French Burka Ban

[blackout]

Motorbike helmets, ski masks, neck tubes, fancy dress.....

Very few skiiers and motorbike drivers walk around all day with their helmets on and face shields down.
A motorcycle helmet is designed for visibility and motoring safety of course,
so driving with a motorcycle helmet (especially on a motorcycle) is a no brainer.
(especially if you like your brains)
I suppose if you want to wear it ALL DAY LONG, knock yourself out.
And you probably will in the summer if it doesn't have an internal cooling system.

Neck tubes are mostly only good for covering hickies,
which it is your EVERY RIGHT TO HAVE.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for neck sucking rights as well.:yes:

Fancy dress and costume?
Love it. Every day should be Halloween.
Every day should be a regal high ball masquarade!
Life would be SO MUCH more astheticaly interesting.

We could all make Lady Gaga look tame.

There will need to be a disrobing station in all Banks and Airports.
oop! Already half way there.

 

[sandandfoam]

well for one, the french...

Is Sarkozy's xenophobic right wing government synonymous with French in your view?
I imagine there are many left wing French people who would disagree. Why accept your view over theirs?

actually, no identity is their identity.

I am a fan of the Social Identity Approach. From this perspective identity is a process on a continuum from personal identity to social or group identity. Identities are multiple and whichever identity is salient depends on a range of factors.
I understand your expressed view of identity above as being singular and blunt. Am I mistaken?
If not why should I abandon my view for yours?

they should adapt to the new culture/laws...

Why?
Why should the culture in which they live not also adapt to them?

how about this...
in california if a couple divorces and they have been married for a certain amount of time, everything that is considered community property is split 50/50...should this not apply to muslim women who happen to live in california?

Is this a problem at the minute?

the line has to be drawn somewhere.
it's the law...why should there be double standards for the religious?

What line? Why? What business has a fascist French government dictaing what anyone can or cannot wear?

 

[sandandfoam]

We could all make Lady Gaga look tame.

And Sarkozy would leave us alone.
Because the racists he's pandering to hate North Africans/Arabs/Muslims. Not us.

 

[blackout]

And Sarkozy would leave us alone.
Because the racists he's pandering to hate North Africans/Arabs/Muslims. Not us.

Well maybe if they made meat burqas,
and red vinyl burqas?

Face it. France is High Fashion.
Spice those bags up girlz!

If they can't identify it as a "burqa" Proper......
You tell them it's HIGH FASHION.
And work it!

Cover yourSelves with some kind of non generic style
and I can't see how they can arrest you.
I'm being SERIOUS about this.
(Oddly),
It's not the face covering they are concerned with.

Make it 'Coiture'!, (not Burqa)
each covering, a one of a kind fashion,
expressive of your own personal inner identity,
and REALLY what CAN they say or do about it?!

"We arrested this woman, Your Honor, for wearing a Burqa"

"No Your Honor, this is Coiture. The officer is mistaken."

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Well maybe if they made meat burqas,
and red vinyl burqas?

Face it. France is High Fashion.
Spice those bags up girlz!

If they can't identify it as a "burqa" Proper......
You tell them it's HIGH FASHION.
And work it!

Cover yourSelves with some kind of non generic style
and I can't see how they can arrest you.
I'm being SERIOUS about this.
(Oddly),
It's not the face covering they are concerned with.

Make it 'Coiture'!, (not Burqa)
each covering, a one of a kind fashion,
expressive of your own personal inner identity,
and REALLY what CAN they say or do about it?!

"We arrested this woman, Your Honor, for wearing a Burqa"

"No Your Honor, this is Coiture. The officer is mistaken."

If I'm not mistaken, the purpose of the burqa is to express modesty. Fancy materials and cold-cuts probably would not be viewed as modest.

Although I do agree, it would definitely spice it up a bit.

 

[waitasec]

Is Sarkozy's xenophobic right wing government synonymous with French in your view?
I imagine there are many left wing French people who would disagree. Why accept your view over theirs?

consider the muslim population in your country is 0.5%
in the US it's 0.6%
now compare it to 6% in france. the population is large enough to disrupt the culture (your face as your identity) and laws in france.

Why?
Why should the culture in which they live not also adapt to them?

because the french laws/culture make france french
and the same goes for algerian culture/laws algeria
no one is going into algeria and telling the women to stop wearing the burqua because it is wrong...that is their culture not the culture of france.
actually it's rather arrogant to expect the country that allowed you to live in it to bend to your culture...

