Freemasonry

[grandsecretary]

What is the general philosophy of your religion?
My religion is as a Johannine Christian. We also have members who are Petrine Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and we would allow Christian Buddhists as well. We all believe in one God the Creator and Preserver of all things, and the immortality of souls.

It is also, partly, my living. I am an employee of The Grand Lodge of All England. I enjoy being a Free Mason, very much indeed.

I have travelled to many parts of the world as a Free Mason, and I have met many people that I would never have had the opportunity to meet if it were not for my being a Free Mason.

Do many freemasons have this experience?
Oh Yes, definitely.

Do freemasons tend to be "well connected" (even across distances), as a result of their brotherhood?
It's not to do with being well connected but you certainly do meet some very interesting people. The object is to meet with people who share the same interests and values.

Or is this mostly due to your position in freemasonry.
My job does bring me into contact with many walks of life that otherwise I would not be in contact with, but that is due to my work as Grand Secretary. We only have one of those.

My sons are both Free Masons and this provides us with a unique relationship and a special bond.

That's nice for your sons.
My younger son (18 yrs) is still a Céli Dé (a novice) training for the Priesthood. My older son (37 yrs) is already An Céli Dé, just like me.

What of your daughters?
I have one daughter (34 yrs). She is a Céli Dé too.

Why are they excluded from your religion?
They are not. Céli Dé women have a different role from the Priesthood.

 

[blackout]

Ok. So if I understand, your freemasonry is different than the "usual"freemasonry.

It is a christian religion.
(I do not know what Celi De is... or how it differs from "usual"christianity.)

Females may join your lodges,
attend your meetings,
and participate as equal members,
privy to all "secrets".
Though they must carry out/embody 'female roles'
(as defined by your religion)
Females cannot be preists.
(this does indeed sound very christian. )


Please correct me if I have misunderstood.

 

[blackout]

Lastly for now,

Why freemasonry as opposed to any other christian church?

And which christian church most represents your own religion.
and.... is your lodge in fact a church?

 

[logician]

I am very sorry logician but I am totally confused by your posting. Would you please be kind enough to let us know what Masonic "services" that you have witnessed, and where?

Many thanks.

The services I've seen have been at funerals, and it reminded me of a group of militaristic Jesus freaks.

 

[idea]

Too big a question. Please take some time to read our website. Our Free Masonry is pre-Davidic and dates from time immemorial.

Genuine Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry is firmly rooted in the Druidic/Celtic Christian/Joannine Templar tradition, and is not connected in any way with The Enlightenment philosophy "Deus Sive Natura", or the Invisible College of the Rosicrucian Brotherhood. It is a Gnostic tradition and we are thinking of making a love of cricket a requirement for membership.

I know some pre-Davidic Templar stuff too. (see my relig)
Ifyou want to know what I know, it will take a little over a year... .
I agree, you know part of it. Just part though.



On another note, what I love about the "free" masons.
If you want to be one, ask one.

They will never ask you to join - the OP is the closest to missionary work they will do. They want members who join because you seek them out, not because they seek you out. You don't join out of obligation, because someone talked you into it. You join of your own "free" will. of your own initiative. I love that. If I were male, I might think about asking one.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I know some pre-Davidic Templar stuff too. (see my relig)
Ifyou want to know what I know, it will take a little over a year... .
I agree, you know part of it. Just part though.



On another note, what I love about the "free" masons.
If you want to be one, ask one.

They will never ask you to join - the OP is the closest to missionary work they will do. They want members who join because you seek them out, not because they seek you out. You don't join out of obligation, because someone talked you into it. You join of your own "free" will. of your own initiative. I love that. If I were male, I might think about asking one.

He's yet to say anything of any real substance about his group though....

as he claimed he would in the OP

Its like watchign david copper field discuss beer making

 

[grandsecretary]

Quote=UltraViolet;1697674

Ok. So if I understand, your freemasonry is different than the usual "freemasonry".
Yes

It is a christian religion
No. I am a Johannine Christian AND An Céli Dé.

The requirement for the Masonic Priesthood is male only, a belief in one God the Creator and Preserver of all things, and the immortality of souls. We have members who are Petrine Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs. We attend our lodge meetings AND our non-Masonic churches, mosques and temples.

