Free Will as Nonsense.

[David T]

Christians are fond of the idea of Freewill. I'm suspecting that idea is a fantasy.

Lawyers are not free.

 

[David T]

It's called free will, not freedom from consequence. No choice can be without consequence, or it's not a choice at all.[/QUOTE
No kidding... i was married to satan once and that had serious consequences..

NOTE
Ok this is religious forums and some may be confused by the term satan used here. It in this simgular context it isnt a metaphor or euphemism!!!!

 

[Milton Platt]

Got to define what it is. Some concepts are, some are not.

Specifically Christian free will, the ability to choose between doing right and wrong? Our entire legal system is based on free will being a reality. Do you believe you can decide not to do something bad?

Maybe Christianity has a confusing concept of the mechanics of free will in the face of an all powerful, all knowing God , but it comes down to IMO, can you choose between doing good and evil?

The question is why we chose between the two......is that choice completely free or is it influenced by such things as genetics, personal experiences, peer groups, etc. can we make choices that are completely free from all influence? Or are choices guided by other things outside of us?

 

[osgart]

No until we stop to think about it. Then the facts to the contrary start to pile up.

For example, how is a brain, or a soul, or God, capable of making a decision that isn't the product of a decision-making process, whether a reasoned and informed approach or tossing a coin? As you probably know, the brain's decision-making processes have been the subject of much research, particularly on whether the conscious mind is the decision-maker, or the last to know what the nonconscious mind has decided, the latter having considerable experimental support.

The nonconscious mind is my will and things i have decided on that are well past conscious consideration because i have already decided on them my full self previously.

 

[Ellen Brown]

do you believe in predestination? if not freewill the ability to choose what you wanna do then what? I'm genuinely asking to understand your stance

No predestination. Oh and most certainly no Trinity because it is a machination of the early Catholic Church. I also believe in the individual Priesthood of the believer.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Lawyers are not free.
View attachment 24755

That has nothing to do with it dork.

 

[Milton Platt]

Christians are fond of the idea of Freewill. I'm suspecting that idea is a fantasy.

As someone mentioned, there can be nuances in the way the word is defined and used. But in the absolute sense, I do not see how it is possible.

Christians sometimes argue that their god does not simply make it known plainly to all of humanity that he exists because that removes free will to choose to beleive in him and/or worship him.
And yet, in their own book, satan is said to be an angel who knew with certainty that there was a god and he still chose to not worship this god. Either there is no free will in heaven and Satan had no choice in his decision, or Satan had free will and chose not to worship god in spite of having a much more intimate knowledge of god than “mere mortals” ever could.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I operate on the premise that I have free will, but I do not definitively know that I have it. Just as I do not definitively know that I do not have it. I think that I have free will. Perhaps that is all it takes.

We are the product of our biological and social history and we make choices by the hundreds daily. Even when the decision making process is so natural and carried out without much active analysis or thought to the mechanisms of the process itself.

Perhaps I am only lying to myself, but, if so, that is my choice. The alternative seems rather depressing.

I'm right there with ya, mate. I decided long ago that free will has utility, and that's enough.

 

[LiveByFaithNotSight]

No predestination. Oh and most certainly no Trinity because it is a machination of the early Catholic Church. I also believe in the individual Priesthood of the believer.

I agree I'm firmly against the Trinity

 

[David T]

That has nothing to do with it dork.

Oh.....!!!!! Sorry my adhd kicked in.

 

[dianaiad]

My sympathies to you because you had to add more complexity to it all by adding the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. What?

Sorry, just in a funny, snotty mood.

...and this is relevant, how, precisely?

in point of fact, as the Catholics have the apocrypha, many of the followers of Martin Luther and John Calvin have to decide whether to go along with their wish to DELETE books...the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints has the bible (the KJV is the one we have footnoted and cross referenced, though we are by no means "KJV only" folks)
we have the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price (which contains the Book of Abraham AND the book of Moses, along with Joseph Smith's version of Matthew, the history of Joseph Smith and the Articles of Faith), and the Doctrine and Covenants. We also believe that we have a prophet on the earth today and that new scripture can given to us at any time.

