French Burka Ban

[waitasec]

Ahhh gotcha... as far as a burka is concerned... I really don't see how wearing it is disrespectful. That type of accessory is not harmful to anyone. As I mentioned in one of my first posts, people DISCRIMINATE against it in regards to that person's ETHNICITY. Wearing it is not disrespectful. People who say it is disrespectful are discriminating against those who are wearing it.

do you mean covering your face, when it's not called for (severe weather for example), isn't disrespectful in western culture?

 

[Badran]

Ahhh gotcha... as far as a burka is concerned... I really don't see how wearing it is disrespectful. That type of accessory is not harmful to anyone. As I mentioned in one of my first posts, people DISCRIMINATE against it in regards to that person's ETHNICITY. Wearing it is not disrespectful. People who say it is disrespectful are discriminating against those who are wearing it.

I agree and i understood that from your first post, thats why i assumed you misunderstood Pegg's point.

 

[Badran]

do you mean covering your face, when it's not called for (severe weather for example), isn't disrespectful in western culture?

Its called for by their religion. If some westerners can't understand that, they are the ones being disrespectful. Further, if its not called for by anything other than the person's weird needs or feelings, like someone who likes to wear spiderman all day, it shouldn't be a problem except in the situations when it is necessary to reveal one's face for certain needs.

 

[waitasec]

Its called for by their religion. If some westerners can't understand that, they are the ones being disrespectful. Further, if its not called for by anything other than the person's weird needs or feelings, like someone who likes to wear spiderman all day, it shouldn't be a problem except in the situations when it is necessary to reveal one's face for certain needs.

lets say...
in my religion, i can walk around naked...
how would that fly in algeria? would the algerians not be respectful of my religion and my right to walk around naked?

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Its called for by their religion. If some westerners can't understand that, they are the ones being disrespectful. Further, if its not called for by anything other than the person's weird needs or feelings, like someone who likes to wear spiderman all day, it shouldn't be a problem except in the situations when it is necessary to reveal one's face for certain needs.

There are certain situations where I would think it would be common knowledge that wearing something over your entire face would not be appropriate. Driving a vehicle, or walking into a bank for example.

When I went to the BAM (Big *** Mall) in Doha Qatar, there was not a single Muslim women that wasn't in full burqa. Bout the only thing you can say is, man she has some sexy ankles...

Fortunately they do not insist on Western women wearing a burqa. They were fine with their normal way of dressing, which I am sure was appreciated by them.

On the other hand, when I was in S.A. and we went on offbase excursions, the women with us had to wear scarves over their hair. Although covering their entire face wasn't necessary.

 

[Badran]

lets say...
in my religion, i can walk around naked...
how would that fly in algeria? would the algerians not be respectful of my religion and my right to walk around naked?

You don't even need it to be part of your religion, if no arguments can be made explaining how you walking around naked hurts or takes away from anybody else's rights or freedoms, you should be able to walk around naked. And the fact that Algerians won't allow you to do that is no surprise, because thats still the case in most places.

 

[Marble]

People in the west must get used to it. They have no choice, to be honest.

Globalization, comrade. The world is becoming smaller and smaller, with dynamic movements of both capital and labor across the globe. So different cultures and ethnic groups, nationalities, must learn to respect one another, understand one another, and live in harmony. There is no other choice.

The majority of cultures on this planet have no concept of veiling from women.
It does not exist in China, nor Japan, nor Latin-America, nor Europe.
Perhaps it is time for Muslims to get used to the idea of adapting their behaviour to the cultures of the countries the live in, instead of instisting that everyone from China to Mexico adapts to their wishes, be it swimming lessons for girls in schools, halal food, or weired face-covering dresses.
Considering the dynamic movements of both capital and labor I wonder when non-Muslims working in Islamic countries will get the right to build churches/temples/synagogues there, pratice their religions in public, teach their children their religions & dress in public how they like, weather it fits the Islamic dresscode for women or not.

 

[Badran]

There are certain situations where I would think it would be common knowledge that wearing something over your entire face would not be appropriate. Driving a vehicle, or walking into a bank for example.

I agree. Though in the case of driving, a distinction must be made between burqa as it is in Afghanistan for example, and between niqab. Niqab doesn't cover the eyes and women drive with it here all the time perfectly well. It is exactly as if she was wearing a headscarf in terms of how it affects her vision.

When I went to the BAM (Big *** Mall) in Doha Qatar, there was not a single Muslim women that wasn't in full burqa. Bout the only thing you can say is, man she has some sexy ankles...

Fortunately they do not insist on Western women wearing a burqa. They were fine with their normal way of dressing, which I am sure was appreciated by them.

On the other hand, when I was in S.A. and we went on offbase excursions, the women with us had to wear scarves over their hair. Although covering their entire face wasn't necessary.

Though what i'm going to say is irrelevant, but it has to do with another discussion you & I were having.

This is an important example on the difference between Muslim countries and how they apply religion based on their own standards. Another even more obvious example is between Turkey and Saudi Arabia.

 

[Badran]

The majority of cultures on this planet have no concept of veiling from women.
It does not exist in China, nor Japan, nor Latin-America, nor Europe.
Perhaps it is time for Muslims to get used to the idea of adapting their behaviour to the cultures of the countries the live in, instead of instisting that everyone from China to Mexico adapts to their wishes, be it swimming lessons for girls in schools, halal food, or weired face-covering dresses.
Considering the dynamic movements of both capital and labor I wonder when non-Muslims working in Islamic countries will get the right to build churches/temples/synagogues there, pratice their religions in public, teach their children their religions & dress in public how they like, weather it fits the Islamic dresscode for women or not.

