Free will

[michel]

As we started as one celled animals, turned into swimming creature, came to land, became ape-like to humans.... where did the free will enter?? We can allready make robots learn, does that give proof they have free will?


you are not thinking 'big picture' here michel
My example was not based on nowadays 'chosings', but a possible thinkingprocess in how 'chosing' got evolved.

O.K, I'll admit frankly that I don't understand what you mean by your second point.

As we started as one celled animals, turned into swimming creature, came to land, became ape-like to humans.... where did the free will enter?? We can allready make robots learn, does that give proof they have free will?

As far as that is concerned, I am not too sure what you mean either. A robot will never have free will, because it could only react in binary, and as the process of thinking would be a purely 'pre-determined set of pathways' the choice will always be predictable. This, I think is what you are saying about us humans.

An example of the predetermined 'choice' of a computer is one where a computer is programmed to design a car. Naturally, the computer will always end up with the same shape car; pleasing to the eye (programmed istruction) + offering the least resistance to air, at speed. (admitedly other points included, but that's the general Idea).

Surely the free will 'entered' into humans as our brains developped, and became complex enough to understand choice ? Thge point you make makes us humans sound like nothing much better than automatons.

 

[BucephalusBB]

A robot will never have free will, because it could only react in binary, and as the process of thinking would be a purely 'pre-determined set of pathways' the choice will always be predictable. This, I think is what you are saying about us humans.

I think too

Surely the free will 'entered' into humans as our brains developped, and became complex enough to understand choice ? Thge point you make makes us humans sound like nothing much better than automatons.

And that is exactly why most humans have such a hard time understanding the point.
Besides, nothing much better...? We are highly advanced automatons, sounds pretty cool to me

 

[uumckk16]

Opethian, I think I agree with your basic point. That everything could theoretically be predicted, because everything is cause and effect, although those causes/effects are basically limitless.

Maybe what we should do is redefine free will in a way. I still believe in free will even though I agree with you. I believe in free will as a perception. You're redefining predestination - from what I've always heard, at least, "fate" and "destiny" imply a "plan" laid out by God, and since you don't believe in God, that obviously isn't your feeling - so why can't we redefine free will? Yes the choices I make are the only choices I could possibly make but I am still making those choices. Does it matter if I was DEFINITELY going to make them or not? I still make them.

I just picked up a red pen and drew a smiley face in my planner. Why did I do that? To prove a point, and had this day restarted under the exact same circumstances, or this year, or this millenia, I would have done the exact same thing. But I still did it, I still made the choice to do it, there is a smiley face drawn in my planner now.

Someone earlier mentioned the perception idea...they said something along the lines of "is grass really green, or is that just my perception?" I agree with them. Does it matter if the grass is really green? According to our perception through our sight, it is, and that's all we can know. In the same manner, we perceive our world to be 3-dimensional. Does this mean it is ONLY 3-dimensional? No! But because I see the world to be 3-D I'm not about to go running into a wall assuming it's 2-D and therefore it won't hurt. I can only know as much as I can perceive.

So if our perception tells us we're making choices, does it matter that given the same circumstances we'd be making the same choices? Does that make us any less accountable for them?

I'm sorry to ramble, I hope I made some sort of sense.

 

[Opethian]

Maybe what we should do is redefine free will in a way. I still believe in free will even though I agree with you. I believe in free will as a perception. You're redefining predestination - from what I've always heard, at least, "fate" and "destiny" imply a "plan" laid out by God, and since you don't believe in God, that obviously isn't your feeling - so why can't we redefine free will? Yes the choices I make are the only choices I could possibly make but I am still making those choices. Does it matter if I was DEFINITELY going to make them or not? I still make them.

Yes of course, it's just that most people that believe in the free will we're talking about, judge other people, based on the actions they undertake, thinking there is some sort of inner good or inner bad, stemming from a soul or something like that, that allows us humans to take choices irrelevant of the conditions or the structure of our body. What I'm trying to do here is to let these people see that this free will is an illusion, and that they shouldn't be so judgemental of other people because they base their way of looking upon people on an illusion. I'm also trying to get them to see that pride and arrogance are useless emotions once one gets past the illusion of free will.

Someone earlier mentioned the perception idea...they said something along the lines of "is grass really green, or is that just my perception?" I agree with them. Does it matter if the grass is really green? According to our perception through our sight, it is, and that's all we can know. In the same manner, we perceive our world to be 3-dimensional. Does this mean it is ONLY 3-dimensional? No! But because I see the world to be 3-D I'm not about to go running into a wall assuming it's 2-D and therefore it won't hurt. I can only know as much as I can perceive.

So if our perception tells us we're making choices, does it matter that given the same circumstances we'd be making the same choices? Does that make us any less accountable for them?

That depends. I'd say that punishing or judging people for actions they commit is only useful when it can prevent future negative actions. The problem is that a lot of people enjoy other people to be punished and judged just because they think those people are "evil" or made "evil choices" or have a "wicked soul".

I'm sorry to ramble, I hope I made some sort of sense.

