Free will

[Zsr1973]

Not true... free will means the freedom to choose a specific action. Whatever action you choose will have consequences good or bad, but those are things one must consider when making their decision... the REaction to your choice is simply that... something caused BY the choice you have made... that does not determine what that choice will be though.

Hello bunny.
I agree with you about the actual definition of free will. We all have the freedom to make a choice.

However, its the concept of free will that is false. You have the freedom to make the choice, but the choice itself is not free because there are always consequences and reactions.

As one who studies physics, this coincides with the natural law: to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Do you see what I mean?

 

[bunny1ohio]

Yourself. If there is not the correct input for you (including the input that comes from your own body, such as experience and memories) to take this action, you won't take it. The fact that only yourself (your body) stops you from doing these things does not imply free will, since you (your body) is merely a processer of information from the outside and the inside to output (actions).

Your reasons are your own, and come from your memory, your life experiences, and the way your body interprets this, and input coming from your environment. These are all factors that are set => one possible outcome, that can be theoretically predicted. No free will. I think the problem here is that you see your thought process as something that goes on outside of your body, something spiritual.

You choose to, based on the way your body interprets information, which it can only do in one way. Hence... no free will.

I disagree again... the only thing stopping me is that I choose to stay. There is nothing forcing me to remain here. If I chose to leave, I would. But it would be pointless for me to... hence I choose to stay as I am. I like my job... so I won't quit for no reason. I love my husband, therefore I wouldn't leave him for no reason. Even should there BE a reason... there is nothing that says I have to choose either option. That is strictly determined by my own thoughts. My "psyche" let's say. Yes the psyche is shaped by what occurs to us throughout our lives, and it may influence how we feel about something. But it does not dictate or force me to follow any given path. People make bad choices all the time. Did anything make them do it? I don't believe so.

Free will is the ability to decide for oneself... by definition

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

Another way of phrasing it is determination of one's own fate without outside compulsion or force. If you make the decision and nobody and nothing else outside of yourself (not memory or past experience) has forced that decision upon you... then it is free will. The decision is wholly your own based upon knowledge.... knowledge is not force, it is simply information.
What you are suggesting is called a false dichotomy... it is a decision based on the thought that there are only two possible options... free will... or predetermination...

There are other possibilities as well that have not been brought into the discussion. Had you not made certain choices in the past... you would not have the same "influences" now that "guide" your decisions. There is a randomness that you are not taking into account here. Example:

A woman goes to lunch with her friends one day.... meets a man.... falls in love with the man and gets married... they have two beautiful children and a wonderful life etc etc....

Same woman makes a different choice and decides not to go out with her friends that day... meets a different man and falls in love with him.... and becomes an abused spouse within 3 years. What was the determining factor in this scenario? Where she went to lunch... which was a decision she made at random. The fact that that man happened to be there that day is also random... among millions of other possible factors. She didn't have to go out with said man... or marry said man... etc etc

Her decision determined the outcome... the outcome was not pre-set by outside influences. Hence her will led to the decision. Hence... free will determined her path... not predestination.

 

[bunny1ohio]

Hello bunny.
I agree with you about the actual definition of free will. We all have the freedom to make a choice.

However, its the concept of free will that is false. You have the freedom to make the choice, but the choice itself is not free because there are always consequences and reactions.

As one who studies physics, this coincides with the natural law: to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Do you see what I mean?

The freedom to make the choice is what free will means. It doesn't mean that there will be no action that occurs DUE to or CAUSED BY our choice. It doesn't mean that there will be no reaction.... just that we have the freedom to make that choice and thereby determine our own REaction dependant upon the decision we make.... you're confusing free will with freedom from consequence. There is no such thing.... and consequence is not the same as will.

Will is thought and then action... consequence is what happens after the will is used.

 

[Opethian]

I disagree again... the only thing stopping me is that I choose to stay. There is nothing forcing me to remain here. If I chose to leave, I would. But it would be pointless for me to... hence I choose to stay as I am.