In other words, we do not believe that the canon is closed. Don't think we'll add anything to the bible as it is now compiled, but that there can be no more scripture written?

Nope.

However, as I said, that is not relevant to the topic of free will...except of course that the CoJCoLDS is not even remotely Calvinist. As for me, the whole idea of predestination makes me cringe.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I agree I'm firmly against the Trinity

You must exercise your power of your own Priesthood. Don't allow someone to tell you what the Bible means, know for yourself and stand firm. There are many who will try to exercise unrighteous dominion on you. There is no one who has the right to stand between you and God, save Jesus Christ, our intercessor.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Oh.....!!!!! Sorry my adhd kicked in.

Sorry

 

[Ellen Brown]

...and this is relevant, how, precisely?

in point of fact, as the Catholics have the apocrypha, many of the followers of Martin Luther and John Calvin have to decide whether to go along with their wish to DELETE books...the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints has the bible (the KJV is the one we have footnoted and cross referenced, though we are by no means "KJV only" folks)
we have the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price (which contains the Book of Abraham AND the book of Moses, along with Joseph Smith's version of Matthew, the history of Joseph Smith and the Articles of Faith), and the Doctrine and Covenants. We also believe that we have a prophet on the earth today and that new scripture can given to us at any time.

In other words, we do not believe that the canon is closed. Don't think we'll add anything to the bible as it is now compiled, but that there can be no more scripture written?

Nope.

However, as I said, that is not relevant to the topic of free will...except of course that the CoJCoLDS is not even remotely Calvinist. As for me, the whole idea of predestination makes me cringe.

Oh, please don't be offended by me.

 

[Cooky]

In my opinion, there exists a mindset that leans toward choosing the diminishment of humanity, or perhaps, the downgrading of the human being more often than not. This attitude, in itself, is yet another example of free will.

 

[Cooky]

Or perhaps It's just the mindset that if it hasn't been scientifically proven, then it cannot be taken seriously?

...But who ever said that science was bound to testing all things? Truthfully, there is no set role for what science is or should do.

 

[Thief]

Christians are fond of the idea of Freewill. I'm suspecting that idea is a fantasy.

if you are in the lead of your fantasy......are you not free?

 

[Cooky]

if you are in the lead of your fantasy......are you not free?

I think what some are saying is that there exists some kinds of parameters, that prevent us from true 'freedom'... And that, we're merely free within the parameters.

...But that's just the classical glass half empty, glass half full. It's one of those things that go circular... Typical abstract thinking.

 

[blü 2]

Error right at the start, which invalidates all the rest. God does not know everything that will occur before it occurs. He knows what will occur based upon the laws he has made, e.g. gravity, relativity.

So God doesn't know the future, you say, and thus is neither omnipotent nor omniscient nor omnipresent nor perfect and no way can be said to be 'Almighty'. Okay.

And thus God can't do prophecy, so you agree all that stuff about Jesus being prophesied in the Tanakh is nonsense. Fair enough.

I am quite amazed that you have assumed the mantle of defining the attributes of God.

Since nobody seems to have a useful definition of a real god, it looks very like the idea of a real god is incoherent. But the idea of an imaginary god I understand, and thus I'd feel free to imagine if occasion required. However in this case I'm simply running with the frequently asserted claims that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and perfect.

I prefer Gods definition of his own attributes as found in the Bible.

Perhaps you could quote them for me so that if I run into a real suspect, I'll be able to determine whether it's God or not ─ if the concept of 'God' is coherent, that should be easy. But in fact I've never worked it out and no one seems able to tell me, so I hope you can oblige.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Error right at the start, which invalidates all the rest. God does not know everything that will occur before it occurs. He knows what will occur based upon the laws he has made, e.g. gravity, relativity. He knows what will occur when He specifically chooses to bring something about. He knows every possible possibility of every possible situation. Except as stated as relates to humans, He does not know before they occur, the choices we will make.

I am quite amazed that you have assumed the mantle of defining the attributes of God.

I prefer Gods definition of his own attributes as found in the Bible.

Your attitude and confrontive tactics highlight the reasons that I left Christianity. You are neither God's little punisher or order keeper.