French Burka Ban

[Flankerl]

I still want to know how someone should identify a person who is wearing a burka or what ever hides the face without asking the person.

 

[Badran]

There's a little difference in the two examples tho, considering in France, you get arrested for wearing a burqa. In Saudi Arabia, if an american female wears a tubetop and daisy dukes walking down the street, she would be arrested, and then flogged.

It's really a catch-22. While she should be able to wear what she wants, if the established law prevents it, you should probably refrain from doing it. This however, does not mean the law to begin with was just.

After the establishment of such law its more complicated of course. But i think Pegg was referring to the concept in general, that its disrespectful to wear clothes that are deemed offensive for some pitiful reason, and that i disagree with.

It couldn't matter less what each culture may feel "weird" about or what they like and what they don't. Their liking or disliking is for them to worry about, not for me. Like i said in the other thread which is discussing the same issue, if a man lived in whatever country and had long hair, and in that country people viewed men with long hair as a disturbing site, is he then being offensive or disrespectful if he keeps it long? Of course not.

They are the ones being offensive if they expect him to cut it so that their feelings are preserved. If his hair doesn't hurt anybody, or in some mysterious way takes away from others freedom, he can't be wrong or liable under the law to keep it that way, neither is he offensive in the least.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

After the establishment of such law its more complicated of course. But i think Pegg was referring to the concept in general, that its disrespectful to wear clothes that are deemed offensive for some pitiful reason, and that i disagree with.

It couldn't matter less what each culture may feel "weird" about or what they like and what they don't. Their liking or disliking is for them to worry about, not for me. Like i said in the other thread which is discussing the same issue, if a man lived in whatever country and had long hair, and in that country people viewed men with long hair as a disturbing site, is he then being offensive or disrespectful if he keeps it long? Of course not.

They are the ones being offensive if they expect him to cut it so that their feelings are preserved. If his hair doesn't hurt anybody, or in some mysterious way takes away from others freedom, he can't be wrong or liable under the law to keep it that way, neither is he offensive in the least.

I agree, however allow me to put a small twist on it. How do you deal with criminals? Say a women, or a small man dressed in a burqa robs a bank. The surveillance equipment is now useless cause you cannot see the persons face. This person gets away, and because you never saw a face, and you can wear a burqa in public, the person is never caught. How do you deal with problems like this?

 

[Chisti]

is it so hard for you to understand that covering your face in western culture implies ill intent...

People in the west must get used to it. They have no choice, to be honest.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

People in the west must get used to it. They have no choice, to be honest.

And how is it they don't have any choice?

 

[Chisti]

And how is it they don't have any choice?

Globalization, comrade. The world is becoming smaller and smaller, with dynamic movements of both capital and labor across the globe. So different cultures and ethnic groups, nationalities, must learn to respect one another, understand one another, and live in harmony. There is no other choice.

 

[Dezzie]

I may be wrong but i think Pegg was saying that the woman who wears this is being disrespectful, not the other way around. As in she shouldn't wear it, because people don't like it. If thats what she was saying and i didn't misunderstand, do you agree with that?

I think that the act is disrespectful (especially if someone is not taking into consideration that the clothing is disrespectful to others) but it doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong. People should always educate themselves about other Countries because their laws are different than ours. A female would be really stupid if she decided to walk around in a skimpy outfit where it wasn't allowed.

I may not agree with people making a big deal about what others choose to wear but in all reality, it is still the law in some places. Unfortunately, if some laws are broken, the punishments are taken to the extreme. You can try and change it but some people are still going to go back to their old ways.

A good example of that is with the Dalits in India (untouchables). Discrimination against the lowest castes is supposedly “illegal” in India, but the untouchables still deal with it everyday (even from some officials). In 2000, statistics were done in regards to this issue. They stated that around 25,000 crimes were committed against untouchables. Every hour 2 were assaulted and during each day 3 Dalit women were raped, 2 were killed, and two Dalit homes were torched. This is unbelievable especially since it is supposed to be illegal.

My point is, if you try and change laws that have been around for a very long time, people will most likely not follow them.

This burka situation is horrible for Muslims, especially if they want to wear it for religious reasons. You still have to respect what other Countries believe though. If they don't like the law, they should move elsewhere. Why would you want to go to a place where you are discriminated against anyway?

 

[Chisti]

Why would you want to move to a place where you are discriminated against anyway?

It's called economics. People don't always have a choice. Plus, in an increasingly globalized world, the 'foreigners must respect local culture' line is quite silly.