Yes, and your choice is the result of your body's processing of available information, which leads to one possible outcome, in this case, staying as you are.

I like my job... so I won't quit for no reason. I love my husband, therefore I wouldn't leave him for no reason. Even should there BE a reason... there is nothing that says I have to choose either option. That is strictly determined by my own thoughts.

The option you choose is only dependant on the input you get from your environment, and the structure of your body, including memories and experiences (how many times have I said this already?).

My "psyche" let's say. Yes the psyche is shaped by what occurs to us throughout our lives, and it may influence how we feel about something. But it does not dictate or force me to follow any given path. People make bad choices all the time. Did anything make them do it? I don't believe so.

Everything that they observed through their senses in combination with their genetic makeup, life experiences, and their memory, made them do so. Their choices are the result of millions of interacting causes, and this makes for only one resulting outcome.

Free will is the ability to decide for oneself... by definition

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

Another way of phrasing it is determination of one's own fate without outside compulsion or force. If you make the decision and nobody and nothing else outside of yourself (not memory or past experience) has forced that decision upon you... then it is free will. The decision is wholly your own based upon knowledge.... knowledge is not force, it is simply information.

What I mean by there not being free will, is that every choice and action can be calculated and thus predicted, if enough information is available. I mean this in a sense that the information that is available in combination with the structure of your body, which is after all the only thing that processes the information and uses this information to take decisions, are the only things that have to be taken in the equation to see what happens. Your thought processes are abstractions to your consciousness of processes going on in your body, that are governed by physical laws, which leads to only one possible outcome.

What you are suggesting is called a false dichotomy... it is a decision based on the thought that there are only two possible options... free will... or predetermination... There are other possibilities as well that have not been brought into the discussion. Had you not made certain choices in the past... you would not have the same "influences" now that "guide" your decisions. There is a randomness that you are not taking into account here. Example:

A woman goes to lunch with her friends one day.... meets a man.... falls in love with the man and gets married... they have two beautiful children and a wonderful life etc etc....

Same woman makes a different choice and decides not to go out with her friends that day...

Wrong, under the same circumstances and body structure, she will ALWAYS make the same decision.

meets a different man and falls in love with him.... and becomes an abused spouse within 3 years. What was the determining factor in this scenario? Where she went to lunch... which was a decision she made at random. The fact that that man happened to be there that day is also random... among millions of other possible factors. She didn't have to go out with said man... or marry said man... etc etc

You can't make decisions at random! They are processes that are going on in your body that are governed by physical rules => one outcome under the exact same circumstances. It would be possible if you change the environmental impulses or her body structure, that she decides not to go out with her friends, but if everything stays the same, she can't take an alternate decision.

 

[Zsr1973]

The freedom to make the choice is what free will means. It doesn't mean that there will be no action that occurs DUE to or CAUSED BY our choice. It doesn't mean that there will be no reaction.... just that we have the freedom to make that choice and thereby determine our own REaction dependant upon the decision we make.... you're confusing free will with freedom from consequence. There is no such thing.... and consequence is not the same as will.

Will is thought and then action... consequence is what happens after the will is used.

I think we are on two different sides of the same point.

It is the reactions that happen because of our choices that makes will not free. Imagine using a scan-tron test sheet. One can mark a, b, c, or d - however their decisions will be based on prior knowledge of the subject making the decision itself not free, and the cost (or result) of each decision also makes it not free, and too wrong of a decision (marking a instead of d) could lead to a wrong answer and the cost could be not getting into Harvard.

In spiritual matters, there is a mythical set of records in heaven called the Akasha Records. These are the records of all that has happened, is happening, and will happen. This implies the same scientific fact that time is not linear and the past, present, and future can all be breached. What that means regarding free will is that it isn't really free if somewhere there is already a record of what you are going to choose tomorrow. This is the reality that psychics have access to and really all of us do to a degree.