Don't worry, you have made great sense , and I hope this post is adequate in explaining why I want people to realise that free will is an illusion.

 

[uumckk16]

Yes of course, it's just that most people that believe in the free will we're talking about, judge other people, based on the actions they undertake, thinking there is some sort of inner good or inner bad, stemming from a soul or something like that, that allows us humans to take choices irrelevant of the conditions or the structure of our body. What I'm trying to do here is to let these people see that this free will is an illusion, and that they shouldn't be so judgemental of other people because they base their way of looking upon people on an illusion. I'm also trying to get them to see that pride and arrogance are useless emotions once one gets past the illusion of free will.

Well, I do believe in a soul :cover: but that's just me and that's not for this thread. I agree that the world would be a better place if people were less judgemental.

That depends. I'd say that punishing or judging people for actions they commit is only useful when it can prevent future negative actions. The problem is that a lot of people enjoy other people to be punished and judged just because they think those people are "evil" or made "evil choices" or have a "wicked soul".

I'm pretty sure I agree with what you're saying, but could you give some examples?

Don't worry, you have made great sense , and I hope this post is adequate in explaining why I want people to realise that free will is an illusion.

But as I was trying to say, a useful illusion based on our perceptions that we kind of need, just as we need to be able to say "the grass is green" without getting into arguments about logistics.

 

[Zsr1973]

Someone posted that 'free will' takes aways ones sense of responsibility and places blame on either God or the Devil. The statement is completely untrue.
Our free will choices of the past set the course for our present circumstance, and the choices we make today, determine our future. We determine our own fate by our thoughts, feelings, words and deeds.

If someone steals something( or harms someone in any form or fashion), they may not get caught right away (or ever) for the crime itself, but karma is accurate and just. And the longer it takes for karma to balance, the bigger the *wallup* will be. Just like a weed that is plucked right away is just a minor thing, if someone let's the weeds grow, it becomes very difficult to clear them out of the garden.

Once a person understands the true concept of free will, they learn to take responsibilty for their own actions, and they learn that life is the reality that they created for themselves. They are not just accidents floating through space waiting for the next rock to hit them.

Thats my point. If karma will balance a person's choices, then the choice wasn't free. There was a karmic debt.

If there is a cost for something, then it isn't free! I agree that we have been given will and are allowed to make our own choices. In that definition I agree with literal meaning of free will. But the idea of it is false because none of it was really free.

But I sense that we are actually in agreement, and I do agree with the essence of your statement.

 

[ProfLogic]

A lot of times I have now been in discussions about this concept in various threads. I do not believe in free will, since out of my studies of various courses like Biochemistry and Physics, and subsequent analysing of my own thought processes and actions, I was able to come to the insight that my actions are only determined by the structure of my body (genetic information, memories, trauma, etc...) and by the currently available information from the environment that I perceive with my senses. It seems though that I am almost alone in this view of choices and free will. I think that most people are afraid to give up this concept of free will, since it may be such a scary thought that our consciousness is just an abstraction to our senses of biochemic processes going on in our brains. To think that everything we do could theoretically be predicted may also be scary to some. To think that you can't really elevate yourself above others by the decisions you make, since this is just the result of factors that you can't influence. I think this is the main reason that most people don't want to accept this. But since most of you do believe in free will, give me some reasons why. If you think something is wrong with my way of looking at this, please also let me know.

How would you explain why people of the same background and family react differently? When you throw numbers in a hat and you are blind folded if we are predictable then some one would have guessed what we would pick. To this day, there are still mysteries of the human brain, I agree they had made a lot of research on the chemistry of the brain and what affects it, however there are always exception to the rule. If we fully understood our brains, believe me someone would have created and artificial one already. At least for me, Freewill had been used as a safeguard for someone being wrong about someone's behavior, as the bible says even god uses it as an excuse.....if you believe in that sort of stuff. My take on freewill, seems to be the energy that controls our physical being, our awareness. I have the inside story on what happens when the body dies. What happens to our awareness.......for now its a secret.....

 

[Opethian]

How would you explain why people of the same background and family react differently?

Because regardless of family and background there are always differences. Are you going to tell me that people of the same family have the exact same genes and that people of the same background have the exact same experiences? I think not.

When you throw numbers in a hat and you are blind folded if we are predictable then some one would have guessed what we would pick.

No, because to be able to predict something that is predictable, you need an equation that is capable to make these predictions, and you need an enormous amount of information to have processed. You can't oversimplify the complexity of even such a small action. Yet its complexity does not change its predictability.

To this day, there are still mysteries of the human brain, I agree they had made a lot of research on the chemistry of the brain and what affects it, however there are always exception to the rule.

There are no exceptions to the rule, only lack of knowledge and information to be able to make accurate predictions with.

If we fully understood our brains, believe me someone would have created and artificial one already.

I know, but have I ever pretended we already fully understand how our brains work?

At least for me, Freewill had been used as a safeguard for someone being wrong about someone's behavior, as the bible says even god uses it as an excuse.....if you believe in that sort of stuff. My take on freewill, seems to be the energy that controls our physical being, our awareness. I have the inside story on what happens when the body dies. What happens to our awareness.......for now its a secret.....

