• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Free will deniers

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Sure, but you are bringing up a point that is completely irrelevant to the debate we are having.
You might have as well have said your dog is called free will.

This is my thread.
It's not yours, with all due respect. So I decide what's the topic here and what's relevant and what's not.
I am discussing the reason why people deny free will.

You are a free will denier? Good. But you haven't explained why, yet.
I am still waiting.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
One way to explain free will is with the current concerns about AI; artificial intelligence. One concern is computers may eventually exceed their programming, become conscious, and begin to make independent decisions, that can even change their program. They could then exceed their creator. If free will does not exist, we have nothing to fear by AI.

In the case of humans, we have two centers of consciousness; inner self and ego. The inner self is older and is what all animals have. Only humans have the ego. The formation of the ego firmware was part of human evolution, and appears to have formed about 6-10K years ago. Before that humans were more natural and less civilized.

What was the purpose of forming a secondary center in the natural human brain ? It makes sense, that this addendum expanded the capability of the primary or inner self. Will power and the choice to choose differently from the natural programs of the inner self; primary, allowed the inner self to collect new types of data for its own update.

Adam and Eve symbolize the first humans with stable ego secondaries. Adam was first in the Garden of Eden. He got depressed due to being alone. His ego repressed his natural instincts due to ego loneliness. The story goes he is put to sleep; ego was shut down for repair and update. Later he awakens to find Eve. This allows a way for his ego and inner self work well together in paradise.

Loss of paradise was connected to will and choice; tree of knowledge of good and ego, causing another repression of the inner self primary. The analogy is having your child finish your artistic painting, making it worse, than it was; go from inner self instinct to ego centric laws.

The flood of Noah may have been a metaphor for the inner self shutting off that prototype ego, for collective repair and update. After that, civilization started to advance, quickly due to the stable secondary working with the primary.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Either you are choosing to use your imagination to create a motivation or you are not.
Given what you have just said, I take it you mean that you are not choosing to use your imagination to create a motivation, you are just doing it, no actual choice involved. Is this correct?

If so, the lack of choice involved entails the absence of the volitional factor. Without the volitional factor, where is free will?
Excuse my silly example, but the analogy works just fine for what I am trying to convey: While humans are sleeping, we, sometimes, fart. We are not choosing to fart, we just do. It happens naturally. But we don't call those farts a moment of 'free will', because there was no volutionary aspect involved. Likewise, merely using your imagination randomly or for no reason in particular has nothing to do with free will. Do you get what I am saying?

First, to understand, of course not every act of imagination is without motivation. I wrote a post about "Shifting" were folks create a script for their imagination. Still they just provide a structure for their imagined world. The world itself takes on a life of it's own. IOW not willed.

What we imagine is not necessarily willed, but it can be.

This imagine "reality" not necessarily willed is not as you point out a matter of volition. It doesn't have to be. It's only part in in the causal chain is being the start. Something that did not exist in the past and will not necessarily exist in the future.

So to say all causality is predetermined by past events is wrong. That is the only point I am making here. Understand, I am not making an argument for free will yet. I am making an argument against determination.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
One way to explain free will is with the current concerns about AI; artificial intelligence. One concern is computers may eventually exceed their programming, become conscious, and begin to make independent decisions, that can even change their program. They could then exceed their creator. If free will does not exist, we have nothing to fear by AI.

In the case of humans, we have two centers of consciousness; inner self and ego. The inner self is older and is what all animals have. Only humans have the ego. The formation of the ego firmware was part of human evolution, and appears to have formed about 6-10K years ago. Before that humans were more natural and less civilized.

What was the purpose of forming a secondary center in the natural human brain ? It makes sense, that this addendum expanded the capability of the primary or inner self. Will power and the choice to choose differently from the natural programs of the inner self; primary, allowed the inner self to collect new types of data for its own update.

Adam and Eve symbolize the first humans with stable ego secondaries. Adam was first in the Garden of Eden. He got depressed due to being alone. His ego repressed his natural instincts due to ego loneliness. The story goes he is put to sleep; ego was shut down for repair and update. Later he awakens to find Eve. This allows a way for his ego and inner self work well together in paradise.

Loss of paradise was connected to will and choice; tree of knowledge of good and ego, causing another repression of the inner self primary. The analogy is having your child finish your artistic painting, making it worse, than it was; go from inner self instinct to ego centric laws.

