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Free Will and the Problem of Evil

J

James Humphreys

Member
Straw Dog said:
But most popular conceptions of deity tend to be like "square circles". They don't make sense really. I'm just working with what monotheists have given me. If the question is negated then we're pushed into a position of ignosticism (what do we even mean by God?)
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Perhaps our understanding of God isn't really completely correct. Perhaps many montheists (which I am) have to reconsider their beliefs.

For example, if God is all powerful, isn't he powerful enough to limit what he can know? Or conversely, if God is all-knowing, doesn't that limit God's power to not know something, if he so desires?

But it seems you believe that evil exists. Doesn't the existence of evil actually prove the existence of God? If God doesn't exist, then all things that are and all things that happen just are, they are neither good or evil. To determine if something is good or evil there has to be an absolute standard, and that absolute standard can only come from an absolute being that established the standard and the system of all things to begin with.
 
Chase200mph

Chase200mph

Member



21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Answer: Jesus said, you must sell everything and then follow me…Luke 18:22 AND Mathew 19:21….but you never heart that one in Church now do you.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"

Answer: and many claimed there are four legged spidders….

23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."
Answer: “Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell ...bible.cc/matthew/19-21.htm Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to .... Follow me - To follow Jesus then meant to be a personal attendant on his ... to his person, property, and estate, but he must love him, and do him good; .... Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven” It is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of “the” needle than it is for a rich man to enter into my father’s kingdom….I hereby question your conviction and your cut and pastes that substitute for a proper response.


Martin Luther figured the same maybe the Church of Rome was handing down a altered version of the Word of God, so he went to the original Greek and Hebrew and wrote it in the vernacular, still the method used today. Hebrew being written by Israelis and the Greek being written mostly by Martyrs who I struggle to find any kind of evil you can attribute to.

Answer: Justin Martyrs first act as a Christian historian was to point out that the story of Jesus was like the story of the son of Jupitor…..the evil being the plagiarism of another religion and creating Christianity.



The idea that Church support Nazism is flawed,

Answer: The idea that Nazism wasn’t a Church is flawed and the fact remains Adolf Hitler was a member of the Church in “GOOD” standing is all the support needed. The fact the Church that Hitler was doing the world a favor was well supported and I’ve heard these sentiments with my own ears supports the idea further not to mention the Nazi Church is still practicing today suggest what you see as being selective in the extreme….


Look into the Confessing Church, no they weren't perfect, but they opposed the Nazi Regime,

Answer: There are reportedly 380 mainstream and 4000 factions of the Christian Church, the fact that some Churches oppose another is nearly irrelevant and does not excuse the support the Church did offered.

The Vatican had it's own problems in Italy yet there was still anti-Nazi sermons from behind the pulpit.

Answer: The Vatican believes murdering 500 Nations in the Americas was just to this day….like rape victims, the Native Americans DESIRED to be converted as the where being exterminated….this is the 2011 position by6 the way.

Yes the Nazi established a state church, but I do believe they held Mein Kampf as more inspired then the Bible, and believe that Christ, King of the Jews and Lion of the Tribe of Judah was not Jewish,


Answer: I see, so because there were not your denomination and had different views excusses and apologies they were wrong…wow, you just eliminated 99% of all of Christianity as being even Christian. I guess you are so lucky to have been born in an area which you obtained your training and denominational faith.

That's not really Christianity. Crusades and Inquisitions where defensive wars!

Answer: Wow, how did I know this was coming….as it concerns the bible (which is evil), Adolf Hitler was one of the greatest Christians ever! He supported the bible in every way, created a social welfare system, plummeted secularism, and brought a broken Nation to a world power through the inspiration of your god and his bible. Now because the Church and your-self find his works distasteful (and because he lost) your apology is that he wasn’t really a Christian. Heads up, he was a devote Christian, Google his paining of the Madonna he made in his youth….he was way more devote than you my friend….

Muslim empires were growing and threating places Like Byzantium so the East called the West for help, Yes the Church got involved, but Western Civialition does not equal Christian Doctrine.

Answer: Irrelevant…

The next 6 weren't nearly as meaningful, but some of them had nothing to do with Muslims such as the 4th Crusade,

Answer: Irrelevant…..
What do you gain from this bickering?

Answer: What is gained in the continuance of covering up historical data in not for mere profit and PR?

Canada used to be one of the most anti-semetic countries in the Western World, now our Prime Minister is nuts about Israel, does that reflect the people in the Courty or the Country itself? I really don't understand your point. If I was a praticing Jew and I decided to have rital orgies on the Sabbath, does that make it an aspect of Juadism or is it an abuse of Juadism? Take any political ideology, any religious ideology or even lack there of and then think that bit over.

Answer: I have, every time a religious ideology manifest itself within a government and politics…..atrocities are the end result ALWAYS!
 
Chase200mph

Chase200mph

Member

Now I'm getting all huffed up :p I mean this only because of my frustration, you have every right to believe Christianity is a horrible thing here on Earth if it suits your fancy but I'd rather you look into it a bit more.