Free Masonrie is where all men are called to the Priesthood, inspired by God, to instruct men. It is the centre and source from which radiates the whole system of organized civil and ecclesiastical knowledge and practice, exerting a high standard of religion, justice and patriotism, and a code of moral teaching that will never cease to influence national character.

Females may join your lodges
No.
attend your meetings
No
and participate as equal members
No
privy to all "secrets".
No
Though they must carry out/embody 'female roles'
No
Females cannot be priests
Correct

Please correct me if I have misunderstood
I have done so.

 

[Breathe]

Grandsecretary, may I ask what you believe as a Céli Dé?
Edit: Or is that just a fancy way of saying "Mason"?

 

[grandsecretary]

Lastly for now,

Why freemasonry as opposed to any other christian church?

And which christian church most represents your own religion.
and.... is your lodge in fact a church?

No, and that is the whole point. It is a religion that is wholly compatible with the religious beliefs of many Churches. Our priesthood pre-dates other Churches. This will explain it to some degree:

"With the foundation of the monastery of Tallaght by St. Maelruain in 769 A.D. we have a more reliable record of Tallaght’s early history. The monastery was a centre of learning and piety and was particularly associated with the Céli Dé spiritual reform movement. It was such an important institution that it and the monastery at Finglas were known as the “two eyes of Ireland”. St. Aengus, an Ulsterman, was one of the most illustrious of the Céli Dé and devoted himself to the religious life. Wherever he went he was accompanied by a band of followers who distracted him from his devotions. He secretly travelled to the monastery at Tallaght where he was not known and enrolled as a lay brother. He remained unknown for many years until his identity was discovered by Maeilruain. (SOURCE: South Dublin County History, Local Studies Collection, The County Library, Tallaght, Dublin, Eire)

A Free Masons lodge is a centre of learning and piety. We are also lay brothers in our various Churches.

In the old times we were monastic and hermitic. We did not have what you might call "group premises" in which we worshipped God.

These were our beehive shaped lodges, where we worshipped God, alone.

We have moved on since then, but membership of the Grand Lodge is secret. Nobody knows who our members are, except our members. We worship God alone.

 

[grandsecretary]

Grandsecretary, may I ask what you believe as a Céli Dé?
Edit: Or is that just a fancy way of saying "Mason"?

No it is not the same.

We all believe in one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things; the immortality of souls; and in man's high origin and inevitable destiny.

We are in danger here of being lead down a blind alley by getting stuck in history. We do not use the term Céli Dé within the Grand Lodge. As I have explained, we have moved on from our history. We became simply Free Masons when we received the Charter of York from King Athelstan in AD 926 although it is true that the some Grand Masters were Johannine Christians, and for many years up until the early 16th century. Not any more.

Today, 1083 years on from The Charter of York, we are all simply Fellows of the Ancient and Honourable Society and Fraternity of Free Masons meeting since time immemorial in the City of York. The Grand Lodge at York is the original exponent of true, pure, and genuine Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie.

We are all on the same path leading to the Masonic Priesthood, known as a Holy Royal Arch Grand High Priest.

I happen to be a Céli Dé which is a link to our history, but that is my Church, not the Church of the Free Masons at York.

 

[grandsecretary]

The services I've seen have been at funerals, and it reminded me of a group of militaristic Jesus freaks.

That is the Moderns version of freemasonry, in America. Masonic funerals are not allowed in the Moderns version of freemasonry in England.

For both reasons (Moderns and America) I cannot comment upon it, except to say that what you witnessed is very much a minority American undertaking.

The problem that we all struggle with here in Europe, is that Americans seem to believe that whatever happens in America happens elsewhere. It doesn't. You have your peculiarities, as we all do.

 

[sandandfoam]

Aren't those bee-hive huts you posted on Skellig Michael?
Are you saying in some way the monks on the Skellig were masons?

 

[grandsecretary]

Aren't those bee-hive huts you posted on Skellig Michael?
Are you saying in some way the monks on the Skellig were masons?

Yes. They were Culdees, the forerunners of organised Free Masonrie in Anglo-Saxon Britain.

 

[grandsecretary]

I have posted this elsewhere. This was issued in order to clear up the confusion generated by American freemasonry which did mislead some people on this issue (including DeamonPainter):

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH​

DECLARATION ON MASONIC ASSOCIATIONS​

It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church’s decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous Code.

