Freewill and Volition

[AK4]

+++++++++++++++

That's right: Everlasting Righteousness returned. As I can see, you didn't get the point. Who is Everlasting Righteousness? That's the Almighty God Who returned to His People. What did you think?

Now, with regards to the stone which the bulders rejected, it's Israel, which the empire-builders thought unworthy of a place in their worldly plans. Then, it ended up by being the cornerstone of the building. Let's be serious! How could it be a dead man already two thousand years old? You think it's talking about Jesus because the guy who wrote that gospel plagiarized from Psalm and applied it to Jesus. Use your commonsense for once! :sorry1:

Ben

Im sorry for this but it must be said.

How can you (i wont say all the Jews and the Judaism religion because I hope they dont think like you) have the audacity, arrogance and pompous attitude to believe that its God who returns to anyone. Find me one scripture that says He will return to anyone. No its the exact opposite! Mankind will HAVE TO RETURN TO HIM. I hope all the Jews dont feel and think the way you do.

Ne 1:9 -but if you return to me and obey my commands, then even if your exiled people are at the farthest horizon, I will gather them from there and bring them to the place I have chosen as a dwelling for my Name.'

Did God stray from the Jews to where He has to return to them or was it the other way around? Does God return to you and obey your commands? Such arrogance!!

Oh i found one...

Jer 12:15 And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return, and have compassion on them, and will bring them again, every man to his heritage, and every man to his land. 16 And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of my people, to swear by my name, The LORD liveth; as they taught my people to swear by Baal; then shall they be built in the midst of my people. 17 But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD.

Now did this happen with the Jews? Yes right after they crucified Jesus. Now was Everlasting Righteousness (God) with them? Yes. What was Jesus upbraiding the pharisees about? The way they kept the law! So what did God do since they didnt listen to this prophet/teacher? Utterly plucked up and destroyed that nation. So now that the nation of Isreal is back, and as you propose Everlasting Righteousness has returned to them, are they follow the words of Jesus? Most likely not (some may be). So what will happen again then? Im no prophet but if what wasnt in the NT about Jesus returning, my guess would be....17 But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD.

Let me entertain your preposterous statement. Everlasting Righteousness "returned" to you guys and then again, you all get rejected/ejected from Him. Is He going to "RETURN" you guys again only for yall to reject Him again so He can "return" to yall again. See how ludicris your thoughts are. Of course you dont.:slap:

Lets talk about this "dead man" you reject. "Oh He was a great teacher and prophet but you know, He didnt do all the things that were said in the gospels because its just a fable that Paul and his cronies made up". "He didnt come back to life and is spirit. Hes just dead like all the other prophets that said bad stuff would happen to the Jews. Just another person who we didnt listen to. But Everlasting Righteousness will "return" to us. No why should we return to Him and obey His commands?". "Jesus didnt fulfill all the OT prophesies of a Messiah. See Hes just another dead man."

He is just another prophet that yall rejected. Who fore told that the temple would be destroyed. Its exactly one of the reasons why God casted you guys away from Him. The Jews are so stuck in the physical rituals and cant see spiritual.

Ec 11:5 - As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all. Isa 31:3 - Now the Egyptians are men, and not God; and their horses flesh, and not spirit. When the LORD shall stretch out his hand, both he that helpeth shall fall, and he that is holpen shall fall down, and they all shall fail together.
Deuteronomy 18:15-22 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Did He not predict the destruction of the temple? "Oh only some of whats written in the gospels is true".

:banghead3 Me use common sense? Well i think God did this to me :slap: one day and i started using it, but as you for you, you must have ducked when He swung.

 

[Ben Masada]

Im sorry for this but it must be said.

+++Ben: - Oh no, don't be sorry. Go right ahead. We are a Suffering Servant.

How can you (i wont say all the Jews and the Judaism religion because I hope they dont think like you) have the audacity, arrogance and pompous attitude to believe that its God who returns to anyone. Find me one scripture that says He will return to anyone. No its the exact opposite! Mankind will HAVE TO RETURN TO HIM. I hope all the Jews dont feel and think the way you do.

+++Ben: - One scripture only? If you had not found yourself one, I would give you a few. What I wonder is that after you found what you asked for, you didn't return to remove the above paragrahph. But that's okay. We are the ones called the Suffering Servant.

Ne 1:9 -but if you return to me and obey my commands, then even if your exiled people are at the farthest horizon, I will gather them from there and bring them to the place I have chosen as a dwelling for my Name.'

Did God stray from the Jews to where He has to return to them or was it the other way around? Does God return to you and obey your commands? Such arrogance!!

+++Ben: - Yes sir, God did stray from the Jews more than once. And when He did, it was catastrophic.


