French Burka Ban

[Madhuri]

I've come to the conclusion that you cannot force this on people. Australia will never ever be accepting of foreign culture no matter what politicians say. I'm not trying to have a rant here, i'm just telling what I think and that is that we tolerate it rather than accept it and we only tolerate it because we have to.

I don't know if I agree, I mean this country is becoming more and more culturally diverse. We've come a long way over the last 100 years. I think that there is just as good a chance of us becoming more accepting as there is that we will become less accepting or unchanged.

 

[Nooj]

I've come to the conclusion that you cannot force this on people. Australia will never ever be accepting of foreign culture no matter what politicians say. I'm not trying to have a rant here, i'm just telling what I think and that is that we tolerate it rather than accept it and we only tolerate it because we have to.

Australia will be better for it just by the effort. It's true that we're never going to be able to wipe out xenophobia, bigotry and racism, but the answer isn't to throw up our hands and give up. It'll get worse if that happens. If we're more tolerant because we have to be tolerant...well we're still tolerant.

 

[Madhuri]

If anything was to go legal about it then it would become us targeting christians the same was France is targeting muslims though right?

I say ban it in public to prevent all the nonsense associated with people shoving religion down each others throats.

I also think it would remove the racism issues we have here. I've been smashed on this forum for referring to gang violence perpetrators as a "muslim gang." If they weren't wearing religious symbols I wouldn't be able to make remarks like that which are both truthful and potentially offensive and neither would anyone else.

Actually, I think you'd be fine if you took out, say, a restraining order against a group that is harassing you by frequenting your home and seriously imposing themselves onto you. You would likely have a lot of support from your community because any one group doing this represents a minority that is hassling a lot of people.

But if you only receive an occasional visit and these people go away once you tell them that you are not interested, then we should be able to tolerate this. Otherwise we should outright ban everyone who comes to the door uninvited including sales persons or even telemarketers (who are far more annoying imo).

I don't think making such a religious ban in a country like ours would eliminate conflict. All religious folk would be up in arms about it and probably cause a lot of conflict. It would be, after all, taking away part of their social identity, which generally holds a lot of meaning and value to people.

 

[Badran]

I understand your reasoning darkendless, i think though that to enforce that by the law is unfair, for many reasons. Some people would rather be provoked by others because of the religious symbol they wear than to let go of that religious symbol, and its well within their rights to wear it. Perhaps like Madhuri said the effort would be best directed at the people doing the provocations.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

the French have a very secular national identity, which even has laws about preserving their language.
I suspect That this is not simply a government decision, but reflects the view of French nationals generally.
If you go back 40 years virtually No Muslim wore their national costume anywhere in Europe. It was not because they could not , but because they did not want to.
Over the last 20 years Muslims have become vastly more demonstrative about the image of their religion, so that now Arab dress is commonplace.

The unfortunate part is that now Demonstrators in the UK, with no particular religious bent, have started to take advantage of dressing in Black with Hoodies and face coverings, and some male criminals have dressed up as Muslim women. The Demonstrators were actually filmed changing back into normal clothing when they thought that they were unobserved.

Perhaps the time has come For a more general ban on identity hiding in public.

 

[Madhuri]

the French have a very secular national identity, which even has laws about preserving their language.
I suspect That this is not simply a government decision, but reflects the view of French nationals generally.
If you go back 40 years virtually No Muslim wore their national costume anywhere in Europe. It was not because they could not , but because they did not want to.
Over the last 20 years Muslims have become vastly more demonstrative about the image of their religion, so that now Arab dress is commonplace.

The unfortunate part is that now Demonstrators in the UK, with no particular religious bent, have started to take advantage of dressing in Black with Hoodies and face coverings, and some male criminals have dressed up as Muslim women. The Demonstrators were actually filmed changing back into normal clothing when they thought that they were unobserved.

Perhaps the time has come For a more general ban on identity hiding in public.

Good post. Understanding context in any given situation helps.

 

[Badran]

Seriously though, a country that bans its citizens from wearing religious symbols in order to make some people feel better isn't somewhere I'd like to live.

I completely agree, and that is pretty much the case we have here.

 

[839311]

French burka ban: police arrest two veiled women - Telegraph

I think this is too extreme.

I havnt given it much thought, so I cant say whether I think having this law and enforcing it is good or bad.