 

[Dezzie]

Because Americans are prudish when it comes to the human body, and assume that shielding a child from violent movies will keep them from becoming violent. It's a ridiculous law IMO.

I think that law is ridiculous as well. IMO laws are what cause people to do the things they do... Society affects our actions. When parents aren't open to their children about sex and nudity, those kids are going to learn elsewhere. Would you rather be the person who teaches your kids, or do you want them learning it from their friends? Laws against drugs, attract people to them. It's the same with the sex issue. If people didn't make a big deal, people wouldn't go out of their way to try these things. Curiousity and the thrill are two major issues with this.

 

[Badran]

I agree, however allow me to put a small twist on it. How do you deal with criminals? Say a women, or a small man dressed in a burqa robs a bank. The surveillance equipment is now useless cause you cannot see the persons face. This person gets away, and because you never saw a face, and you can wear a burqa in public, the person is never caught. How do you deal with problems like this?

I guess this is what would be considered misuse of something. If one day this happens to present itself as a big problem, meaning that its occurring a lot and causing a serious problem, it would not be unreasonable to deal with it by banning this dress due to its excessive misuse that is causing a major situation in society, and anybody who is a part of that society, who understands their duties, should accept that i guess. They may still be bothered by it and wish this wasn't the case, but at least they should understand that due to the pressing matter at hand, this is a needed special or unusual law.

I know you're proposing this just so we can discuss it, but just in case so nobody misunderstands, this is not the case in France.

 

[Dezzie]

It's called economics. People don't always have a choice. Plus, in an increasingly globalized world, the 'foreigners must respect local culture' line is quite silly.

That is true... but I didn't mention some thing... I do feel that foreigners should NOT be punished for their ways. No one should be looked down upon for what they do (because what they do back home is different). What I was saying was that if people KNOW the laws in other Countries, why are you going to attempt to break them when you know the severity of the consequences? It's pure stupidity IMO. Do I think the severe punishments to foreigners is right? Lord no. It's absolutely ridiculous. Should you still have respect for all people? YES. We would want the same respect in America, so we should be able to give it right back to others.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Globalization, comrade. The world is becoming smaller and smaller, with dynamic movements of both capital and labor across the globe. So different cultures and ethnic groups, nationalities, must learn to respect one another, understand one another, and live in harmony. There is no other choice.

I agree, but how does that imply that western cultures have no choice but to honor middle eastern traditions? Why do they not have to honor the western traditions and culture when they immigrate to western countries?

 

[RitalinO.D.]

I guess this is what would be considered misuse of something. If one day this happens to present itself as a big problem, meaning that its occurring a lot and causing a serious problem, it would not be unreasonable to deal with it by banning this dress due to its excessive misuse that is causing a major situation in society, and anybody who is a part of that society, who understands their duties, should accept that i guess. They may still be bothered by it and wish this wasn't the case, but at least they should understand that due to the pressing matter at hand, this is a needed special or unusual law.

I know you're proposing this just so we can discuss it, but just in case so nobody misunderstands, this is not the case in France.

Agreed. Was merely playing devil's advocate

 

[lunakilo]

I am going to ask the same question again (since it didn't get an answer the first time)

You seem to forget that I live in Denmark. As far as I know there is no legal restriction in this country on the age when a person is allowed to watch a movie with nude people or a pornograpich movie.

I assume the rules you refer to has something to do with not wanting children to look at people having sex.

I don't see how that applies to nude people walking down the street.
So why do you feel that you are entitled to walk down a street without seeing a man's or women's genitals?

[Edit]
My point as you can probably imagine is:
1) you are entitled to walk down a street without seeing a man's or women's genitals.
2) the french are entitled to walk down a street without seeing people wearing burkas.

Why is 1) correct and 2) incorrect in your opinion?

 

[Badran]

I think that the act is disrespectful (especially if someone is not taking into consideration that the clothing is disrespectful to others) but it doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong. People should always educate themselves about other Countries because their laws are different than ours. A female would be really stupid if she decided to walk around in a skimpy outfit where it wasn't allowed.

I may not agree with people making a big deal about what others choose to wear but in all reality, it is still the law in some places. Unfortunately, if some laws are broken, the punishments are taken to the extreme. You can try and change it but some people are still going to go back to their old ways.

A good example of that is with the Dalits in India (untouchables). Discrimination against the lowest castes is supposedly “illegal” in India, but the untouchables still deal with it everyday (even from some officials). In 2000, statistics were done in regards to this issue. They stated that around 25,000 crimes were committed against untouchables. Every hour 2 were assaulted and during each day 3 Dalit women were raped, 2 were killed, and two Dalit homes were torched. This is unbelievable especially since it is supposed to be illegal.