This Sacred Congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance is due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.

Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.

It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above, and this in line with the Declaration of this Sacred Congregation issued on 17 February 1981 (cf. AAS 73 1981 pp. 240-241; English language edition of L’Osservatore Romano, 9March 1981).

In an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II approved and ordered the publication of this Declaration which had been decided in an ordinary meeting of this Sacred Congregation.

Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,
26 November 1983.

Joseph Card. RATZINGER
Prefect

+ Fr. Jerome Hamer, O.P.
Titular Archbishop of Lorium
Secretary

I doubt that the then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger has changed his position on this issue now that he is the "Supreme Pontiff".

ISLAM takes a similar position, even in Saudi Arabia:

FREEMASONRY AND THE MUSLIM FAITH​

The Islamic Jurisdictional College

Possibly the most influential body in promulgating and interpreting Islamic Law is the Islamic Jurisdictional College (IJC). At its meeting on 15 July 1978, it issued an opinion concerning “The Freemasons’ Organization” as follows:

After complete research concerning this organization, based on written accounts from many sources, we have determined that:

• Freemasonry is a clandestine organization, which conceals or reveals its system, depending on the circumstances. Its actual principles are hidden from members, except for chosen members of its higher degrees.
• The members of the organization, worldwide, are drawn from men without preference for their religion, faith or sect.
• The organization attracts members on the basis of providing personal benefits. It traps men into being politically active, and its aims are unjust.
• New members participate in ceremonies of different names and symbols, and are frightened from disobeying its regulations and orders.
• Members are free to practice their religion, but only members who are atheists are promoted to its higher degrees, based on how much they are willing to serve its dangerous principles and plans.
• It is a political organization. It has served all revolutions, military and political transformations. In all dangerous changes a relation to this organization appears either exposed or veiled.
• It is a Jewish Organization in its roots. Its secret higher international administrative board are Jews and it promotes Zionist activities.
• Its primary objectives are the distraction of all religions and it distracts Muslims from Islam.
• It tries to recruit influential financial, political, social, or scientific people to utilize them. It does not consider applicants it cannot utilize. It recruits kings, prime ministers, high government officials and similar individuals.
• It has branches under different names as a camouflage, so people cannot trace its activities, especially if the name of “Freemasonry” has opposition. These hidden branches are known as Lions, Rotary and others. They have wicked principles that completely contradict the rules of Islam. There is a clear relationship between Freemasonry, Judaism and International Zionism. It has controlled the activities of high Arab officials in the Palestinian problem. It has limited their duties, obligations and activities for the benefit of Judaism and International Zionism.

Given that Freemasonry involves itself in dangerous activities, it is a great hazard, with wicked objectives, the Jurisdictional Synod determines that Freemasonry is a dangerous, destructive organization. Any Muslim, who affiliates with it, knowing the truth of its objectives, is an infidel to Islam.

I believe that this is now crystal clear?

 

[sandandfoam]

Yes. They were Culdees, the forerunners of organised Free Masonrie in Anglo-Saxon Britain.

According to what source(s)?

 

[grandsecretary]

I know some pre-Davidic Templar stuff too. (see my relig)
Ifyou want to know what I know, it will take a little over a year... .
I agree, you know part of it. Just part though.



On another note, what I love about the "free" masons.
If you want to be one, ask one.

They will never ask you to join - the OP is the closest to missionary work they will do. They want members who join because you seek them out, not because they seek you out. You don't join out of obligation, because someone talked you into it. You join of your own "free" will. of your own initiative. I love that. If I were male, I might think about asking one.

I am afraid that recruitment is now, very much, the name of the game. The Moderns now wear Masonic rings on their fingers, Masonic pins in their lapels, have Masonic bumper stickers on their cars saying "If you want to be one ask one".

This is blatant advertising in order to generate enquiries. In England we used to have ice cream salesmen who cycled round the streets ringing a bell and shouting out "Stop me and buy one".

This is the same system of marketing. It's a great pity.

 

[grandsecretary]

According to what source(s)?