The flood of Noah may have been a metaphor for the inner self shutting off that prototype ego, for collective repair and update. After that, civilization started to advance, quickly due to the stable secondary working with the primary.

Let me see if I understand this.

You are saying the ego (I would see this as the conscious mind) has the ability to create something new, which didn't exist before for the inner self (the sub or unconscious mind) to digest. Which could change the normal or natural course a person would take?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
First, to understand, of course not every act of imagination is without motivation. I wrote a post about "Shifting" were folks create a script for their imagination. Still they just provide a structure for their imagined world. The world itself takes on a life of it's own. IOW not willed.

What we imagine is not necessarily willed, but it can be.

This imagine "reality" not necessarily willed is not as you point out a matter of volition. It doesn't have to be. It's only part in in the causal chain is being the start. Something that did not exist in the past and will not necessarily exist in the future.

So to say all causality is predetermined by past events is wrong. That is the only point I am making here. Understand, I am not making an argument for free will yet. I am making an argument against determination.

I am not a hard-core determinist for I accept indeterminism up to a certain point too. I generally don't include it into those debates to avoid further complicating things. But the kind of indeterminism I accept as true doesn't allow for free will. In other words, a (real) random thought that pops into your mind doesn't contradict my perspective. What do you have in mind to support free will?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
This is my thread.
It's not yours, with all due respect. So I decide what's the topic here and what's relevant and what's not.
I am discussing the reason why people deny free will.

You are a free will denier? Good. But you haven't explained why, yet.
I am still waiting.

I have explained, but you want an explanation with very very simples words and I can't provide it to you.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I am not a hard-core determinist for I accept indeterminism up to a certain point too. I generally don't include it into those debates to avoid further complicating things. But the kind of indeterminism I accept as true doesn't allow for free will. In other words, a (real) random thought that pops into your mind doesn't contradict my perspective. What do you have in mind to support free will?

I define free will differently. I see free will as the ability to do what you want to do.
These other, philosophical concepts of free will define free will as something incoherent.

I don't see much point in arguing against something that has been defined in such a way to make it incoherent.
You want to argue a specific concept of free will is incoherent? Well yes, it is incoherent because you defined it that way.
Seems impractical to me but that doesn't stop people from doing it.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
As I have said before, it is all connected and thus you can bring up moral responsibility in any debate concerning ethics. What I was saying is that we can speak about the merits of moral realism, for example, without ever talking about moral responsibility.

But none of the merits of moral realism are relevant unless we understand that morality involves moral agents being responsible to do this or not that. Ethics is literally the study of what one ought do. The entire game is moral responsibility.

As I have said before, I consider this to be quite redundant. Whether you call it a choice is of little relevancy as long as we don't talk past each other.

My point is the concept, not the semantics. Substantively, you're talking about people not being able to make a genuine decision to do this vs. that. Choices are illusions.

In one case there is one will being supressed by another. In the other case, there is no one, nor thing, suppresing someone's will.

If the laws of nature or what have you have uncontrollably, unwaveringly determined what I must do and will do, then yes, there literally is something suppressing my will. Something is literally changing my will to make me incapable of willing anything else. In all these situations, the actor has no control of their behavior. They do only and always what they are constrained to do and can only do. There's no wiggling out of this with semantics. You can't reasonably hold someone morally responsible for something over which they have no control. That is absurd.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I define free will differently. I see free will as the ability to do what you want to do.
These other, philosophical concepts of free will define free will as something incoherent.

I don't see much point in arguing against something that has been defined in such a way to make it incoherent.
You want to argue a specific concept of free will is incoherent? Well yes, it is incoherent because you defined it that way.
Seems impractical to me but that doesn't stop people from doing it.

But here's the thing...
This definition of free will I am presenting (I am referring to one of my first posts on this topic) is not specific to just one side of the debate (the determinists), it encompasses both sides of the debate.

Let me put it this way: Imagine Joe killed Steve out of malice intent. The side of the debate defending free will wants to argue (speaking in terms of philosophical debates) that Joe had the freedom to do otherwise. It certainly wouldn't suffice to say that Joe was making use of his ability to do what he wanted, for even (most of) the determinist would agree that Joe did what he wanted. And if it somehow turns out that it is incoherent to say that Joe had the freedom to do otherwise, then that means the determinist side of the debate had a point.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
But here's the thing...
This definition of free will I am presenting (I am referring to one of my first posts on this topic) is not specific to just one side of the debate (the determinists), it encompasses both sides of the debate.