The concept of "free will" gives people a false notion that they are not responsible for their actions which makes us have a need for organized religion. That way, our actions can be blamed on either God or the devil. It was never intended for a being with "free will" to give the responsibility of his or her actions to any other than him or herself. In the ancient mystery schools, they knew there was no such thing as free will. In fact, there is really no such thing as "free", only concepts of the word free or freedom that we use to define our relationships with other things. Whether people, situations, or scientific bodies.

The slaves were "freed" yet they are still bound to the laws of America, bound to the gravity of earth, and bound to the scientific rules of physical existence. "Free" is a concept. "Free will" is a false concept that doesn't really exist.

 

[bunny1ohio]

In spiritual matters, there is a mythical set of records in heaven called the Akasha Records.

This implies the same scientific fact that time is not linear and the past, present, and future can all be breached.

What that means regarding free will is that it isn't really free if somewhere there is already a record of what you are going to choose tomorrow.

This is the reality that psychics have access to and really all of us do to a degree.

The concept of "free will" gives people a false notion that they are not responsible for their actions which makes us have a need for organized religion.

The slaves were "freed" yet they are still bound to the laws of America

Note the words I have underlined and bolded for you....mythical... meaning made up or invented... not real...

implies... not proves

that's a VERY big IF

What psychics see is one "possibility" of what can occur out of many things in the future... often these things can be changed or prevented... they are not pre-set... according to those very same psychics

I personally have no need for religion organized or otherwise.... I do take responsibility for my actions and I don't try to blame anybody or anything for what I have chosen to do.

They were freed from PHYSICAL captivity and "bondage" meaning they are no longer OWNED by another person... they choose to live in this country and to follow its laws or break them at their discretion or their choice. Nobody forces them to follow the laws.... if they don't and are caught they will be punished as a result of their choice.

You are stating that these things are a fact and therefore cannot be altered.... they are not a fact... they are a theory... theory is something unproven. Until we have the technology and capability to determine and log all these outside factors and then begin to predict people's actions by them... there is no proof and it is simply a theory. A rather odd theory, but a theory none the less

 

[cardero]

In spiritual matters, there is a mythical set of records in heaven called the Akasha Records. These are the records of all that has happened, is happening, and will happen. This implies the same scientific fact that time is not linear and the past, present, and future can all be breached. What that means regarding free will is that it isn't really free if somewhere there is already a record of what you are going to choose tomorrow. This is the reality that psychics have access to and really all of us do to a degree.

"The Books of Life work on the premise of thought, choices, and decision. Any thought you might conceive is recorded for prosperity. Any action you make claim to gets recorded as it is chosen. The books do not make the choices for you, but they do catalogue every possible reality you have, as well as the possibilities or consequences for that action. When an action has been decided on and executed, it is imprinted upon history as fact in these records."

I have heard of these records as well. It seems that even though events may be predetermined, free will is still very dependant on us/you/we/me.

 

[Zsr1973]

I am willing to agree to disagree!

What makes the myth of the Akasha records interesting is that both the bible and the Qur'aan also mention books and records existing in the heavens. The Hebrews and Arabs are decendants of those same people who wrote about the Akasha records (the Sumerians, through Abraham). Christians also believe the "Word" existed before time as we know it and will exist after time as we know it, and of course the Word is the manifestation of God's truth. Coincidence that it all sounds very familiar, isn't it?

Bunny, do you believe in "luck"?

 

[bunny1ohio]

What makes the myth of the Akasha records interesting is that both the bible and the Qur'aan also mention books and records existing in the heavens. The Hebrews and Arabs are decendants of those same people who wrote about the Akasha records (the Sumerians, through Abraham). Christians also believe the "Word" existed before time as we know it and will exist after time as we know it, and of course the Word is the manifestation of God's truth. Coincidence that it all sounds very familiar, isn't it?

Bunny, do you believe in "luck"?

First of all... no I don't believe in luck except for the saying if it wasn't for bad luck I would have none at all.... if luck is related to Karma then someone has screwed up the tally board pretty badly where I'm concerned lol.