Are you trying intentionally to completely miss the point and talk about irrelevant stuff?

 

[waitasec]

You don't even need it to be part of your religion, if no arguments can be made explaining how you walking around naked hurts or takes away from anybody else's rights or freedoms, you should be able to walk around naked. And the fact that Algerians won't allow you to do that is no surprise, because thats still the case in most places.

hmmmm, see what i mean?

 

[Badran]

hmmmm, see what i mean?

I agree its hypocritical if there aren't any arguments against walking around naked, but then shouldn't you be focusing your effort on that, thus increasing freedoms, instead of arguing against freedoms of others when related to religion, which results in decreasing freedoms?

Or did i still miss your point?

 

[Starsoul]

The majority of cultures on this planet have no concept of veiling from women.
It does not exist in China, nor Japan, nor Latin-America, nor Europe.
Perhaps it is time for Muslims to get used to the idea of adapting their behaviour to the cultures of the countries the live in, instead of instisting that everyone from China to Mexico adapts to their wishes, be it swimming lessons for girls in schools, halal food, or weired face-covering dresses.[

And majority is always right and gets to pick and choose for the 'supposed' minority as you perceive? If you think muslims are a minority, you need to wake up. It is quite amazing that your statement is quite un-accepting of muslim culture. Why should muslims adapt to the cultures of places they live in, if other cultures claim to be secular, then they should atleast attempt to strike close to that claim.

And please clarify when did muslims INSIST from china to mexico to don a hijab? People really need to get educated.

Your point implies that muslims should also force other cultures to dress up in hijab or the veil if other cultural people live in muslim countries, that does not happen , you do know right?

Considering the dynamic movements of both capital and labor I wonder when non-Muslims working in Islamic countries will get the right to build churches/temples/synagogues there, pratice their religions in public, teach their children their religions & dress in public how they like, weather it fits the Islamic dresscode for women or not.
[

Non muslims HAVE churches/temples and synagogues in muslim countries, just google it.

 

[Chisti]

The majority of cultures on this planet have no concept of veiling from women.
It does not exist in China, nor Japan, nor Latin-America, nor Europe.
Perhaps it is time for Muslims to get used to the idea of adapting their behaviour to the cultures of the countries the live in, instead of instisting that everyone from China to Mexico adapts to their wishes, be it swimming lessons for girls in schools, halal food, or weired face-covering dresses.
Considering the dynamic movements of both capital and labor I wonder when non-Muslims working in Islamic countries will get the right to build churches/temples/synagogues there, pratice their religions in public, teach their children their religions & dress in public how they like, weather it fits the Islamic dresscode for women or not.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Your point implies that muslims should also force other cultures to dress up in hijab or the veil if other cultural people live in muslim countries, that does not happen , you do know right?

That's not accurate. S.A. requires it.

Non muslims HAVE churches/temples and synagogues in muslim countries, just google it.

Not entirely true. Not a single church anywhere in S.A. There are Christians in S.A. but they are forced to practice their religion in private.
Although there is word that there is negotiations of building the first roman Catholic church there.

 

[Bismillah]

is it so hard for you to understand that covering your face in western culture implies ill intent...

Are you so naive to believe that banning one form of "covering a face" will ban the INFINITE number of alternatives, or even that specific measure when someone decides to carry out ill intent?

Just WHERE does the logic flow that someone with "ILL INTENT" will abide by such a silly rule.

 

[Bismillah]

That's not accurate. S.A. requires it.

OK as long as I can compare the French by the same standard that the West compares Saudiya I have NO problem, however we both know that is a double standard no Orientalist will accept.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

I agree. Though in the case of driving, a distinction must be made between burqa as it is in Afghanistan for example, and between niqab. Niqab doesn't cover the eyes and women drive with it here all the time perfectly well. It is exactly as if she was wearing a headscarf in terms of how it affects her vision.







Though what i'm going to say is irrelevant, but it has to do with another discussion you & I were having.

This is an important example on the difference between Muslim countries and how they apply religion based on their own standards. Another even more obvious example is between Turkey and Saudi Arabia.

Agreed

 

[RitalinO.D.]

OK as long as I can compare the French by the same standard that the West compares Saudiya I have NO problem, however we both know that is a double standard no Orientalist will accept.

What does any of this have to do with France, or what you do or do not have a problem with? I was simply correcting someone.

 

[Bismillah]

What does any of this have to do with France, or what you do or do not have a problem with? I was simply correcting someone.

Usually if someone corrects someone it has a purpose, I didn't know you were arguing semantics.

 

[waitasec]

I agree its hypocritical if there aren't any arguments against walking around naked, but then shouldn't you be focusing your effort on that, thus increasing freedoms, instead of arguing against freedoms of others when related to religion, which results in decreasing freedoms?

Or did i still miss your point?

but there are arguments against walking around with ones face covered...it is not socially acceptable in the western culture.

it is not acceptable to walk around fully naked just as it is not acceptable to walk around with your face covered. simple.
i would object to ANYONE walking around with their face covered as i would with ANYONE walking around fully naked, because it is first of all creepy and secondly it doesn't adhere to the social behavior patterns in the western culture...

consider,
in the US, the muslim population is only about .6% in france it is 6%.
i'm sure if there was an influx of muslim migrants we would be facing the same thing...