I think, though, that the burka is extreme in itself. Covering one's face is a strange thing, I think. I don't like it at all. I don't like seeing people wearing it. Oppression is a thought that occurs to me when I see it.

 

[Nooj]

Maybe you should ask them whether they are oppressed.

 

[Madhuri]

Maybe you should ask them whether they are oppressed.

Do the oppressed admit to their oppression? Maybe they don't realise.
I get the impression that a lot of these women are truly forced to dress that way. But I'd have to find myself in that person's shoes to really know what it is like.

 

[*Anne*]

I think, though, that the burka is extreme in itself. Covering one's face is a strange thing, I think. I don't like it at all. I don't like seeing people wearing it. Oppression is a thought that occurs to me when I see it.

I know what you mean. Whenever I see the burka, I am reminded of footage on the news of a woman being beaten with stick by a member of the Taliban. The association is definitely not positive.

However, security arguments aside, I cannot bring myself to tell another woman she cannot wear it simply because it bugs me. Others might see my high heels in a negative light ~ one could probably put together an argument about how oppressive they are. They're certainly not built for comfort, and you can't help but wonder how many women are limping around in them in order to appear more attractive to men.

It's not the best comparison, I admit.

 

[Nooj]

Do the oppressed admit to their oppression? Maybe they don't realise.

I agree that oppressed people might not even know they're oppressed.

But that seems unlikely to me. Many of these women were born in France or converted into the religion. They can compare their situation to other women and decide for themselves: "Do I want to be here?". To be honest, I find arguments that say we have to choose for them because they don't know any better demeaning. Even children can choose what they want.

And how could anyone distinguish between a non-oppressed person who willingly takes up a burqa and an oppressed person who wears a burqa? Can we read their minds and decide for her if she is being oppressed? If they are oppressed, I think there are better ways of removing that oppression than banning burqas. Like removing the oppressors.

 

[Madhuri]

I agree that oppressed people might not even know they're oppressed. But that seems unlikely to me. Many of these women were born in France or converted into the religion. They can compare their situation to other women and decide for themselves: "Do I want to be here?"

And how could anyone distinguish between a non-oppressed person who willingly takes up a burqa and an oppressed person who wears a burqa? Can we read their minds and decide for her if she is being oppressed?

If they are oppressed, I think there are better ways of removing that oppression than banning burqas. Like removing the oppressors.

The problem for a lot of these people is that if they were to choose a different lifestyle, their family and community would reject them. It puts a lot of pressure to stick to tradition and maintain the same attitudes and beliefs.

As for removing the oppressors, how do you do that in this case?

 

[lunakilo]

I have been thinking about this thread over lunch, and I think I have come to the conclusion that the burka ban has nothing to do with burkas.

I think the question is, how much should socioty change (if at all) to accommodate people who choose not to follow the norm?
It is easy to say that you should be tolerant, but if I have to change my ways in order for someone else to be able to practice their religion, is that ok?

Islam is a very visible religion, and it is quite demanding of its surroundings (I am going to get it for that statement am I not ? )

Some of the classics are:
Should schools cook using halal meat in order to accommodate the muslin children since the rest have no problem eating 'muslim food', and leave out the traditional pork dishes?
Should boys and girls have separate changing rooms in school before they reach puberty?
Should you provide separate showers for people who don't want others to see them naked?
Is it ok to wear very visable religious symbols?

If you answer yes to any of these, then that means that (danish) socioty in general has to change in order to accommodate muslims.

This may seem like small things, but it annoys people, and causes reactions like Marbles post ...

I'm from Europe and I support the French decission.
We have had enough from Islam over here,...

The burka ban is just the natives reacting to the above.

That doesn't mean the ban is right by the way, it is just an attempt to explain it.

 

[Nooj]

The problem for a lot of these people is that if they were to choose a different lifestyle, their family and community would reject them. It puts a lot of pressure to stick to tradition and maintain the same attitudes and beliefs.

Again, true. But lets take this argument to its logical conclusion. Are religious people (in particular, Christians and orthodox Jews) oppressed?

As for removing the oppressors, how do you do that in this case?

I'm certain the French already have laws against the abuse of women. The woman can report the man to the police. Or divorce him. In fact, I remember reading that the French passed a law where a Muslim male who forces someone to wear a burqa is liable to go to jail. So there's already protection.