Oh i found one...

Jer 12:15 And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return, and have compassion on them, and will bring them again, every man to his heritage, and every man to his land.

+++Ben: - Now, you owe us or me an apology for the first paragraph. But even if you are not big enough for that, don't waste your sleep on this because I have forgiven you already. You, like the people on that afternoon on the Calvary, don't know what you are talking about.

16 And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of my people, to swear by my name, The LORD liveth; as they taught my people to swear by Baal; then shall they be built in the midst of my people. 17 But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD.

+++Ben: - Yes, God utterly plucked up Israel the Ten Tribes, and destroyed that nation for good.

Now did this happen with the Jews? Yes right after they crucified Jesus.

+++Ben: - This only proves that Jesus had no Messianic qualifications. Why do I say so? Because according to Isaiah 11:12, the main characteristic of a Messianic leader is to gather the Jewish People from the four corners of the earth back to Israel. With Jesus the People were expelled to the four corners of the earth.

Now was Everlasting Righteousness (God) with them? Yes. What was Jesus upbraiding the pharisees about?

+++Ben: - Jesus never upbraided the Pharisees. Those lies were interpolated by the antisemitic Gentiles who wrote the gospels.

The way they kept the law! So what did God do since they didnt listen to this prophet/teacher? Utterly plucked up and destroyed that nation.

+++Ben: - That God plucked up the nation for a long exile is true, but He did not destroy it. We are back, aren't we? I can't help but detecting jealousy in your wish God had destroyed the Jewish nation. Sorry, but that's what you transpire.

So now that the nation of Isreal is back, and as you propose Everlasting Righteousness has returned to them, are they follow the words of Jesus?

+++Ben: - Yes, read Matthew 5:17-19. That's what Jesus came to confirm to the letter: The Law and the Prophets. Judaism in a word, which was the faith of Jesus. You are the one who doesn't listen to him.

Most likely not (some may be). So what will happen again then? Im no prophet but if what wasnt in the NT about Jesus returning, my guess would be....17 But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD.

+++Ben: - You have forgotten the second reason for exiles: So that we be sent forth to the Gentiles with the purpose to bring the knowledge of God to the world. Don't forget that Jesus said that we, the Jews, are the light of the world. (Mat. 5:14) He did not say we have but we are the light of the world. What one has can be taken away. What one is he is no matter what. Therefore, at home or in exile we never cease being light unto the world.

Let me entertain your preposterous statement. Everlasting Righteousness "returned" to you guys and then again, you all get rejected/ejected from Him. Is He going to "RETURN" you guys again only for yall to reject Him again so He can "return" to yall again. See how ludicris your thoughts are. Of course you dont.:slap:

+++Ben: - Take it easy, will yah? God does not need you to defend Him. Don't take it too hard at heart what's going on between us and God. We have a relationship like the one between two lovers that when apart from each other, dream the whole time with getting together again.

Lets talk about this "dead man" you reject. "Oh He was a great teacher and prophet but you know, He didnt do all the things that were said in the gospels because its just a fable that Paul and his cronies made up". "He didnt come back to life and is spirit. Hes just dead like all the other prophets that said bad stuff would happen to the Jews. Just another person who we didnt listen to. But Everlasting Righteousness will "return" to us. No why should we return to Him and obey His commands?". "Jesus didnt fulfill all the OT prophesies of a Messiah. See Hes just another dead man."

+++Ben: - Well my friend, I know you expect a different reaction, but I am sorry to agree with you. Jesus has been dead for two thousand years. If it were not for Paul indeed, we would not be having this conversation.

He is just another prophet that yall rejected. Who fore told that the temple would be destroyed. Its exactly one of the reasons why God casted you guys away from Him. The Jews are so stuck in the physical rituals and cant see spiritual.

+++Ben: - About the destruction of the Temple, not as a vote against Jesus credibility as a Prophet, but the political situation in his days was so predictable of what could happened, that to foretell the destruction of the Temple anyone could. It would not be the first time anyways.


Deuteronomy 18:15-22 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

+++Ben: - And of course you believe that he was Jesus. "Like unto Moses." Moses was a legislator; Jesus was not. You claim Jesus was son of God; Moses was not. You claim Jesus was the Messiah; Moses was not. So, "like unto Moses" in what sense? Do want to know who was he? Joshuah, okay? Let's not add to what is written. (Deut. 4:2)

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

+++Ben: - If you do believe he was Jesus, Who commanded him to confirm Judaism to the letter in Matthew 5:17-19? God. Why don't you listen to him?

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Did He not predict the destruction of the temple? "Oh only some of whats written in the gospels is true".