As to the other... since the Bible and Qur'aan are both based on Abrahamic religions, why should I find it odd or coincidental that they contain some of the same things? How much do you know about the Akasha records just out of curiosity, and what they meant for the Sumerians? To them it wasn't God's word... it was the words of the gods... plural. It was passed down and "re-worded" through the Abrahamic religions who are mono-theistic to be God's word (singular). Also that is in the heavens (as in the sky, or not on this earth). So relating the Akasha records to the Abrahamic religions doesn't correlate very well other than that they are all based from the Sumerian "records" and "God knows all before it happens as well as all that has passed"... sounds like another re-wording to me ... I need more coffee... my brain hurts lol

 

[Opethian]

Oh god, why hast thou derailed my thread? :faint:

 

[mr.guy]

Oh god, why hast thou derailed my thread?

It was obviously meant to be.

 

[cardero]

Oh god, why hast thou derailed my thread? :faint:

Opethian, do you have any concerns that the existence of free will may possibly lead to GOD? For example as if free will was a gift or allowance from a Supreme BEing? I do not believe that free will does even though I believe that GOD exists.

 

[Opethian]

Opethian, do you have any concerns that the existence of free will may possibly lead to GOD? For example as if free will was a gift or allowance from a Supreme BEing? I do not believe that free will does even though I believe that GOD exists.

Well, if free will did exist, there would most certainly be need for some kind of spiritual or supernatural entity, otherwise it would be impossible for us to make choices that couldn't theoretically be predicted by science, or that aren't determined (up to a certain level, with the Heisenberg uncertainty and such). And usually supernatural or spiritual entities imply the existance of a kind of a god. Therefore I don't really understand how some people can believe in free will but don't believe in god or the supernatural. But as for me having concerns about this, I do not, because I am firm in my lack of belief in god and the supernatural, and in my lack of belief in free will.

 

[cardero]

Opethian writes: Well, if free will did exist, there would most certainly be need for some kind of spiritual or supernatural entity, otherwise it would be impossible for us to make choices that couldn't theoretically be predicted by science, or that aren't determined (up to a certain level, with the Heisenberg uncertainty and such).

Not necessarily. A lot of free will depends on the choices, decision making and the consequences of how they pertain to the individual discovering, formulating and concluding these decisions. It seems to me to be a very personal process (but I am still keeping an open mind about the scientific process you are proposing). I understand that some people base their decisions so that they do not offend their God or break any state’s laws or even just for the simple purpose that it may not be within them or maybe it is because the consequences are just too appealing or unappealing for them. There may be a set number of choices concerning a decision but there are also many other factors to consider and include.
Some of the points you bring out are interesting, it shows that you are thinking (one thing that you should never stop doing-that and composing music). Just be careful that while you are searching for this truth you do not find yourself hoping for it or that you are not just transferring faith away from one thing and putting it into another.

 

[Opethian]

Not necessarily. A lot of free will depends on the choices, decision making and the consequences of how they pertain to the individual discovering, formulating and concluding these decisions.

Well since the individual is merely a body (since we're leaving out souls and stuff at this point I presume) which is composed by reacting molecules which follow the laws of physics, all decisions could be calculated that this person makes, so he would not really have free will. Discovering is gaining new information, formulating is processing, and concluding is sending the output, and all these aspects follow laws that make sure there can be only one output under every set of circumstances and structure of the body.

It seems to me to be a very personal process (but I am still keeping an open mind about the scientific process you are proposing).

That's because we have a consciousness, which is kind of an abstraction of those chemical processes going on in our body, to a central decision taking part of our brain. It seems like some voice in our head is making the choices, but in fact it's just molecules reacting and electrical impulses going through our body.

I understand that some people base their decisions so that they do not offend their God or break any state’s laws or even just for the simple purpose that it may not be within them or maybe it is because the consequences are just too appealing or unappealing for them. There may be a set number of choices concerning a decision but there are also many other factors to consider and include.