Let me put it this way: Imagine Joe killed Steve out of malice intent. The side of the debate defending free will wants to argue (speaking in terms of philosophical debates) that Joe had the freedom to do otherwise. It certainly wouldn't suffice to say that Joe was making use of his ability to do what he wanted, for even (most of) the determinist would agree that Joe did what he wanted. And if it somehow turns out that it is incoherent to say that Joe had the freedom to do otherwise, then that means the determinist side of the debate had a point.

Yes I would say Joe was free to not act on his motivation to kill Steve because he could imagine the consequences of doing so.
Or Joe never bothered to imagine the consequences of his action but he could have.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
But none of the merits of moral realism are relevant unless we understand that morality involves moral agents being responsible to do this or not that. Ethics is literally the study of what one ought do. The entire game is moral responsibility.

Relevant as in having a practical application?
Because I can grant you that we could argue all day long about meta-ethics whilst presuming that moral agents don't event exist in reality, since the existence of moral agents would be entirely inconsequential to the truth value of moral propositions, for example.

My point is the concept, not the semantics. Substantively, you're talking about people not being able to make a genuine decision to do this vs. that. Choices are illusions.


In a certain way, yes.

If the laws of nature or what have you have uncontrollably, unwaveringly determined what I must do and will do, then yes, there literally is something suppressing my will. Something is literally changing my will to make me incapable of willing anything else. In all these situations, the actor has no control of their behavior. They do only and always what they are constrained to do and can only do. There's no wiggling out of this with semantics. You can't reasonably hold someone morally responsible for something over which they have no control. That is absurd.

But the causal chain is not supressing your will, it is rather giving rise to it. What I am saying is that without the causal chain you would be an empty shell with literally no will (assuming your body could somehow still exist).
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Yes I would say Joe was free to not act on his motivation to kill Steve because he could imagine the consequences of doing so.
Or Joe never bothered to imagine the consequences of his action but he could have.

Great. So Joe imagined the consequences of doing so.
Either he chose to imagine it or he didn't (and it just happened by itself).
If he did, then we go back to the infinite regress problem.
If he didn't, then there is no volitional aspect and therefore no free will.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Relevant as in having a practical application?
Because I can grant you that we could argue all day long about meta-ethics whilst presuming that moral agents don't event exist in reality, since the existence of moral agents would be entirely inconsequential to the truth value of moral propositions, for example.

The point is that morality is relevant because we understand that humans possess moral responsibility for what they do or don't do. All moral discussion flows from that. The differences between moral realism and relativism, for example, are a point of discussion because they are relevant to how we ought act. You're acting as though you can have a moral system without implicating moral responsibility. Ya can't. The dog don't hunt.

In a certain way, yes.

Then your ability to reasonably hold people morally accountable collapses. Morality becomes a cruel joke, an incoherent mess.

But the causal chain is not supressing your will, it is rather giving rise to it.

What is the difference, morally? If you cause me to will something, or cause me not to will something, the moral consequences as far as my actions go are identical. We're essentially talking about mind control, either by someone or something.

What I am saying is that without the causal chain you would be an empty shell with literally no will (assuming your body could somehow still exist).

As I explained earlier in the thread, on determinism you'd have to demonstrate that the causal chain explains 100% of all outcomes. I can understand that a causal chain led to a situation to some extent, while still believing that I have genuine choice within the causal sandbox I play within.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Great. So Joe imagined the consequences of doing so.
Either he chose to imagine it or he didn't (and it just happened by itself).
If he did, then we go back to the infinite regress problem.
If he didn't, then there is no volitional aspect and therefore no free will.

Of course there is volition. If there is no volition then there is no action.
He can decide to act on what he imagine he can decide to act on his emotions or can decide to not act at all.
Each requires volition. For it to be free it just means that nothing external forced him into one decision or another.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
I had a mentor in the past whom I met again after 10 years. A philosophy professor. He told me something about free will: there are several kinds of people. Those with enormous volition that use their willpower to do either good things or bad things; and there are people with scarce volition who are too scared to use their own free will, for they don't want to commit mistakes. There are so many shades of individualistic cases inbetween.
He also told me that free will deniers are usually people with a big volition who use their prepotency to destroy other people's lives.
They deny free will exists because admitting it does exist would make them feel guilty of all that they have done unto others.
It's a self-defense mechanism not to feel guilty.
What do you think, guys? ;)

Do you have free will to choose an option that you don't know about? IOW, your free will would only apply to your awareness of options.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
This is a common theme of your reasoning. You think "natural laws and processes" = determinism. But that's precisely what needs to be proved here. What if agency is a natural law or process?