Lets be honest, this law is going to punish the women. If they are being oppressed, then the men won't let them go out.

 

[Madhuri]

I have been thinking about this thread over lunch, and I think I have come to the conclusion that the burka ban has nothing to do with burkas.

I think the question is, how much should socioty change (if at all) to accommodate people who choose not to follow the norm?
It is easy to say that you should be tolerant, but if I have to change my ways in order for someone else to be able to practice their religion, is that ok?

Islam is a very visible religion, and it is quite demanding of its surroundings (I am going to get it for that statement am I not ? )

Some of the classics are:
Should schools cook using halal meat in order to accommodate the muslin children since the rest have no problem eating 'muslim food', and leave out the traditional pork dishes?
Should boys and girls have separate changing rooms in school before they reach puberty?
Should you provide separate showers for people who don't want others to see them naked?
Is it ok to wear very visable religious symbols?

If you answer yes to any of these, then that means that (danish) socioty in general has to change in order to accommodate muslims.

This may seem like small things, but it annoys people, and causes reactions like Marbles post ...


The burka ban is just the natives reacting to the above.

That doesn't mean the ban is right by the way, it is just an attempt to explain it.

This is a very good post. I guess my response is that the decision makers need to be as reasonable as possible and weigh the benefits against negative repercussions.

For instance, a lot of the demands would be simple to solve, or to find some sort of compromise. For example:

1)Kids are welcome to bring their own food to school, or the school could provide a small portion of halal meat for cooking classes or cafeteria if there is one. If necessary, food orders could be made in advance for these students so the school can more easily accommodate their needs. Just like how schools here provide vegetarian options and buy tofu and mock-egg for cooking classes.

2) Is there really a problem in providing some private showers in a bathroom so that there is both private and public showering?

Should girls and boys have separate changing rooms. My answer: You don't have separate changing rooms in your country?

 

[darkendless]

Actually, I think you'd be fine if you took out, say, a restraining order against a group that is harassing you by frequenting your home and seriously imposing themselves onto you. You would likely have a lot of support from your community because any one group doing this represents a minority that is hassling a lot of people.

Its not harassment they're generally nice people who I try to respect, i'm just offended by what they do. I'm offended because I know it would be socially unacceptable if I did what they were doing in favour of atheism. Therefore its religious bias.

But if you only receive an occasional visit and these people go away once you tell them that you are not interested, then we should be able to tolerate this. Otherwise we should outright ban everyone who comes to the door uninvited including sales persons or even telemarketers (who are far more annoying imo).

I can tolerate it, i've even had a few discussions but I do not feel that I should have to tolerate this, nor put signs up telling them not to bother. I'm offended that i'm expected (socially) to give these people my time because "I need saving." I don't think i've really explained myself clearly here.

I don't think making such a religious ban in a country like ours would eliminate conflict. All religious folk would be up in arms about it and probably cause a lot of conflict. It would be, after all, taking away part of their social identity, which generally holds a lot of meaning and value to people.

I think my view is rather naive but in general i'm concerned about the role religion plays in our society and the negativity people attract because of their religion. This relates to the discussion given what France has done about one of the more obvious religious symbols in the burqa.
My unfounded solution was to level the playing field by accepting that religion is going to provoke strong emotions and negativity. I also feel that some religions are more susceptible to negativity than others so targeting them all would be a fair way of controlling religion in public.

I think I need to have a think about my stance when i'm not writing a thesis

 

[darkendless]

It puts a lot of pressure to stick to tradition and maintain the same attitudes and beliefs.

Is this a valid arguement for forcing other cultures to tolerate things they view as socially incompatible with their own values?

I'm rather conflicted on this issue, you can probably tell by how much jibberish i'm spewing in my posts

 

[Madhuri]

Again, true. But lets take this argument to its logical conclusion. Are religious people (in particular, Christians and orthodox Jews) oppressed?

I'm sure that everyone experiences some level of oppression, but there are some things in life that are more oppressive than others. Christians and Jews have experiences some serious oppression in particular societies and times in history through their own belief systems.

 

[Madhuri]

Is this a valid arguement for forcing other cultures to tolerate things they view as socially incompatible with their own values?

I'm rather conflicted on this issue, you can probably tell by how much jibberish i'm spewing in my posts

The part you quoted was me arguing that if these women are oppressed, there probably isn't much they can do about it.