Our awareness is just the result of our brains connection to our senses.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

So are you saying that because you can 'predict' someone's choice, that they don't have free will? I could ride my bike to the store, or I could walk, or I could drive my car. You could 'predict' what my choice might be based on how I feel physically, how much time I have and what the weather is like. But what if you predict I will take my car because it's raining, and I 'choose' to take a nice walk in the rain? While you might have made well thought out prediction, your prediction will not effect my will to choose.

 

[Yerda]

How would you explain why people of the same background and family react differently?

It's determined.

 

[uumckk16]

So are you saying that because you can 'predict' someone's choice, that they don't have free will? I could ride my bike to the store, or I could walk, or I could drive my car. You could 'predict' what my choice might be based on how I feel physically, how much time I have and what the weather is like. But what if you predict I will take my car because it's raining, and I 'choose' to take a nice walk in the rain? While you might have made well thought out prediction, your prediction will not effect my will to choose.

I don't think that's his point. I think what he's saying is that if someone were to know every single factor in the universe, and every single factor in your life, they could predict exactly what you would do every minute of the day. You choose to take a walk in the rain, but with a full understanding of all of these factors, that could have been predicted.

 

[michel]

I think too



And that is exactly why most humans have such a hard time understanding the point.
Besides, nothing much better...? We are highly advanced automatons, sounds pretty cool to me

But that's the point; we are not automatoms.

 

[BucephalusBB]

But that's the point; we are not automatoms.

well, that's exactly what I am countering isn't it?

Why are you so sure we are not?

 

[Opethian]

I don't think that's his point. I think what he's saying is that if someone were to know every single factor in the universe, and every single factor in your life, they could predict exactly what you would do every minute of the day. You choose to take a walk in the rain, but with a full understanding of all of these factors, that could have been predicted.

Yes that's what I mean.

 

[logician]

Randomness in nature and in our lives controls a lot of our outcomes , we have the ability to choose outcomes, but many times get locked into a regular pattern of action that gets broken occasionally by a random event.

 

[lasthope]

No free will? Name your cliche. What goes around comes around, every dog has its day, you made your bed now lie in it, you reep what what you sow, for every action there is an equal or greater reaction, etc... The comments posted here have made me think a lot about the topic and I do see where some of you are coming from. Although I do believe that, to an extent, you "get what you deserve", I still have to believe in free will. I agree with one of the earlier comments that free will keeps people going. Knowing that we decide our own destiny is a reason to wake up every morning and strive to do better. Thinking that my whole life is predetermined would put me in a state of depression that would be dang near suicidal.

 

[bigvindaloo]

Whatever you consider as free will, you are absolutely tied to the consequences of your own actions. Why are you not tied to the consequences of your past actions? Shouldn't these influence your current exercise of free will? All this proves is that you construct your own reality as best suits you. Are you are universe unto itself. Aren't you in truth an artifact of life within a cultural context? How much free will do you possess? Free will implies the ability to choose amonst options? How much are you are player in formulating your own destiny as opposed to being a follower choosing amonst options?

(I exclude from this debate evidence from psychology demonstrating free will as a belief without foundation

 

[cardero]

I am still trying to figure how individual style, imagination, creativity figures into free will or if it even does figure in.

 

[lasthope]

Aren't you in truth an artifact of life within a cultural context?

Ummmm, complex questions scare me.

How much free will do you possess?

I wasn't aware that there was a free will cap. I suppose a lot.

How much are you are player in formulating your own destiny as opposed to being a follower choosing amonst options?

Don't you formulate your destiny by choosing from the options that you have? Thats all we can do. Thats all we have. Options. The only way to do anything is by utilizing our options.

(I exclude from this debate evidence from psychology demonstrating free will as a belief without foundation

I don't require evidence from psychology to tell me that I don't have a choice of whether I am going to eat cereal or pop tarts for breakfast because it was predetermined 8000 years ago that on the morning of june 7th I was going to wake up and decide to skip breakfast or that my biological make-up has already decided for me that my breakfast is whatever my wife cooks because her biological make-up has pre-determined that she will make bacon and eggs and I don't have the free will to choose not to eat it.

NO, I have faith and comfort in the fact that I can ignore my wifes bacon and eggs and have a snickers bar instead because i choose to, not because it is what destiny has already decided for me.

 

[Opethian]

Randomness in nature and in our lives controls a lot of our outcomes , we have the ability to choose outcomes, but many times get locked into a regular pattern of action that gets broken occasionally by a random event.

I don't think you understand the concept I'm trying to texplain. We don't have a real ability to choose outcomes, because what our choices will be in any situation is already determined before we make the choices, because all that influences that choice is the structure of our body and the input we get from our environment at that time. Choosing is just an abstraction of biochemical processes going on in the brain, processes that are ruled by the laws of physics, by the rules of the universe, that are set. Which means your choice is determined, and thus not a "free will choice" as you would look upon it.