Many, many sources. Here are just a few:

"The Druidical College of Derry was converted into a Culdee Monastery. About the year 561 Columba and twelve companions left Ireland to build the Monastery of Icolmkill, and Masonic legend assigns the lectures of Harodim to this Monastery; they founded Colleges at Govan and Kilwinning." (SOURCE: The Druids and the Politics of Celtic Scholarship by John Toland 1670-1722)

"From a Masonic document now in my possession, I can prove that no very long time ago the Culdees of York were Freemasons, that they constituted the Grand Lodge of England, and that they held their meetings in the Crypt under the great Cathedral of that city. The circular chapter-house did very well for ordinary business, but the Secret Mysteries were carried on in the crypts. The Lodge, which was the Grand Lodge of All England, had been held under the Cathedral in the Crypt at York." (SOURCE: Anacalypsis Vol. 1, p. 718 by Godfrey Higgins 1833-1836)

"This church and the civilization introduced by the Romans were swept away by the Picts and Saxons, and the members, called Culdees, were compelled to hide in the wilderness of Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and the small islands between Great Britain and Ireland; chiefly in Anglesey and Iona, where they preserved their Apostolic institutions, which were modeled after the most ancient Christian church, which, it is well known, was the secret or Masonic form.

"In England they occur nowhere but at St Peter's, in York, as mentioned above. At York, Athelstane found them, and gave them his friendship and protection.

"This sect was first spoken of in connection with the Masonic society by Ignatius Aurelius Fessler, a distinguished Masonic writer of Germany. (SOURCE: p.369, Masonic Eclectic or Gleanings from the Harvest Field of Masonic Literature, Part 2 by John W. Simons)

"ICOLMKILL - An island situated near the Hebrides, to the south; once the seat of the Order of the Culdees, and containing the ruins of a monastery of St Columba, founded A.D. 565. It was here, according to tradition, that the rite of Heredom originated." (SOURCE: The Royal Masonic Cyclopaedia of History, Rites, Symbolism, and Biography by Kenneth R.H. MacKenzie, publidhed by J.W. Boulton, New York, 1877)

"It is more than probable that the peculiarities of the Culdee system arose from the engraftation of Druidical beliefs upon the Christian faith. Many learned writers have sought to derive Free Masonry both from Druidical and Culdee establishment. The following may be pointed out at random:- The custom of symbolising Craft officers by the sun and the moon; for the Arch Druid bore the sun and crescent moon on his head dress, whilst the Bard was designated by the moon, equally the tonsure of a Culdee Monk went from ear to ear, in crescent, as opposed to the coronial tonsure of the Romans [see picture of St Columba above]. A Culdee origin has also been claimed for the Templars." (SOURCE: The Arcane Schools, a Review of their Origin and Antiquity with a History of Freemasonry by John Yarker, Belfast 1909)

"The Culdees of York was the name borne by the Canons Regular of St Peter's of York about AD 925." St Peter's of York, York Minster: Cathedral and Metropolitical Church of St Peter in York (SOURCE: p.615, Volume V07, Encyclopaedia Brittanica 11th edition, 1911)

"The Culdees were artisans. They were also married, although living under quasi masonic rule. In 924 the English King Athelstane, being to set forth on a campaign against Constantine, King of Scotland, passed through York, where he found the Culdees in possession of the monastery and Church of St Peter. Having ordered their prayers for his success and returned victorious, he confirmed them in many important privileges.

"The circumstantial traditions of the period have it that from the congregations of the Culdees at York arose the early Masonic lodges of Britain to which King Athelstane, at the instigation of a member of his family, granted franchises or charters in 934.

"As the York charter informs us, the Greeks and the Romans already regarded architecture as a great art and remarkable science which, as such, should be faithfully kept and that so great was King Athelstane impressed with the superior knowledge of these monastics in collision with Rome that he regulated their separate existence.

"The history of architecture, given in the York charter, proves that its compilers possessed the debris, disassociated from the historical facts, of the ancient synthesis.

"They were the most learned men of Europe in that epoch of universal ignorance. Their quotations of the Phoenicians, Hermes, Euclid, Ninus, Athens, Pythagorus, Vitruvius, Archimedes and others fill us with astonishment considering the importance of these citations.