I'm not a determinist because, as far as I know, quantum mechanics demonstrates that there's a lot of randomness in the universe. However, that doesn't mean we control this randomness, as I previously mentioned.

As for agency, in order for it to be a consistent concept, we would have to define what the agent is in the first place. Who is doing the choosing? That's the question I've brought up multiple times in this discussion, because I think it's at the core of the whole subject. If our experience of a conscious, "choosing" self is merely a product of biology and natural laws, I don't see how it is "free." It is just an expression and continuation of natural processes.

For agency to be a natural law or process, the notion of an agent first has to be coherently defined. I don't think it is, mainly for the above reasons.

As I explained previously, we change ourselves. So yes, choices do have causal power - but we still choose them.

The actions we take can change us, but this doesn't address why or how we took said actions. If a tribe in the Amazon went to Harvard and studied physics, they would all be physicists. But they won't take that action; they don't want to move to a city in the first place. There are many actions that can change our lives, but whether or not we take a specific action at a specific time is, in my opinion, not a product of agency or free will.

Being a serial killer is not the only way to kill multiple people. Being a reckless driver can be part of a larger pattern of reckless behavior that can endanger others. But again, I'm betting you want the reckless driver to have a lesser punishment than the murderer, even if they only ever end up killing the same number of people in their lives. So again, something is afoot here beyond raw harm assessment. Intention is morally relevant.

As long as the reckless driver failed to rehabilitate, I would want them to remain in rehabilitation. They could remain there for a year or 50, and the same goes for the murderer. No murderer should be released from rehabilitation before qualified professionals deem them no longer a threat to society.

On average, murderers need to remain in rehab for much longer than reckless drivers because the former tend to have issues that are far more complicated and harder to address than the latter. I'm not talking about punishment; I'm talking about reform and rehab. Punishment seems to imply retribution as the basis, but I don't think that's a sound basis for a legal system—and punitive legal systems tend to have higher recidivism rates than rehabilitative ones (e.g., Norway's and Finland's).


Rehabilitation can be effective, but you're still going to run into moral accountability there: part of the process of rehabilitation is convincing the criminal that they are morally accountable for their behavior and should therefore change it because they see their choices are harming others, which is wrong.

This goes back to my point that phrasing things in such terms tends to be practically useful, even if the concepts themselves may not withstand deep scrutiny (in my opinion). When I meditate, I also feel a lot of peace of mind because I believe that an action I can take is helping me. This doesn't mean that action is a result of free agency, but strictly in terms of my capacity to be able to do something, it is something I can (and do) practice in order to improve my quality of life.

If someone else believes that the action they can take is also one that they are freely choosing, then more power to them. I just don't believe it is, for the reasons I've already expanded on in this thread.

Again, you'd have to make the case on determinism that 100% of our action is dictated by forces beyond our control, and that it has nothing to do with our choice to engage in the intervention.

This is a complex part to get into because it touches on two different things. First, we would need to clarify exactly what we mean by "we": the same point about the concept of self applies. If our subjective experience of self is a product of biology and natural law, then saying "we do X or Y" is equivalent to saying "biology and natural law have done X or Y." The only difference is that, in this case, biology and natural law result in a conscious actor rather than an unconscious one (like a rock or a leaf).

Second, as a continuation of the above point, our "choice" to engage in the intervention is then an expression of multiple factors that have nothing to do with free agency but rather an accumulation of factors and processes that we indeed don't determine or control, even if it feels like we do. For example, neither of us can just "choose" to believe that therapy is a pseudoscience or that homeopathy is impeccably effective. This belief, which we can't choose, plays a part in our opting for therapy, and so do many other beliefs and thoughts that we don't choose either.

Parenthetically, I'll emphasize that the word "determinism" doesn't describe my position because, in most common usage I've seen, it tends to imply a complete lack of randomness. I believe there's randomness in the universe, however, so I'm not a determinist in that sense. Actually, I don't even think whether or not the universe has randomness has any bearing on the question of agency or lack thereof; we still don't control these natural processes either way.