+++Ben: - Do you see what kind of trouble you will be about to for not listening to that Prophet like unto Moses?

:banghead3 Me use common sense? Well i think God did this to me :slap: one day and i started using it, but as you for you, you must have ducked when He swung.

+++Ben: - Okay my friend go on breaking your head against the concrete of ignorance until you get some sense into it. Of the other nations God will make an
end, but of the Jews He will only chastise as we deserve.

Ben :clap

 

[AK4]

+++Ben: - Okay my friend go on breaking your head against the concrete of ignorance until you get some sense into it. Of the other nations God will make an
end, but of the Jews He will only chastise as we deserve.

Ben :clap

I would comment on your post but like you, i will avoid answering it. Its funny I should do as you do AND Only accept only some of the scriptures from the OT and accept all the NT. But no, God did give me eyes to see and ears to hear His whole Word, OT AND NT. Not to only accept partial. Thus you are fufilling the words of Ezekiel perfectly...

Eze 12:2 -"Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.
And Paul

Ro 11:8 - as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

Now disregard Paul and partially dismiss Ezekiel again.

Isaiah 42:18-25 18 "Hear, you deaf; look, you blind, and see! 19 Who is blind but my servant, and deaf like the messenger I send? Who is blind like the one committed to me, blind like the servant of the Lord? 20 You have seen many things, but have paid no attention; your ears are open, but you hear nothing." 21 It pleased the Lord for the sake of his righteousness to make his law great and glorious. 22 But this is a people plundered and looted, all of them trapped in pits or hidden away in prisons. They have become plunder, with no one to rescue them; they have been made loot, with no one to say, "Send them back." 23 Which of you will listen to this or pay close attention in time to come? 24 Who handed Jacob over to become loot, and Israel to the plunderers? Was it not the Lord, against whom we have sinned? For they would not follow his ways; they did not obey his law. 25 So he poured out on them his burning anger, the violence of war. It enveloped them in flames, yet they did not understand; it consumed them, but they did not take it to heart.

It seems once again you guys will be repeating history (this verse) if your beliefs are true. Yall havent made a sacrifice in years upon years for yall sins and so how can yall be forgiven of any?

Its also funny how i even stooped to your level and used almost only all OT scriptures, those you accept as a witness against you and you still dont see. You zig zag around them and never answer them. Where is your answer to Everlasting Righteous returning and leaving, returning and leaving, and returning and leaving etc etc? Man, how many times can God keep coming back to His ADULTRESS wife? Or did He divorce them and make a new covenant with the Gentiles?---Look it up--then again why? You still wont see!!

 

[AK4]

+++AK4: - Now did this happen with the Jews? Yes right after they crucified Jesus.

+++Ben: - This only proves that Jesus had no Messianic qualifications. Why do I say so? Because according to Isaiah 11:12, the main characteristic of a Messianic leader is to gather the Jewish People from the four corners of the earth back to Israel. With Jesus the People were expelled to the four corners of the earth

Wow, you went to verse 12 but skipped over the verses before it. Lets read.

10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. 11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea. 12 He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. 13 Ephraim's jealousy will vanish, and Judah's enemies will be cut off; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim. 14 They will swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west; together they will plunder the people to the east. They will lay hands on Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites will be subject to them. 15 The Lord will dry up the gulf of the Egyptian sea; with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand over the Euphrates River. He will break it up into seven streams so that men can cross over in sandals. 16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people that is left from Assyria, as there was for Israel when they came up from Egypt.

and

Zec 14:4 - On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

Now has this day happened yet? No. Why would God be doing this a second time? Doesnt that indicate that there was a first time when He came? If you say the first time when Everlasting Righteousness returned to you guys was after the exile from Babylon to when the temple was destroyed, that would indicate that when the first time He appeared, He appeared as a man because why else when He returns again and HIS FEET will stand on the Mount of Olives?

So in other words did your Everlasting Righteousness fail the first time to gather all His people or did He even have the intention to do the first time? Think about it.

 

[Ben Masada]

Wow, you went to verse 12 but skipped over the verses before it. Lets read.

10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.

+++Ben: - The Root of Jesse is a synonym with the Root of Judah. That's Messiah ben David, opposite to the Root of Ephraim or Messiah ben Joseph. The Root of Judah is the banner for the peoples. The nations will rally to us as Zechariah prophesised in 8:23.

11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second timeto reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

+++Ben: - The second time the Lord reached His "hand" was when the exile in Babylon was over. The reference to all those places above means the expression, "From the four corners of the earth."

12 He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.

+++Ben: - That's what God has done already for three times by using certain chosen men as Messianic leaders, which even as a Messianic leader Jesus did not qualify.