I know, there are not just many, but infinite factors (though most of those are negligable when others are taken into consideration) to consider, but this still leads to only one possible outcome under a certain set of circumstances and structure of a body.

Some of the points you bring out are interesting, it shows that you are thinking (one thing that you should never stop doing-that and composing music). Just be careful that while you are searching for this truth you do not find yourself hoping for it or that you are not just transferring faith away from one thing and putting it into another

Yes, I'll try hard to keep doing that. I've made a promise to myself to be as intellectuelly honest as I can be. If something is discovered that proves me right, so be it. If something is discovered that proves me wrong, so be it. Just as long as I know the truth, and enough evidence is provided. I just wish I was able to better explain ideas of mine like this, because they sound much better in my head then when I write them down. Some of the reasons that I don't believe in free will are kind of abstract and I can't find a way to put them into words (the same thing with composing music, although to a lesser degree). It's even worse when I try to convey ideas through talking .

 

[Zsr1973]

First of all... no I don't believe in luck except for the saying if it wasn't for bad luck I would have none at all.... if luck is related to Karma then someone has screwed up the tally board pretty badly where I'm concerned lol.

As to the other... since the Bible and Qur'aan are both based on Abrahamic religions, why should I find it odd or coincidental that they contain some of the same things? How much do you know about the Akasha records just out of curiosity, and what they meant for the Sumerians? To them it wasn't God's word... it was the words of the gods... plural. It was passed down and "re-worded" through the Abrahamic religions who are mono-theistic to be God's word (singular). Also that is in the heavens (as in the sky, or not on this earth). So relating the Akasha records to the Abrahamic religions doesn't correlate very well other than that they are all based from the Sumerian "records" and "God knows all before it happens as well as all that has passed"... sounds like another re-wording to me ... I need more coffee... my brain hurts lol

I apologize for taking so long to reply, I am still learning to use this forum.

I am familiar with much of the Sumerian teachings. Its a good point you bring up comparing the judaic & Islamic teachings to what seems like a much different parent Sumerian teachings. That was why I mentioned it.

If it weren't for the bad translations (transliterations actually) of the bible, people would have a totally different concept of who or what God and his angels really are. the Hebrew word Eloheem in the bible pluralizes "God" into "Gods" right in the bible, but religious people have a ready made (unproven) answer for that, claiming god put that word in the bible like that simply because he is really powerful. So they translate a plural word into the singular English word God.

The point is that when read directly in the Hebrew and Aramic, the story of god, his angels, and the created people is actually IDENTICAL to the ancient Sumerian & Egyptian stories of the Gods. Specifically, I am talking about "At Tawrah", the 5 books of Moses.

this is the source of bad religion in the West. The source of why so much hypocracy is allowed in christianity. bad translations helping breed false beliefs within true wisdom.

I asked about luck because scientifically, it does not exist. (tell that to me when I'm scratching off a lottery ticket though!) Luck only describes variables that are beyond human comprehension at this time.

 

[michel]

[/size]

Isn't that a nice sentence and also exactly the way we would like to see it..?

It could be seen to be; on the other hand, I am supporting it as a fact, because that helps my argument, whereas, you see it as incorrect, because it is a disadvantage to your argument.

this is where most of your thoughts bounce with ours micheal. You are thinking to the genetics and there it stops. But it doesn't stop there.. It's the entire process that counts with it. so the time that you bumped your knee when you were 5 years old is also part f the way you're thinking now..

It doesn't affect the way I see things; I am sorry if I didn't explain myself better, but obviously events that have occurred have an impact in determing how I will react in the future. I am in agreement with you there.

This is the second part where we bounce
I believe in evolution. I believe we started as one celled animals.
Evolution doesn't only take place in the body, but also in the brains. With other words, our avarage artificial intelligence is growing every day (sort of)..
Somewhere in the evolution we started making preferences. preferences can help us out. not anymore they do, but in the beginning sounds and colors for example where of other value than now.