It sounds like you are saying we're slaves of our feelings, though. Perhaps one feeling takes over another, but eventually we just inexorably, uncontrollably do whatever our strongest whim tells us we must do. Slavery by any other name...

No, we may discard even our strongest whims due to our mental constitution and techniques we learn throughout our lives, so that's not my point. However, the combination of our mental constitution and the techniques or knowledge that allows us to regulate emotions and thoughts in specific ways is still bound by the arguments I've elaborated on before. It feels as though I'm "choosing" to practice emotional regulation and various mental techniques, but I'm practicing them because an accumulation of factors has added up to this point.

My action of learning and practicing such techniques is primarily a result of my belief in the effectiveness of therapy, my desire to improve my quality of life, and my drive to navigate thoughts and emotions in a healthy manner. But could I "choose" to believe that therapy is ineffective or to simply drop my desire to improve my quality of life? Could I choose to desire a mentally unhealthy life instead? If not, then the action I took was a result of factors that, again, are ultimately not down to free choice.

Furthermore, we're still left with the issue of defining who or what the agent is and whether said agent is truly "free." It could feel like I'm choosing every single thing in my life, but that's a subjective feeling and experience that doesn't necessarily reflect the actual functioning of natural laws and processes.

See above. "Natural laws" =/= determinism.

I've responded to the point about determinism above.

Agency doesn't require omniscience.

No, but if our actions are decided by our knowledge, experiences, and beliefs, then a lot of our actions are merely a function of things that ultimately come down to a lot of phenomena and processes well beyond our control. Religious beliefs are a prime example of this: they can permeate almost every single aspect of a person's life, yet that person can't simply "choose" to stop believing. They would have to be convinced to believe or not, but we don't "choose" what we find convincing either. Could you convince yourself that the Earth was flat even if you tried? Or that Jesus was coming back to redeem all believers and leave non-believers behind?

And their ignorant assessment of us would be just as flawed as the determinist's is. ;)

You've said earlier that you agree that more intelligence could theoretically confer a higher degree of agency, so I'm not sure why their assessment would be ignorant. The difference between our intelligence and theirs could hypothetically be as big as the difference between our intelligence and a crocodile's, which could entail a correspondingly big difference in agency.
 
Last edited:

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
There is a huge philosophical debate concerning the existence of free will, where great minds have, over centuries, made contributions. You are entirely free to come up with arguments to defend a position in any of the sides on this debate, and I commend anyone and everyone for thinking through on this topic. I respect both positions.

However, even after being explained why you are misusing the central term on this debate, you refuse to rectify your usage. You feel entitled to an ignorant opinion that is not grounded on the work of any philosopher.
This is the @Trailblazer post to you after you put her on ignore. You can scroll quickly through this message and put me on ignore if you want to. But I want her to be heard.

As to the quote and second link, I have reservations about this argument. If we did not have free will, I believe, still the justice system would still have to punish criminals as if the had free will, because even if they didn't, there would be no deterrent to future crime, and their deterministic response would still be more crime being committed in the future.

I do not care what some philosophers 'believe' about free will.
My belief about free will is grounded on logic and what my religion teaches, which is grounded on God's Word.

Question.—Is man a free agent in all his actions, or is he compelled and constrained?
Answer.—This question is one of the most important and abstruse of divine problems. If God wills, another day, at the beginning of dinner, we will undertake the explanation of this subject in detail; now we will explain it briefly, in a few words, as follows. Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.
For example, if he wishes, he can pass his time in praising God, or he can be occupied with other thoughts. He can be an enkindled light through the fire of the love of God, and a philanthropist loving the world, or he can be a hater of mankind, and engrossed with material things. He can be just or cruel. These actions and these deeds are subject to the control of the will of man himself; consequently, he is responsible for them.
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

You can read the whole chapter on free will on this link; 70: FREE WILL
In other words, this post of yours comes down to basically picking up philosophy as a topic of debate and... taking a **** on it, and worse yet, being proud of it. You will have more time to talk to your cats from now on, because I will no longer further entertain you since you have achieved a very special place: my ignore list. Have a good day.
You just cannot tolerate being wrong, that is obvious. But you are wrong, because any person of any intelligence knows that humans have free will to choose between right and wrong, and that is why the entire justice system is based upon this premise.