Is this a problem at the minute?

there have been cases where muslims do not adhere to the laws of divorce because they believe they are subjected to islamic laws and not to the law of the land...
where do you draw the line?

What line? Why? What business has a fascist French government dictaing what anyone can or cannot wear?

because in france your identity is determined by your face...

it's really simple. the fact that muslims think they can change the laws because of their religion, in a country they have been allowed to live in, is an act of control and arrogance.

here in los angeles the latino community refuses to learn the english language...don't you think that poses a problem?

 

[blackout]

If I'm not mistaken, the purpose of the burqa is to express modesty. Fancy materials and cold-cuts probably would not be viewed as modest.

Although I do agree, it would definitely spice it up a bit.

Does this "modesty" come only in Black and Navy Blue?
Is this "modesty" a "one size fits all" garment?

Maybe create a full body collage,
of what modesty means to you,
in textile symbolism/s.

Or just use fabrics and patterns you LIKE.
How on earth is this immodest?
Make them INTERESTING on the outside,
like YOU ARE on the inside.
Express yourSelf.
Have fun with it!
Is any form of outward Self expression immodest?
Especially as expressed in a work of art?

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Does this "modesty" come only in Black and Navy Blue?
Is this "modesty" a "one size fits all" garment?

Maybe create a full body collage,
of what modesty means to you,
in textile symbolism/s.

Or just use fabrics and patterns you LIKE.
How on earth is this immodest?
Make them INTERESTING on the outside,
like YOU ARE on the inside.
Express yourSelf.
Have fun with it!
Is any form of outward Self expression immodest?
Especially as expressed in a work of art?

You are posing this to me as if I was the one that decided what "Modesty" entails. I was merely making an assumption based on an educated guess, derived from what Muslim countries enforce on their women regarding "Modest" clothing. This question would be better served to the "Modesty Police" in Iran who hassle and arrest women who aren't modest enough.

I agree with you. I think they should be able to use pretty patterns with sparkly ingots and gems and whatnot. I agree, have fun with it, express yourself how you see fit. Having to wear only a black or navy blue burqa is not expression, nor does it provide any sort of identity, short of religious.

 

[blackout]

You are posing this to me as if I was the one that decided what "Modesty" entails. I was merely making an assumption based on an educated guess, derived from what Muslim countries enforce on their women regarding "Modest" clothing. This question would be better served to the "Modesty Police" in Iran who hassle and arrest women who aren't modest enough.

I agree with you. I think they should be able to use pretty patterns with sparkly ingots and gems and whatnot. I agree, have fun with it, express yourself how you see fit. Having to wear only a black or navy blue burqa is not expression, nor does it provide any sort of identity, short of religious.

Just used your post as a springboard.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Just used your post as a springboard.

Gotcha

 

[sandandfoam]

consider the muslim population in your country is 0.5%
in the US it's 0.6%
now compare it to 6% in france. the population is large enough to disrupt the culture (your face as your identity) and laws in france.

France disrupted North Africa for years as a colonial power. They can't say Muslims are 'foreign'. Given their history they're not entitled to.

because the french laws/culture make france french

And culture is always in flux. It is the people make the country. French citizens are Mulsims. It is their country too.

and the same goes for algerian culture/laws algeria
no one is going into algeria and telling the women to stop wearing the burqua because it is wrong...that is their culture not the culture of france.
actually it's rather arrogant to expect the country that allowed you to live in it to bend to your culture...

In fairness I don't think anyone could teach Sarkozy anything about arrogance. He has it off pat.

there have been cases where muslims do not adhere to the laws of divorce because they believe they are subjected to islamic laws and not to the law of the land...
where do you draw the line?

I see no need for an artificial line

because in france your identity is determined by your face...

I do not accept this point and I offered my reasons above. Simply restating your point does not make it so.

it's really simple. the fact that muslims think they can change the laws because of their religion in a country they have been allowed to live in is an act of control and arrogance.

What about French Muslims?

here in los angeles the latino community refuses to learn the english language...don't you think that poses a problem?

Given the history of LA, following your argument to it's logical conclusion would it not be more appropriate for you to be speaking Spanish? Or whatever language the Tongva spoke?