13 Ephraim's jealousy will vanish, and Judah's enemies will be cut off; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim.

+++Ben: - The meaning of jealousy that won't exist between Ephraim and Judah is based on the fact that the tribal system is over, and that now we will all be one people: The House of Jacob called by the new name Israel from the Root of Judah, according to Isaiah 48:1.

14 They will swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west; together they will plunder the people to the east. They will lay hands on Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites will be subject to them.

+++Ben: - This has also happened by describing what the new People of Israel has become strong and the sole "King" over the whole land. Albeit politically still unsettled.

15 The Lord will dry up the gulf of the Egyptian sea; with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand over the Euphrates River. He will break it up into seven streams so that men can cross over in sandals.

+++Ben: - This means the victory over the struggles to resettle again on the Land.

16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people that is left from Assyria, as there was for Israel when they came up from Egypt.

+++Ben: - This has happened already when the Remnant of the People returned from Babylon.

Zec 14:4 - On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

+++Ben: - This is a reference to the split of the Tribes when Ephraim governed by Jeroboam took over the Northern part, and Rehoboam stayed with Judah and Benjamin in the South.

Now has this day happened yet? No. Why would God be doing this a second time? Doesnt that indicate that there was a first time when He came? If you say the first time when Everlasting Righteousness returned to you guys was after the exile from Babylon to when the temple was destroyed, that would indicate that when the first time He appeared, He appeared as a man because why else when He returns again and HIS FEET will stand on the Mount of Olives?

+++Ben: - Yes, everything of the above has happened already. Not literally as those
who lack all Philosophical training to understand analogy and allegory, but metaphorically as the language of prophecies is supposed to be understood.

So in other words did your Everlasting Righteousness fail the first time to gather all His people or did He even have the intention to do the first time? Think about it.

++++++++++++++++++++++

+++Ben: - Yes, I thought about it. Everlasting Righteousness never failed us. IT returned to us the first time when God was reminded of our suffering in Egypt. The second time when the 70 years of Babylonian captivity was over, and now when Herzl woke the Messiah up with love for Zion.

Ben :clap

 

[AK4]

++++++++++++++++++++++

+++Ben: - Yes, I thought about it. Everlasting Righteousness never failed us. IT returned to us the first time when God was reminded of our suffering in Egypt. The second time when the 70 years of Babylonian captivity was over, and now when Herzl woke the Messiah up with love for Zion.

Ben :clap

+++Ben: - Yes, everything of the above has happened already. Not literally as those
who lack all Philosophical training to understand analogy and allegory, but metaphorically as the language of prophecies is supposed to be understood.

Wow i see that God has really blinded you (guys) from seeing spiritually!! Or from having discernment.

So Isa 11: 10-16 happened after the babylonian exile metaphorically, allegorically and analogically? You IT returned you guys (metaphorically, allegorically, as an analogy) the first time and reminded you guys of your suffering in Egypt. Then You say Everlasting Righteousness returned the second time(metaphorically, allegorically, as an analogy) after the babylonian exile but then left and scattered the Jews again after destroying the temple, but now its a prophesy that hasnt happened yet. Make up your mind!! Which is it?

None of that prophecy has been fufilled yet. None. Your right i dont have philosiphical training, but Ive been given a gift from God that apparently you and almost all the Isrealites from those days (and some from these days) dont have...Eyes and ears to be able to see and hear spiritually His Word.

Eze 12:2 - "Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.


So which is it now? Be careful how you answer because someones about to do this :foot::foot::foot:


Oh by the way, Hes with you guys now and this prophecy is being fufilled? Herzl woke up the Messiah? Now this is getting really wierd!!

 

[Ben Masada]

Wow i see that God has really blinded you (guys) from seeing spiritually!! Or from having discernment.

So Isa 11: 10-16 happened after the babylonian exile metaphorically, allegorically and analogically? You IT returned you guys (metaphorically, allegorically, as an analogy) the first time and reminded you guys of your suffering in Egypt. Then You say Everlasting Righteousness returned the second time(metaphorically, allegorically, as an analogy) after the babylonian exile but then left and scattered the Jews again after destroying the temple, but now its a prophesy that hasnt happened yet. Make up your mind!! Which is it?

None of that prophecy has been fufilled yet. None. Your right i dont have philosiphical training, but Ive been given a gift from God that apparently you and almost all the Isrealites from those days (and some from these days) dont have...Eyes and ears to be able to see and hear spiritually His Word.

Eze 12:2 - "Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.


So which is it now? Be careful how you answer because someones about to do this :foot::foot::foot:


Oh by the way, Hes with you guys now and this prophecy is being fufilled? Herzl woke up the Messiah? Now this is getting really wierd!!