My point is, if you try and change laws that have been around for a very long time, people will most likely not follow them.

This burka situation is horrible for Muslims, especially if they want to wear it for religious reasons. You still have to respect what other Countries believe though. If they don't like the law, they should move elsewhere. Why would you want to go to a place where you are discriminated against anyway?

I think you're misunderstanding me. This is a law now, but it wasn't a law before. I'm talking about the concept itself. Why is it disrespectful to wear something that other people don't like?

Note i'm not talking about wearing a T-shirt saying some offensive remark, which in this case is disrespectful, but still he has every right to wear it as we probably agree. And by the way this in my opinion would be wrong, if it is indeed saying for example something that is a direct insult for someone or some people.

However, we're talking about wearing something that for some people is just too weird or in some cases a sign of an oppressed person due to its attachment with somethings in people's minds. This is not disrespectful, because the reason it is attached in people's minds with such things is irrational (though understandable). And for those who find it weird, it shouldn't be offensive or disrespectful in the first place unless they were fools who expect people to meet their taste.

 

[lunakilo]

This burka situation is horrible for Muslims, especially if they want to wear it for religious reasons. You still have to respect what other Countries believe though. If they don't like the law, they should move elsewhere. Why would you want to go to a place where you are discriminated against anyway?

I very much disagree with you.

The law is not always right.

If you think the law is wrong, you should try to change the law, not move out of the country.

 

[Badran]

I agree, but how does that imply that western cultures have no choice but to honor middle eastern traditions? Why do they not have to honor the western traditions and culture when they immigrate to western countries?

In my opinion it should work that each culture or country welcomes and respects individuals coming in with different cultures and backgrounds. So when someone with western culture goes to live in an eastern culture the same applies to him as when a man from eastern culture goes to live in a country with western culture.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

In my opinion it should work that each culture or country welcomes and respects individuals coming in with different cultures and backgrounds. So when someone with western culture goes to live in an eastern culture the same applies to him as when a man from eastern culture goes to live in a country with western culture.

I agree, but that doesn't mean that the immigrated culture should bend to the immigrating culture, which is how some people think. There should be a middle ground IMO.

I know when I used to deploy to Turkey and S.A., we had briefings on the local culture, with a list of do's and dont's. For example, never shake with your left hand, don't show the bottoms of your shoes or feet. Don't use the hand sign for o.k., etc.

 

[Badran]

I agree, but that doesn't mean that the immigrated culture should bend to the immigrating culture, which is how some people think. There should be a middle ground IMO.

I know when I used to deploy to Turkey and S.A., we had briefings on the local culture, with a list of do's and dont's. For example, never shake with your left hand, don't show the bottoms of your shoes or feet. Don't use the hand sign for o.k., etc.

Of course i didn't mean that the entire country will change its culture to meet the newcomers, merely that they should accept them with their different background. As for the examples you mentioned, i agree the newcomers naturally will change if only a little bit to fit somehow in the new country, at least in this kind of small things, but the society shouldn't expect them to be like them neither. The reason i put it the way i did is because we were talking about people's expectancy from those immigrating to be like them, so i was focusing more on them.

In other words to put the whole thing in perspective with your addition, both will do some effort. But neither should bend completely to meet the other. And as long as nobody is getting hurt, there is no problem in my opinion.

 

[Dezzie]

I think you're misunderstanding me. This is a law now, but it wasn't a law before. I'm talking about the concept itself. Why is it disrespectful to wear something that other people don't like?

Note i'm not talking about wearing a T-shirt saying some offensive remark, which in this case is disrespectful, but still he has every right to wear it as we probably agree. And by the way this in my opinion would be wrong, if it is indeed saying for example something that is a direct insult for someone or some people.

However, we're talking about wearing something that for some people is just too weird or in some cases a sign of an oppressed person due to its attachment with somethings in people's minds. This is not disrespectful, because the reason it is attached in people's minds with such things is irrational (though understandable). And for those who find it weird, it shouldn't be offensive or disrespectful in the first place unless they were fools who expect people to meet their taste.

Ahhh gotcha... as far as a burka is concerned... I really don't see how wearing it is disrespectful. That type of accessory is not harmful to anyone. As I mentioned in one of my first posts, people DISCRIMINATE against it in regards to that person's ETHNICITY. Wearing it is not disrespectful. People who say it is disrespectful are discriminating against those who are wearing it.