 

[waitasec]

France disrupted North Africa for years as a colonial power. They can't say Muslims are 'foreign'. Given their history they're not entitled to.

but did they forbid their culture?

And culture is always in flux. It is the people make the country. French citizens are Mulsims. It is their country too.

lets just say in the islamic faith, every 3rd child born had to get their eyes gouged out...are you telling me they have the right to do this in france because it is a part of their culture/religion?

I see no need for an artificial line

it's not artificial...
International Family Law: Islamic divorce vs. U.S divorce

What about French Muslims?

if they really want to wear the burqua and really want to follow their religion, then move to where that law and culture is practiced...
this is france, not algeria...

Given the history of LA, following your argument to it's logical conclusion would it not be more appropriate for you to be speaking Spanish? Or whatever language the Tongva spoke?

i speak spanish...

this is why i disagree with religion....
because religion is arrogance...my beliefs trump your rights...

i have the right to know who you are by simply looking at your face...

like i said before, who's to say anything about covering anyones face even if it has nothing to do with religion...
there is something wrong with that line of thinking when applied to western culture

the line has to be drawn... abide by the law of the land, it's not like the french have outlawed the muslim faith...
identity is elemental in western society...it's about common sense and the common understanding that double standards do not work.

 

[Badran]

because religion is arrogance...my beliefs trump your rights...

So you're letting your misunderstanding of religion dictate to you how you should view this issue?

What are your rights that are trumped by another woman wearing what she wants?

 

[waitasec]

So you're letting your misunderstanding of religion dictate to you how you should view this issue?

What are your rights that are trumped by another woman wearing what she wants?

identification is a vital part of the culture...
where is the line drawn, because anyone who wants to hide their identity could...and that don't fly in western culture...sorry.
if someone moves to another country, it is their obligation to adjust to the culture and laws of the land.

let me put it to you like this...
what if there were people who migrated to your country and in their religion the 3rd child born into a family had to have their eyes removed...
would your laws not say anything against such a thing?

it is their right to follow their religion, right?

 

[Badran]

identification is a vital part of the culture...
where is the line drawn, then anyone who wants to hide their identity could...
if someone moves to another country, it is their obligation to adjust tho the culture and laws of the land.

let me put it to you like this...
what if there were people who migrated to your country and in their religion the 3rd child born into a family had to have their eyes removed...
would your laws not say anything against such a thing?

it is their right to follow their religion, right?

The difference is in this case they are directly hurting someone else, which is liable under the law. Unless of course we're going to consider the hurt feelings of those who might dislike the burqa, and i'm sure you're not suggesting that.

I agree that a person needs to adjust to the new laws of the country, but not to the culture. As long as he is not taking away from other people's freedom, or hurting others, he can do whatever the hell he wants.

As for facial identification, we said earlier in the thread that it should be not allowed for the woman to cover her face in certain instances that requires facial identification. However i don't have a personal right of seeing your face whenever i like. Or like someone else said in this thread we should then ban all sorts of things that might cover your face.

 

[waitasec]

As for facial identification, we said earlier in the thread that it should be not allowed for the woman to cover her face in certain instances that requires facial identification. However i don't have a personal right of seeing your face whenever i like. Or like someone else said in this thread we should then ban all sorts of things that might cover your face.

then we are in agreement...

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

I think that is a classic example of government capitalizing on xenophobia and populism to enforce this law and is totally counterproductive even for those proponents of this law who have no religion at all. I don't think under any circumstances the government should be telling us what to think either on a religious level of philosophical level no matter how much I may happen to agree with them. I hate burkas full stop, but providing women have been not coerced into wearing them I see no harm in them. I think drag queens are free to wear them if it is their choice. In fact some drag queens I have encountered look so butt ugly a burka may be the only thing that looks remotely flattering on them.

 

[TashaN]

I have a question.

Does France or any other country has the right to protect the secular identity of their nation by passing laws that will restrict people from practicing what they deem to be a natural representation of what they believe in? although this practice harms no body but it is looked upon as a symbol which seems to negate secular values in that country!

 

[waitasec]

does anyone have a problem with this..

gee i wonder why this guys is hiding his face

 

[Bismillah]

Quick question, are you serious enough to consider that a ban on ski masks would serve as a deterrence when robbers planned a heist?

Would they reflect that, given the illegality of a ski mask, they must now perform the robbery using an alternative?

Where does your logic exactly being?