Answer: Sure he does, sure I do….but your church and religion has no right to cover it up through the brainwashing that is affecting you at this very moment …now does it.



To go back to the orginal post I'll have to say I don't believe evil exists, it is merely the absence of good.

Answer: Neither evil or good exist, or they both do…..

It is vital in free will in relation to a diety that we be able to do what that diety doesn't want us to do, by defetion evil, though it is only the absence of divine will that creates that situation

Answer: By killing millions of people as his inspired word tells you to…..after all, you were just following orders, right? The headquarters of a Taliban are not evil, just the terrorist that crash plains into the Twin Towers are…..your logic is flawed! You are not committing terrorist acts, but you support the group that does…the Church. What would Jesus do? Advocate child abuse and murder amongst many other cruelties.

Christians are always claiming, “he’s the lamb”, “our savior”, “the king of peace”, “the embodiment of love”, amongst the many other names they associate with a loving, merciful nature. Jesus a nice guy? Not in my book. Nor in any other person’s who is capable of compassion and rationality. Let’s examine who the hell the Jesus character really is. These verses will show not only is Jesus’ “loving” nature a joke but so are the Christians who worship him. Jesus’ real mission to come to earth:

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

Jesus says, “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. “The real beauty of this verse is that Jesus demands people truly love him more then they love their own family. I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with? Love is an emotion pertaining to physical existence not to faithful ideologies, yet God threatens you with Death just because your love for your mother maybe stronger than your love for him. Matthew 10:34

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17



Jesus advocates murder and death:

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20

Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God. (The winepress is the actual press that humans shall be put into so that we may be ground up.) Revelations 19:13-15

The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest of us the unchosen will be killed with the sword of Jesus. “An all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” Revelations 19:20-21



Jesus says he is the only way to salvation yet he purposely disillusions us so that we will go to hell:

Jesus explains that the reason he speaks in parables is so that no one will understand him, “lest . . . they . . . should understand . . . and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Matthew 13:10-15

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables to confuse people so they will go to hell. Mark 4:11-12



Jesus advocates child abuse:

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7

Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he’ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it’s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9



A few other things about Jesus:

Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. Mark 4:25

Jesus sends the devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. Clearly Jesus could have simply sent the devils out, yet he chose instead to place them into pigs and kill them. This is called animal abuse. Mark 5:12-13

Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing figs, even though it was out of season. Jesus must not be as smart as Christians would have us believe, for he was retarded enough to do something this silly. You’d think the son of god (god incarnate) would know that trees don’t bear fruit in dry season. Mark 11:13

Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves.

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religion99

religion99

Active Member
According to Jainism , God is all-knowing , but not all-powerful and all-loving. Hence , there is no problem of evil. Free Will and Omniscience is reconciled by the argument that both are the factors in all the actions , but Free Will is the primary factor.
 
crystalonyx

crystalonyx

Well-Known Member
One problem is defining what is "evil". Is evil something that we do against a supposed god's will, or is evil breaking man's laws?
 
Drax

Drax

Independent
Allow me:


What man calls God does not possess human emotions, thus love as well as hate cannot exist in God. Love as a human emotion held by a father for his children is human, not divine. If God so loved man (as a human father is to love his son), children would not die of Cancer. I can neither say that God possesses hatred as it is also a human emotion and not divine.

What God could possess is Unconditional Acceptance. That is, Perfect Love (which is not emotional love/love based on emotions. It has no cause and no conditions). Unconditional Acceptance implies that since every manifest thing has come from God (including potential to miss the mark, though not missing the mark itself because God is perfect).

God thus accepts the rapist, the child slayer, the murderer, the liar, the adulterer and all manner of other undesirables purely because they came out of potential (which God has created from). Unconditional Acceptance also features a most unique philosophy; perfect tolerance and perfect judgement.

Perfect tolerance / perfect judgement means God not only accepts everything as it is without interfering (free will/choice) but has no desire to interfere! What does this mean for the concept of sin? Nothing that sin did not already define (to miss the mark). In this case, to miss the mark of God's perfection by realizing unconditional acceptance/perfect tolerance/perfect judgement in a human form.

It also means that evil whether as part of human nature or part of the natural world does not exist; it is a mere perception.

God thus by Unconditional Acceptance is a perfect judge (because God does not actually judge as man defines judgement) and perfectly tolerant (thus permitting for free will/choice). Furthermore, free will/choice could not be realized without what most call evil.
 
Drax

Drax

Independent
@ Crystal

War is growth for both the victor and the defeated. Humanity thrives on conflict, not peace. Without war, men of either side could not test their mettle, develop new technology or find out where they excel/fail.

The victor enjoys the spoils of the war (and his successful technology/medicine resulting from the need to win) and the defeated learns to develop better technology/medicine in order to win a future war against the same enemy or another. It is that or he learns how to raise the white flag and grow with his once enemy. (In current war, international bonds are forged and broken).
 
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