++++++++++++++++++++

Oh! As I can see, you have never heard that more and more Jews are coming to the understanding about the truth of the Collective Messiah. Well, I am glad to break the news to you. Most of us were mistaken with the false hope of an individual Messiah when the Messiah according to Isaiah has been ourselves all along. Yes sir,
Israel, the Jewish People is the Messiah.

Moses was the first Messianic leader who guided the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus, a Gentile Prince, gained the title of a Messianic leader when he proclaimed the end of the Babylonian exile and allowed the Jews to return and rebuild the Temple. And now, in the second part of the last Century, Herzl was the third one who inspired the Messiah with love for Zion.

An individual Messiah would never make sense. The individual dies. Are we to expect a different Messiah in every generation? Of course not! The Collective Messiah does not die. Isaiah calls him the Suffering Servant not a dead one.

Ben :rainbow1:

 

[AK4]

++++++++++++++++++++

Oh! As I can see, you have never heard that more and more Jews are coming to the understanding about the truth of the Collective Messiah. Well, I am glad to break the news to you. Most of us were mistaken with the false hope of an individual Messiah when the Messiah according to Isaiah has been ourselves all along. Yes sir,
Israel, the Jewish People is the Messiah.

Moses was the first Messianic leader who guided the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus, a Gentile Prince, gained the title of a Messianic leader when he proclaimed the end of the Babylonian exile and allowed the Jews to return and rebuild the Temple. And now, in the second part of the last Century, Herzl was the third one who inspired the Messiah with love for Zion.

An individual Messiah would never make sense. The individual dies. Are we to expect a different Messiah in every generation? Of course not! The Collective Messiah does not die. Isaiah calls him the Suffering Servant not a dead one.

Ben :rainbow1:

So i see you completely avoided my question beause you know you would be having a mouthful to swallow, but anyway Isreal as a collective Messiah? That is so unscriputural even for just the OT. Really its blasphemy against God. Heres just a few of the scriptures for you that that violates

Isaiah 53:10-12 10 Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. 11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

So you are telling me that the collective messiah that you say are the Isrealites are baring the sins for the world? I thought that was Gods responsibility.

Or how about this one

Isa 9:6 - For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
So now the collective messiah that you say are the Isrealites are now the Mighty God? Really? Come on now. :thud: The gentiles are to worship the mighty Isrealites? WHAT?!!!

An individual Messiah would never make sense. The individual dies. Are we to expect a different Messiah in every generation? Of course not! The Collective Messiah does not die. Isaiah calls him the Suffering Servant not a dead one.

By the way since when have the this collective messiah been a light to the gentiles? The only way they could have been is by giving us, the gentiles, an example of what not to be like. Throughout scripture the Isrealites are called adulterous rebellious wife and they have never been a light to the gentiles, Save Jesus and the apostles and that includes Paul.

Wow!! Amazing absolutely amazing.

 

[Ben Masada]

So i see you completely avoided my question beause you know you would be having a mouthful to swallow, but anyway Isreal as a collective Messiah? That is so unscriputural even for just the OT. Really its blasphemy against God. Heres just a few of the scriptures for you that that violates

+++Ben: - Before I look at your few scriptures, let me ask you a question about being the Collective Messiah unscriptural or not. Here it is: Do you believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah? Of course you do. What was the theme of the whole book of Isaiah? Read Isaiah 1:1. "The vision which Isaiah had concerning Judah and Jerusalem." Good. Now, you know that the whole book of Isaiah is about Judah, the People, and not Jesus, the individual. Now, let's see whom Isaiah identifies as that Servant. Read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. You see? Isaiah mentions the Messiah by name and the name is not Jesus but Israel. How much light do you need in order to see? Now, let's go to you few scriptures.

Isaiah 53:10-12 10 Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

+++Ben: - This is Messiah ben Joseph or Israel, whose life was made a guilt offering for the sins of Messiah ben David or Judah who would see his offspring forever in Jerusalem, according to God's promise to David to preserve Judah. (I Kings 11:36)

11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

+++Ben: - The light of life that Israel saw and was satisfied was the survival of Judah. Israel or Messiah ben Joseph is considered righteous servant because he died for the sins that he had not committed: The sins of Judah. The many here justified of their sins are the Jews who would survive the death of Israel. And he (Israel) will bear their iniquities. (the iniquities of Judah).

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

+++Ben: - A portion among the great is a place in the greater world without the feeling of being different or ostracized. Why? Because he sacrificed himself unto death allthough being part of the transgressors (Judah), he Israel bore their sins; the sins of Judah, and by doing so, served as intercessor between God and the transgressors or the Jews.

