muslims scare me more when I see the facial expressions, attitudes.

The majority favors Hamas? Color me skeptical.

 

[idea]

The majority favors Hamas? Color me skeptical.

We've had Thanksgiving/international celebration events this week, people dressed in international clothing, world tables food sampling, talks etc. Palestinians were represented, no Israeli table etc.

In the US there are far more Muslims than Jews.

 

[Orbit]

We've had Thanksgiving/international celebration events this week, people dressed in international clothing, world tables food sampling, talks etc. Palestinians were represented, no Israeli table etc.

In the US there are far more Muslims than Jews.

Jews make up 2.4% of the U.S. population. Muslims make up 1%.

Jews make up 2.4% of the U.S. adult population

www.pewresearch.org

New estimates show U.S. Muslim population continues to grow

An estimated 3.45 million Muslims of all ages were living in the United States in 2017, accounting for about 1.1% of the country's total population.

www.pewresearch.org

 

[Revoltingest]

Jews make up 2.4% of the U.S. population. Muslims make up 1%.

Jews make up 2.4% of the U.S. adult population

www.pewresearch.org

New estimates show U.S. Muslim population continues to grow

An estimated 3.45 million Muslims of all ages were living in the United States in 2017, accounting for about 1.1% of the country's total population.

www.pewresearch.org

Moreover, Jews have far more power in government,
particularly because Christians favor them as "God's
Chosen People".

Faith on the Hill

When it comes to religious affiliation, the 117th U.S. Congress looks similar to the previous Congress but quite different from Americans overall.

www.pewresearch.org

Congress....
88.1% Christian
6.2% Jewish
0.6% Muslim

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As far as I can tell your "position" is insulting people through cryptic statements.

Cryptic? Let me clarify what I see.

I am very concerned by the current anti-free speech trend wherein anyone who criticizes Israel is vilified, fired, or doxxed; and where campuses are limiting or prohibiting student and faculty speech and censuring or disbanding student organizations that are critical of Israeli policies or actions. No one seems to mind speech or organizations that are critical of Palestine. It has produced a witch-hunt type atmosphere. [emphasis added - JS]

Presumably this was said with a straight face at a time of unprecedented threats against Jews on campus.

You are predictably selective with your both your facts and your vitriol.

 

[Orbit]

Cryptic? Let me clarify what I see.

Presumably this was said with a straight face at a time of unprecedented threats against Jews on campus.

You are predictably selective with your both your facts and your vitriol.

Vitriol? I see no vitriol. I am reacting to what is actually happening on U.S. college campuses. If the facts are “anti-Semitic” then I think you need to reevaluate the definition of the word.

 

[Revoltingest]

Cryptic? Let me clarify what I see.

Presumably this was said with a straight face at a time of unprecedented threats against Jews on campus.

You are predictably selective with your both your facts and your vitriol.

The highlighted was put forth as an impression, ie, "it seems".
It seems disingenuous of you to infer from such a statement
as though it were proffered as rigorous.
Her concern is valid, since criticizing Israel has long been
censored to some extent, including by Israeli operatives
working with Jewish groups in USA. Fortunately, things
are opening up for Palestinian advocates, & Israel's critics.
Still a long way to go, since government is still trying to
silence them.

 

[idea]

The majority favors Hamas? Color me skeptical.

In my area I see more support for Muslims.

The generational divide over Israel and Palestine is widening

A new poll shows young voters diverge sharply from older ones, creating a challenge for the Democratic Party.

www.politico.com

52%of 18-34 year olds favor supporting Palestinians, a majority.

 

[Orbit]

In my area I see more support for Muslims.

The generational divide over Israel and Palestine is widening

A new poll shows young voters diverge sharply from older ones, creating a challenge for the Democratic Party.

www.politico.com

52%of 18-34 year olds favor supporting Palestinians, a majority.

Palestinians are not the same as Hamas.