Free will deniers

[Koldo]

Well to make sure I understand what you mean by that, the freedom to do otherwise, can you give me an example of what that would entail.
To me it seems obvious that I had 3 options to choose from. So since you don't seem to understand this, I must be missing something.

You have the desire (motivation) to move your arm.
You don't care what particular alternative you will do, out of 3. Because they all equally satisfy your desire.
You proceed to do one of the 3 actions, apparently randomly.

You could have chosen differently if whatever randomly determined your choice had come up with a different action (out of the 3). But since it was random, it was not under your control. If it was not under your control, it was not an act of free will.

 

[Nakosis]

You have the desire (motivation) to move your arm.
You don't care what particular alternative you will do, out of 3. Because they all equally satisfy your desire.
You proceed to do one of the 3 actions, apparently randomly.

You could have chosen differently if whatever randomly determined your choice had come up with a different action (out of the 3). But since it was random, it was not under your control. If it was not under your control, it was not an act of free will.

If it wasn't under my control, who's control was it under?
Who moved my arm?

 

[Koldo]

If it wasn't under my control, who's control was it under?
Who moved my arm?

You did because of a random factor (the one that determined which of the 3 actions took place). This random factor is not under your control, right?

 

[Nakosis]

You did because of a random factor (the one that determined which of the 3 actions took place). This random factor is not under your control, right?

It's under my control but there is no external causal factor.
No one else made the decision. There was no want or desire influencing which I decided on.
I made the decision without weighing whether any option would be better than the other.

Prior to deciding, any of the 3 possibilities could have been selected.

I could do this over and over again each time making a different select or the same one.
All starting conditions being the same.

 

[Koldo]

It's under my control but there is no external causal factor.
No one else made the decision. There was no want or desire influencing which I decided on.
I made the decision without weighing whether any option would be better than the other.

Prior to deciding, any of the 3 possibilities could have been selected.

I could do this over and over again each time making a different select or the same one.
All starting conditions being the same.

This looks like pure randomness. And I truly don't see how pure randomness gives room to free will. If the outcome of your choice is subject to pure randomness, you are not under control.

 

[Nakosis]

This looks like pure randomness. And I truly don't see how pure randomness gives room to free will. If the outcome of your choice is subject to pure randomness, you are not under control.

However my will was to make a random decision. Was the choice to make a random decision not under my control?

 

[syo]

I had a mentor in the past whom I met again after 10 years. A philosophy professor. He told me something about free will: there are several kinds of people. Those with enormous volition that use their willpower to do either good things or bad things; and there are people with scarce volition who are too scared to use their own free will, for they don't want to commit mistakes. There are so many shades of individualistic cases inbetween.
He also told me that free will deniers are usually people with a big volition who use their prepotency to destroy other people's lives.
They deny free will exists because admitting it does exist would make them feel guilty of all that they have done unto others.
It's a self-defense mechanism not to feel guilty.
What do you think, guys?

Now that's bad luck. I hope you want meet that philosopher again.

 

[Koldo]

However my will was to make a random decision. Was the choice to make a random decision not under my control?

On what grounds did you make the choice to make a random decision? It was either through a preceeding motivation (which you had no control over) or as a result of randomness (which you also had no control over).

 

[Koldo]

This isn't an explanation, it's just a bald claim. Saying it's a personal value doesn't explain how morality without any moral responsibilities is relevant or what it even means. What is it that you're personally valuing? And what does that mean?

What is this objective measure by which you see yourself judging the relevancy of morality in the absence of moral agents? Show me it.

Yes, I know. And I'm saying that without genuine choice you have no coherent morality other than just baldly asserting it as such. It's not even internally consistent.

It is not internally consistent if I use your criteria to determine moral responsibility. If you disagree, show the inconsistency.

A) You don't actually know that.
B) How does that change anything? All it does is push the fundamental moral problem back a step.

I am saying I know that because the alternative I have been presented is logically incoherent upon examination.

They matter when you use them to build your argument but smuggle in meanings that are idiosyncratic. You talk about choice while talking about something that actually isn't a choice. You talk about moral agents who actually have no agency. Again: this is incoherent.

Since I could have used different terms to achieve the same end, this doesn't matter.

One can make a choice by opting between actions that have multiple motivations. Motivations create the possibility of an action being taken, but they don't guarantee it will be taken. The action that is ultimately taken is not necessarily the function of greater motivation, but a choice between different motivations that have both made different actions possible.

A choice done based on what if not the greater motivation? If I asked you why you have picked any given alternative, your answer would be the greater motivation.

I disagree. Someone with severe cognitive impairment is going to have less agency, for example, than someone with full mental capacity.

Since I said that there are other mental faculties involved and required, I have no idea what exactly you are disagreeing with.

Defenses of infinite regress typically come from those rebutting arguments for God, since God is often defined as an ultimate cause for the universe that avoids an infinite regress of causes. It's just interesting that you don't think infinite regresses are possible; I'm fascinated to know how that plays out in other applications in your worldview. Perhaps for another thread.

I don't think that God needs to be the ultimate cause. Nor that there needs to be an ultimate cause to explain existence.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

However my will was to make a random decision. Was the choice to make a random decision not under my control?

How does one make a random decision?

 

[Estro Felino]

So demonstrate to us that free will even exists at all.

Okay. Would you have sex with Leonardo Di Caprio?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Okay. Would you have sex with Leonardo Di Caprio?

He's not really my type so no.

 

[Estro Felino]

He's not really my type so no.

Perfect. Because you have a free will, and you decide not to have sex with him.

Au contraire, he's my type... really. I would do anything to have sex with him.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Perfect. Because you have a free will, and you decide not to have sex with him.

Au contraire, he's my type... really. I would do anything to have sex with him.

That doesn't demonstrate free will. I don't know why he's not my type, he just isn't.
But here's one for ya, if it's free will how did it turn out all three of her kids are into BDSM? You like Disney's Sleeping Beauty, I like the Claiming of Sleeping Beauty. Why is that?

 

[Estro Felino]

That doesn't demonstrate free will. I don't know why he's not my type, he just isn't.

It's also depend on our will. Not only on our inclinations.

But here's one for ya, if it's free will how did it turn out all three of her kids are into BDSM?

Whose kids?

You like Disney's Sleeping Beauty, I like the Claiming of Sleeping Beauty. Why is that?

Free will and personal preferences are intertwined.

 

[Heyo]

I haven't followed this thread but I stumbled over a video that fits the title and may be interesting to the discussion:

 

[Estro Felino]

I haven't followed this thread but I stumbled over a video that fits the title and may be interesting to the discussion:

Very interesting, I will watch it later, this evening, when I have time.

But...you know...I had a philosophy teacher, in high school that used to talk about Kant as her deity and guide.
And Kant used to say

 

[Trailblazer]

Au contraire, he's my type... really. I would do anything to have sex with him.

Me too.

 

[Estro Felino]

Me too.

You get me. He became even better with age.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Whose kids?

My mom's.

It's also depend on our will. Not only on our inclinations.

Inclinations aren't really chosen though.

Free will and personal preferences are intertwined.

What I'm proposing is that personal preference isn't a facet of free will but likely something bestowed upon us.