So you are telling me that the collective messiah that you say are the Isrealites are baring the sins for the world? I thought that was Gods responsibility.

+++Ben: - So, after Israel or Messiah ben Joseph was gone, Messiah ben David or Judah took the role of Suffering Servant to be the reason for the wordl to go on living. Yes, that's what I am saying. God takes responsibility for no sins. Israel took resposibility for the sins of Judah, and now Judah takes resposibility for the sins of
the world. But the difference here is that Judah does not have to die or to sacrifice himself to death. Just by being the Suffering Servant, the world will be allowed to exist. That's why God promised Noah never to destroy Mankind again. The guarantee of that promise was in Israel.

Or how about this one

Isa 9:6 - For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
So now the collective messiah that you say are the Isrealites are now the Mighty God? Really? Come on now. :thud: The gentiles are to worship the mighty Isrealites? WHAT?!!!

+++Ben: - Yes, for us (Gentiles) a child (Judah) is born from the ashes of the virgin Israel who died at giving birth to Judah according to Isaiah 66:7,8. A male child born already as a nation. The government on his shoulders is the responsibility for the well-being of the world. About all those adjectives of Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, did you know that's exactly how the Egyptians considered Pharaoh? So, it's perfectly possible to consider Israel. About being gods, why did this get you startled? Jesus himself quoting Pasam 82:6 confirmed in John 10:34 that the Jews as the sons of the Most High are gods. Please, check the quotations in order not to think that I am making out things. But don't worry, you don't have to worship the "mighty Israelites." Just be thankful to God that He provided them so that you can have a realationship with God.



By the way since when have the this collective messiah been a light to the gentiles? The only way they could have been is by giving us, the gentiles, an example of what not to be like. Throughout scripture the Isrealites are called adulterous rebellious wife and they have never been a light to the gentiles, Save Jesus and the apostles and that includes Paul.

+++Ben: - This Collective Messiah has been a light to the Gentiles since Jacob was born. It was confirmed by Isaiah in 42:6, and reconfirmed by Jesus in Matthew 5:14.
Please, again I ask: Read the quotations and not only what I write. Well my friend if they have never been for light unto the Gentiles, the whole Scripture is lying, even Jesus who confirmed our mission.

Wow!! Amazing absolutely amazing.

+++Ben: - Isn't it? I agree with you. Absolutely amazing! Do you remember why Shakespeare said, "To be or not to be, that's the question?" Because when we have, it can be taken away, but when we are, we are no matter what. That's why Jesus, speaking to the Jews, he did not say, "you have" but "you are the light unto the Gentiles." (Mat. 5:14)

And last but not least, the good news is that you can join if you want. The way is found in Isaiah 56:1-8 and Zechariah 8:23.

Ben:clap

 

[AK4]

+++Ben: - Isn't it? I agree with you. Absolutely amazing! Do you remember why Shakespeare said, "To be or not to be, that's the question?" Because when we have, it can be taken away, but when we are, we are no matter what. That's why Jesus, speaking to the Jews, he did not say, "you have" but "you are the light unto the Gentiles." (Mat. 5:14)

And last but not least, the good news is that you can join if you want. The way is found in Isaiah 56:1-8 and Zechariah 8:23.

Ben

So lets see, You accept that Jesus died for your sins, but deny Him the Messiahship that He deserves because you even admit that He died for yall sins because He didnt sin Himself?

You deny Jesus this right but say the collective messiah deserves this because Judahs sins were forgiven because of the sacrifice of Jesus.

This Judah and Jerusalem spoken of is figurative (spiritual) language and is not at all literal. There Judah represents Jesus because He came from that lineage and Jerusalem represents the temple where everyone will worship Him in their hearts and mind. Its not literal. Gods words are spirit. It has a spiritual meaning and from what i know of most Jews they dont know anything about spiritual.

+++Ben: - Yes, for us (Gentiles) a child (Judah) is born from the ashes of the virgin Israel who died at giving birth to Judah according to Isaiah 66:7,8. A male child born already as a nation. The government on his shoulders is the responsibility for the well-being of the world. About all those adjectives of Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, did you know that's exactly how the Egyptians considered Pharaoh? So, it's perfectly possible to consider Israel . About being gods, why did this get you startled? Jesus himself quoting Pasam 82:6 confirmed in John 10:34 that the Jews as the sons of the Most High are gods. Please, check the quotations in order not to think that I am making out things. But don't worry, you don't have to worship the "mighty Israelites." Just be thankful to God that He provided them so that you can have a realationship with God.