I belive that we started from one celled animals (not that I know much about biology); I'm not sure where this point comes in. I am not advocating morality as being anything which is external to our minds. The fact that our minds change (evolve) with learning, to my mind, is proof that we have choice, or free will.

Stealing a cd can have an advantage. you now own the cd and you can listen to the cd whenever you want. However, stealing gives you disadvatage as well. the person you stole it from will be mad as he can't listen to that music anymore and will try to get it back. one person will steal a cd and gets killed over it. another person sees that and tells his son not to steal, you will get killed. another person steals 20 cd's and get away with them. he'll teach his son to steal cd's..

That one didn't work in one example I can quote from personal experience.
I actually stole from my parents. I was extremely unhappy at school, and then later in another school, and I desperately wanted attention (from my parents most likely). I think I stole a) to try and make me popular with other kids at school (I could be generous
b) I now believe I had a subconscious desire to be found out and punished.

The trouble is that I was never caught, and therefore never punished.

To this day, I am still not sure if that is because my father never noticed (unlikely), it was over a few years, and I stole cash which he brought home from a shop which they owned. He must have noticed, but nothing was ever said. Indeed, it might have been fgar better for me had he challenged me; that changes nothing though, because he didn't.

Now, obviously, there came a time when I chose not to steal; not because of any punishment, being found out, but because I recognised that it was an immoral thing to do. Surely, it would have been far more likely for me to have gone on stealing? I was never punished for it, and now that both my parents are dead, I have no way of knowing if they knew cash was missing, and that it was I who took it. But I chose to stop stealing.

 

[BucephalusBB]

I belive that we started from one celled animals (not that I know much about biology); I'm not sure where this point comes in. I am not advocating morality as being anything which is external to our minds. The fact that our minds change (evolve) with learning, to my mind, is proof that we have choice, or free will.

As we started as one celled animals, turned into swimming creature, came to land, became ape-like to humans.... where did the free will enter?? We can allready make robots learn, does that give proof they have free will?

That one didn't work in one example I can quote from personal experience.
I actually stole from my parents..... But I chose to stop stealing.

you are not thinking 'big picture' here michel
My example was not based on nowadays 'chosings', but a possible thinkingprocess in how 'chosing' got evolved.

 

[Opethian]

The fact that our minds change (evolve) with learning, to my mind, is proof that we have choice, or free will.

Why? I'd say it's more evidence for not having free will than having free will, since new information causing structural changes in the brain causing a different way of information processing cause us to take different actions than if we had not acquired the new information.

Now, obviously, there came a time when I chose not to steal;

Or, phrased differently, when your body reached a certain moment in time (due to acquisition of new information) where conditions were optimal for a change in activity patterns .

not because of any punishment, being found out, but because I recognised that it was an immoral thing to do.

And what caused you to recognise it was an immoral thing to do? Acquisition of new information, and a change in the way you perceived the act of stealing.

Surely, it would have been far more likely for me to have gone on stealing? I was never punished for it, and now that both my parents are dead, I have no way of knowing if they knew cash was missing, and that it was I who took it. But I chose to stop stealing.

Your body only took the action of stopping the stealing because a structural change (caused by new information) caused it too.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Someone posted that 'free will' takes aways ones sense of responsibility and places blame on either God or the Devil. The statement is completely untrue.
Our free will choices of the past set the course for our present circumstance, and the choices we make today, determine our future. We determine our own fate by our thoughts, feelings, words and deeds.

If someone steals something( or harms someone in any form or fashion), they may not get caught right away (or ever) for the crime itself, but karma is accurate and just. And the longer it takes for karma to balance, the bigger the *wallup* will be. Just like a weed that is plucked right away is just a minor thing, if someone let's the weeds grow, it becomes very difficult to clear them out of the garden.

Once a person understands the true concept of free will, they learn to take responsibilty for their own actions, and they learn that life is the reality that they created for themselves. They are not just accidents floating through space waiting for the next rock to hit them.