Can it, indeed, have been the Culdees who carried the sciences of antiquity over the black gulf of mediaeval disregard?" (SOURCE: Ancient Freemasonry: An Introduction to Masonic Archeology, The Culdees as Early Masons, by Frank Higgins, New York, 1919)

The Culdees of York were among the guardians of the Masonic tradition in the tenth century, and the Old Charges tell us that an assembly of Masons was held at York during the reign of King Athelstan, when a reorganization of the Craft took place. (SOURCE: A New Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry (Ars Magna Latomorum) and of Cognate Instituted Mysteries: Their Rites, Literature, and History by Arthur Edward Waite, 1921)

"At their peak the Culdees were most prominent in Scotland where they had monasteries in St. Andrews, Dunkeld and Lochleven. They had members also in Ireland, but it is the body which established itself at York which most concerns us. These particular members of the order certainly interested themselves a great deal with the masons who were engaged in the building of the first Minster at York, of which they were in charge in the days of King Athelstan. Athelstan, son of Edward the Elder and grandson of Alfred the Great, was king between 925 & 941 AD. Himself a worshipper at York in the years around 936, he gave the Culdees certain grants of land as a thanks offering for his successes in battle, notably in subduing parts of Cornwall and Wales, and in 937, defeating the combined forces of the Welsh, Scots and Danes at Bruananburg. It is also reputed in the Old Masonic Charges that he granted a charter to the masons to hold an assembly every year." (SOURCE: The Roots of Freemasonry by Trevor Jenkins, Nautilus Lodge 4259, United Grand Lodge of England)

"In England we find them (sic Culdees) as officiating clergy in the Cathedral Church of S. Peter at York during the reign of King Athelstan, who was so closely linked with English Masonic tradition." (SOURCE: Ancient Mystic Rites, p.118, by Charles Webster Leadbetter, 1926)

"Culdees are recorded in church documents as officiating at St Peter in York until AD 939. According to the same church authorities, the Canons of York were called "Culdees" as late as the reign of Henry II (AD 1133-1189) (SOURCE: The Traditions of Glastonbury by E. Raymond, Capt, MA, AIA, FSA Scot.)

"The Coli Dei are also included in the spiritual line of descent from the builders of the Temple of Solomon, the line of the Essenes, the Gnostics, even the Manichaens and the Ismalis. They were established at York in England, at Iona in Scotland, in Wales, and in Ireland; their favourite symbol was the dove, the feminine symbol of the Holy Spirit. In this context, it is not surprising to find Druidism intermingled with their tradition and the poems of Taliesin integrated in their corpus. The epic of the Round Table and the Quest for the Holy Grail have likewise been interpreted as referring to the rights of the Coli Dei that is assigned the formation of the Scottish knighthood whose seat is typified by the mysterious sanctuary of Kilwinning, under the shadow of Mount Heredom in the extreme north of Scotland." (SOURCE: pages 150 & 151, The Templar Papers: ancient mysteries, secret societies, and the Holy Grail by Oddvar Olsen, 2006)

I hope that this helps.

 

[sandandfoam]

I appreciate your taking the time.
I have never heard of Culdees before. From your point of view is what would normally be called Celtic Christianity interchangeable with Culdees. Are they different titles for the same thing?

 

[grandsecretary]

I appreciate your taking the time.
I have never heard of Culdees before. From your point of view is what would normally be called Celtic Christianity interchangeable with Culdees. Are they different titles for the same thing?

You are very welcome and now you know why I take such time and care. It is a major element of my job description to change public and Church opinion so that they may recognise genuine Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie and separate it from the quasi-Masonic Moderns system that is, in fact, irreligious and grossly offensive to the established Faiths and Churches.

This remains a difficult and long term job.

 

[grandsecretary]

I appreciate your taking the time.
I have never heard of Culdees before. From your point of view is what would normally be called Celtic Christianity interchangeable with Culdees. Are they different titles for the same thing?

Sorry I missed it. They are one and the same.

Celtic Christians
Céile Dé (Gaelic)
Culdees (English)
Culdei (Gallic)
Coli dei (Latin)

Culdees were converted Druids. They retained many Druidic beliefs and traditions especially a reverence for Sacred stones. Free Stone Masons. Hence the tradition amongst Stonemasons to place their marks on stones when building a Sacred edifice, such as a Cathedral, Abbey, Church or Temple.