Don’t you see every time God mentions some thing about Egypt it represented sin? So don’t you see that there might be something wrong with what you are saying? Egypt represents sin. When God brought the Isrealites out of Egypt It was symbolic of them coming out of sin being baptized in the Red Sea . If you equate what you believe the Egyptians did with their pharaoh to you guys well where does that put you guys? In the same sin/Egypt that they were in.


+++Ben: - This Collective Messiah has been a light to the Gentiles since Jacob was born. It was confirmed by Isaiah in 42:6, and reconfirmed by Jesus in Matthew 5:14.
Please, again I ask: Read the quotations and not only what I write. Well my friend if they have never been for light unto the Gentiles, the whole Scripture is lying, even Jesus who confirmed our mission.


Its not they, its Jesus that is being referred to. Did you read all of Isa 42. Did you read who Jesus was talking to? His disciples! Those that believed in Him that He was the Son of God. Those that follow His words and teaching. He was not talking to the whole Isrealites or Jews. Besides if what you say as the collective messiah---most Jews or Isrealites dont believe or follow Jesus' teachings. Jesus and His apostles including Paul and some other disciples and those who actually follow His teachings throughout the years since He came are and will be the light through Jesus through God. And yes i said that right.

+++Ben: - Isn't it? I agree with you. Absolutely amazing! Do you remember why Shakespeare said, "To be or not to be, that's the question?" Because when we have, it can be taken away, but when we are, we are no matter what. That's why Jesus, speaking to the Jews, he did not say, "you have" but "you are the light unto the Gentiles." (Mat. 5:14)



Read above.


+++Ben And last but not least, the good news is that you can join if you want. The way is found in Isaiah 56:1-8 and Zechariah 8:23.

Uhhh :no:. To deny Jesus His Messiahship and not follow His commands and praise God the way the Egyptians did thier pharoah etc etc etc, then i cant sorry.

By the way, to claim that Jesus is still dead, then you fall in with those back in his day called the Sadducees-- not believing in a resurrection.

Anyway to get this back on the track of free will, God caused you to choose the choice you made to believe the way you do so you will be held accountable, but Hes responsible. You had no other way to turn out but by the way He made you.

 

[pray4me]

I do not deny the existence of a spiritual creature bent on the destruction of humanity (i.e. Satan or the Devil) What I do argue with is blaming him for our shortcomings. "The Devil made me do it" is not an acceptable excuse for chosing the wrong path. Every single person has free will to choose good or evil. Without the existence of evil there would not be the choice and there would not be free will. For us to build character we must be tempted, the Devil is therefore just the instrument of an all knowing creator to give us that free will choice. The Devil may think he is defying the Creator but he is in fact helping him to separate the good from the bad.

 

[Ben Masada]

I do not deny the existence of a spiritual creature bent on the destruction of humanity (i.e. Satan or the Devil) What I do argue with is blaming him for our shortcomings. "The Devil made me do it" is not an acceptable excuse for chosing the wrong path. Every single person has free will to choose good or evil. Without the existence of evil there would not be the choice and there would not be free will. For us to build character we must be tempted, the Devil is therefore just the instrument of an all knowing creator to give us that free will choice. The Devil may think he is defying the Creator but he is in fact helping him to separate the good from the bad.

===================

Sorry, but the existence of a being called Devil makes no sense to Reason.

Ben

 

[AK4]

I do not deny the existence of a spiritual creature bent on the destruction of humanity (i.e. Satan or the Devil) What I do argue with is blaming him for our shortcomings. "The Devil made me do it" is not an acceptable excuse for chosing the wrong path. Every single person has free will to choose good or evil. Without the existence of evil there would not be the choice and there would not be free will. For us to build character we must be tempted, the Devil is therefore just the instrument of an all knowing creator to give us that free will choice. The Devil may think he is defying the Creator but he is in fact helping him to separate the good from the bad.

The devil doesnt make you do anything. You choose from a set of different circumstances or possibilities or consequences etc. There is a cause for everything and that takes away "free" will. Satan may tempt you. Right there is a cause. What caused satan to tempt you. God created satan to be a temptor, a deciever, a enemy of the truth. So whats the ultimate cause of everything? God. But, BUT, you are accountable and He is responsible because you have a will to make a choice in a given situation. And therefore without the Spirit of God in you to make/inspire/guide/help or what have you, choose the right choice, God holds Himself responsible and will forgive all your sins because the Potter created you the pot in a way to serve His purpose, His plan.

If you want me to use His Word to back all this up, just let me know its no problem because i am just reiterating what is in His Word.

 

[AK4]

===================

Sorry, but the existence of a being called Devil makes no sense to Reason.