“Everyone wants to hold criminals responsible for their actions. This “responsibility” has its foundation in the belief that we all have the free will to choose right from wrong. What if free will is just an illusion, how would that impact the criminal justice system? Free will creates the moral structure that provides the foundation for our criminal justice system. Without it, most punishments in place today must be eliminated completely. Its no secret that I’m a firm believer in free will, but I’m also a firm believer in arguing against it when it helps my clients. That’s what we lawyers do (call me a hypocrite if you like, I can take it). Now, let’s delve into the issues and practical effects of eliminating free will.
We only punish those who are morally responsible for their action. If a driver accidentally runs over a pedestrian–there will be no criminal charges in the death of the pedestrian. This is what we call an “accident”. However, if a husband runs over his wife after an argument, that same pedestrian death now constitutes murder. It was the driver’s “intent” that made one pedestrian death a crime, and the other not. But, what if we examine the husband’s brain, and an MRI discovers a frontal lobe defect that could explain his deviant behavior? Is he still guilty of murder? If such a defect “caused” the husband’s actions, our criminal justice system has laws in place that would label the husband “Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity”......
As you can see from the appellate opinion above, our criminal laws are founded on the notion that if a person is not acting by his free will, the law cannot hold him “accountable for his choices”. There are plenty of other examples of Florida criminal laws that would benefit my clients, should everyone agree that free will is an illusion. For example, confessions cannot not be entered into evidence unless they are made of the defendant’s “own free will”. The term “free will” is contained right there in the definition of numerous legal concepts. Other criminal law concepts would lose their meaning as well, like “premeditation”. Is it realistic to speak of premeditation if freewill doesn’t exist? Is a robot on an assembly line in China premeditating the building of an iPhone? The mere fact that a robot takes several distinct steps to complete a task doesn’t render its actions ‘premeditated’. Such concepts should be purged from our criminal justice system if we’re all just biological robots.
Should science convince the world that free will is an illusion–we must move past notions of “punishment” and “sentencing”. This is not just intellectual musings; concepts of free will impact the criminal courts on a daily basis....... The bottom line here is best expressed by Professor Shaun Nichols in his lectures entitled Free Will and Determinism: “if science convinces us that free will is an illusion, we seem to face a moral conclusion that is difficult to accept: that all criminals should be excused for their crimes.”
Free WIll, Determinism, and the Criminal Justice System
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not a determinist because, as far as I know, quantum mechanics demonstrates that there's a lot of randomness in the universe. However, that doesn't mean we control this randomness, as I previously mentioned.

Determinism is the position that all actions are caused by events external to human agency/"free will." So your concession that there's some uncontrollable randomness in the universe still puts you in the determinist camp.

As for agency, in order for it to be a consistent concept, we would have to define what the agent is in the first place.

We are.

Who is doing the choosing? That's the question I've brought up multiple times in this discussion, because I think it's at the core of the whole subject. If our experience of a conscious, "choosing" self is merely a product of biology and natural laws, I don't see how it is "free." It is just an expression and continuation of natural processes.

This, again, speaks to an assumption you're making that I don't see a reason for. You're assuming that agency would not be a natural process. Why? Our selves can be products of nature and we can still have agency. What's the contradiction there? Why isn't that possible?

For agency to be a natural law or process, the notion of an agent first has to be coherently defined. I don't think it is, mainly for the above reasons.

We are agents. Actors who have the ability to make conscious decisions between multiple options. I see no incoherence there.

The actions we take can change us, but this doesn't address why or how we took said actions. If a tribe in the Amazon went to Harvard and studied physics, they would all be physicists. But they won't take that action; they don't want to move to a city in the first place. There are many actions that can change our lives, but whether or not we take a specific action at a specific time is, in my opinion, not a product of agency or free will.

Again, the fact that our choices in life aren't infinite (I can't choose to speak Arabic right now) doesn't therefore mean we have no agency whatsoever.

As long as the reckless driver failed to rehabilitate, I would want them to remain in rehabilitation. They could remain there for a year or 50, and the same goes for the murderer. No murderer should be released from rehabilitation before qualified professionals deem them no longer a threat to society.

This is much easier said than done, unfortunately. We all represent some level of threat, and accurate prediction of our future threat level is a tough nut. But the more fundamental point here is that reckless drivers intend less harm, and that's morally relevant to the assessment of their actions.