Ben

And yet in the book of Job, The Lord is speaking directly to Satan. On more than one occasion and then Job prophesies how the Lord even created satan. Come now

 

[Jehonadab]

The devil doesnt make you do anything. You choose from a set of different circumstances or possibilities or consequences etc. There is a cause for everything and that takes away "free" will. Satan may tempt you. Right there is a cause. What caused satan to tempt you. God created satan to be a temptor, a deciever, a enemy of the truth. So whats the ultimate cause of everything? God. But, BUT, you are accountable and He is responsible because you have a will to make a choice in a given situation. And therefore without the Spirit of God in you to make/inspire/guide/help or what have you, choose the right choice, God holds Himself responsible and will forgive all your sins because the Potter created you the pot in a way to serve His purpose, His plan.

If you want me to use His Word to back all this up, just let me know its no problem because i am just reiterating what is in His Word.

Yes God did create Satan but Satan chose his path. For some reason people assume that someone being perfect means that they always make the right decisions. If that was the case Satan would not have attempted to persuade Eve or Jesus. You spoke of humans having free will, so do angels, if you were perfect you also would have free will and if you decided to take your perfect human body to make a dumb decision then you would face the consequences of your act. To not believe in the devil is to not believe the bible at all. The issue discussed throughout the whole bible is "Does God have the right to rule mankind or is mankind better off without God?"

 

[Ben Masada]

Yes God did create Satan but Satan chose his path. For some reason people assume that someone being perfect means that they always make the right decisions. If that was the case Satan would not have attempted to persuade Eve or Jesus. You spoke of humans having free will, so do angels, if you were perfect you also would have free will and if you decided to take your perfect human body to make a dumb decision then you would face the consequences of your act. To not believe in the devil is to not believe the bible at all. The issue discussed throughout the whole bible is "Does God have the right to rule mankind or is mankind better off without God?"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

God rules Mankind only with regards to the nature of things. As far as behaviour is concerned, Mankind is divided in social groups to rule themselves in full use of their
freewill.

Now, for the existence of Satan as a being, you can believe what you want. To me it
does not make sense. Satan is a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man, which has been acquired through years of bad habits.

Religious crooks take advantage of this opportunity to work on the naivety of superstitious people and play with their fears. I mean, those who believe in Satan
as a being.

Ben

 

[AK4]

Yes God did create Satan but Satan chose his path. For some reason people assume that someone being perfect means that they always make the right decisions. If that was the case Satan would not have attempted to persuade Eve or Jesus. You spoke of humans having free will, so do angels, if you were perfect you also would have free will and if you decided to take your perfect human body to make a dumb decision then you would face the consequences of your act. To not believe in the devil is to not believe the bible at all. The issue discussed throughout the whole bible is "Does God have the right to rule mankind or is mankind better off without God?"

Satan was created by God perfectly to do the job he was given from THE BEGINNING.

Joh 8:44 - You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
1Jo 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Satan was never a perfectly created "good" angel who chose to go against God. He was created from the beginning to be opposed to God. The lucifer story is a hoax. Those are not talking about satan, they are talking about the king of babylon and assyria. The word they translated in the bible for lucifer is howl. Thats right howl.
"Howl O king"

 

[AK4]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

God rules Mankind only with regards to the nature of things. As far as behaviour is concerned, Mankind is divided in social groups to rule themselves in full use of their
freewill.

Now, for the existence of Satan as a being, you can believe what you want. To me it
does not make sense. Satan is a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man, which has been acquired through years of bad habits.

Religious crooks take advantage of this opportunity to work on the naivety of superstitious people and play with their fears. I mean, those who believe in Satan
as a being.

Ben

We have a will, an ability to make a choice from different options, but this will is not free from any cause. No not one. Therefore there is no "free" will.

 

[Ben Masada]

We have a will, an ability to make a choice from different options, but this will is not free from any cause. No not one. Therefore there is no "free" will.

++++++++++++++++++

In that case you are a cybernetics robot in human form. Whoever programmed you
did a good job.

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

And yet in the book of Job, The Lord is speaking directly to Satan. On more than one occasion and then Job prophesies how the Lord even created satan. Come now

+++++++++++++++++++

Gosh! I don't know what more can faith do to reason.
The book of Job is a Jewish novel with the purpose to illustrate the role of Israel
in the Counsel of God. Apart from the lesson the author is supposed to convey,
the book is a fiction. Job as a person never existed. If you find hard to go this
way, consider God, the Creator of the Universe, being persuaded by Satan to
change His mind, or being influenced by outside forces. You are making of God
an anthropomorphic being, with human attributes. God is an incorporeal Spirit.
No wonder Jesus said that you (Gentiles) worship what you do not know. Opposite
to us the Jews who worship Whom we know. Why? Because God is Spirit and we are supposed to worship Him in spirit. (John 4:22,24)

Ben :clap