On average, murderers need to remain in rehab for much longer than reckless drivers because the former tend to have issues that are far more complicated and harder to address than the latter. I'm not talking about punishment; I'm talking about reform and rehab. Punishment seems to imply retribution as the basis, but I don't think that's a sound basis for a legal system—and punitive legal systems tend to have higher recidivism rates than rehabilitative ones (e.g., Norway's and Finland's).

There's certainly something to be said about the benefits of rehabilitating criminals, when it can be done (it can't always). But that's a different thread.

This goes back to my point that phrasing things in such terms tends to be practically useful, even if the concepts themselves may not withstand deep scrutiny (in my opinion). When I meditate, I also feel a lot of peace of mind because I believe that an action I can take is helping me. This doesn't mean that action is a result of free agency, but strictly in terms of my capacity to be able to do something, it is something I can (and do) practice in order to improve my quality of life.

If you have the capacity to do something, and also the capacity not to do it, and you chose to do it...that's agency. :shrug:

This is a complex part to get into because it touches on two different things. First, we would need to clarify exactly what we mean by "we": the same point about the concept of self applies. If our subjective experience of self is a product of biology and natural law, then saying "we do X or Y" is equivalent to saying "biology and natural law have done X or Y." The only difference is that, in this case, biology and natural law result in a conscious actor rather than an unconscious one (like a rock or a leaf).

Again, we seem to be repeating ourselves. This is inly relevant if you assume that "biology and natural law" = determinism. Which is not a case that's been successfully made, IMO.

No, we may discard even our strongest whims due to our mental constitution and techniques we learn throughout our lives, so that's not my point.

If "mental constitution and techniques" are essentially other whims over which we exercise no control...then unfortunately, we are still slaves.

However, the combination of our mental constitution and the techniques or knowledge that allows us to regulate emotions and thoughts in specific ways is still bound by the arguments I've elaborated on before. It feels as though I'm "choosing" to practice emotional regulation and various mental techniques, but I'm practicing them because an accumulation of factors has added up to this point.

You still arrive at a decision point wherein you could engage in the behaviors or not.

Furthermore, we're still left with the issue of defining who or what the agent is and whether said agent is truly "free." It could feel like I'm choosing every single thing in my life, but that's a subjective feeling and experience that doesn't necessarily reflect the actual functioning of natural laws and processes.

I'm not claiming we choose every single thing. Just some things. Those who deny any human agency have to demonstrate that we never chose anything whatsoever.

No, but if our actions are decided by our knowledge, experiences, and beliefs, then a lot of our actions are merely a function of things that ultimately come down to a lot of phenomena and processes well beyond our control.

A lot, yes. All?

You've said earlier that you agree that more intelligence could theoretically confer a higher degree of agency, so I'm not sure why their assessment would be ignorant.

Their assessment would be ignorant if they believed we had no agency, not just less than them. (To be clear, I'm agnostic on the question of whether anything in the universe actually has greater agency than we do.)

The difference between our intelligence and theirs could hypothetically be as big as the difference between our intelligence and a crocodile's, which could entail a correspondingly big difference in agency.

Indeed, perhaps a difference. But not a reason to assume we have none at all. Incidentally, crocodiles may have some agency - I don't pretend to be an expert in crocodile psychology.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
The point is that morality is relevant because we understand that humans possess moral responsibility for what they do or don't do.

But this is just a subjective value judgment on your part and not a point worthy of debate.

All moral discussion flows from that. The differences between moral realism and relativism, for example, are a point of discussion because they are relevant to how we ought act. You're acting as though you can have a moral system without implicating moral responsibility. Ya can't. The dog don't hunt.

I am not saying that we can have a moral system without implicating moral responsibility. I am saying we can discuss most of the topics concerning ethics without talking about moral responsibility. Just like we can talk about meta-ethics without talking about normative ethics.

Then your ability to reasonably hold people morally accountable collapses. Morality becomes a cruel joke, an incoherent mess.

In your opinion, because you have distinct standards for what is required to have moral responsibility.

What is the difference, morally? If you cause me to will something, or cause me not to will something, the moral consequences as far as my actions go are identical. We're essentially talking about mind control, either by someone or something.

But it is not mind control if you wouldn't have a mind in the first place.

As I explained earlier in the thread, on determinism you'd have to demonstrate that the causal chain explains 100% of all outcomes. I can understand that a causal chain led to a situation to some extent, while still believing that I have genuine choice within the causal sandbox I play within.

My argument of choice is to demonstrate that there is no room for free will. More or less what I have done on post #230.
 
Top