Frenchman wins case seeking to be "de-baptized" Roman Catholic

[Kathryn]

I can see both sides of this one, honestly. That said, in the end I agree with Kathryn.

He should be allowed to officially leave the Church and have them acknowledge it. But deleting his name from a ledger? I don't think they should have to go that far.

I've only checked the thread sporadically, but I vaguely recall someone comparing it to divorce. You may wish it had never happened, but it did, and the records should reflect that.

Yes, that was me who said that. It seems so logical, I can't even fathom why people can't see it.

 

[HerDotness]

From the OP source cited:

In Germany, a record 181,000 Catholics formally split from the Catholic Church in 2011—the first time that Catholic defections outpaced Protestants leaving. Rather than requesting de-baptisms, Germans fill out government paperwork saying they no longer want to pay church taxes.

“I don’t think they want to get rid of their belief, their connection to Jesus and the baptism, but they don’t want to be connected with the church hierarchy,” said Christian Weisner, German spokesman for the international lay reform movement We are Church.

At stake for many cash-strapped European churches is not just faith, but euros.

“It’s not by chance that in Germany, Austria and Belgium that the movement is strongest,” says Belgian researcher Morelli, noting countries that levy church taxes, which France does not. “It’s also a struggle about subsidies the population must pay for a church that doesn’t represent them.”

As for the impact that complete severance from RCC membership would have upon its overall income, I have no idea, nor do I know how much of an impact that would have upon Catholic parishes in individual countries.

 

[Kathryn]

So, are you saying that the RCC has every right to count as members people who've designated that they've left the church?

That's what I object to most strongly. Even if my baptismal record has a "left" notation on it, I'm still counted as a member simply because I was baptized in infancy.

Mormon family members can pray my soul into their ledgers and into heaven - at least that's their belief. How does that affect my life in any way?

 

[HerDotness]

My thoughts, exactly. It is difficult to imagine why this matter is of any importance, whatsoever.

Ah, yes, because it is of no importance to you, there's no good reason for it to be important to anyone else.

That makes perfect sense.

 

[Storm]

From the OP source cited:



As for the impact that complete severance from RCC membership would have upon its overall income, I have no idea, nor do I know how much of an impact that would have upon Catholic parishes in individual countries.

Is anyone saying he should still be counted a member? If so, that's ludicrous, not to mention despicable on the part of the church.

But I haven't seen anyone take that position. We're just talking about bookkeeping, not the state of his soul or their coffers.

Again, I haven't really followed the thread....

 

[HerDotness]

Mormon family members can pray my soul into their ledgers and into heaven - at least that's their belief. How does that affect my life in any way?

I don't have any idea. Apparently, that they can doesn't bother you.

I've explained several times why this bothers me. What I'm hearing from you is "Well, you shouldn't let it bother you."

Well, it does, and if you can't understand why it would, then remaining silent is advisable instead of criticizing the fact that this is an issue of concern to me. It's a matter of both perspective and consideration for another person's different viewpoint as I see it.

 

[Kathryn]

The man wants his baptismal record expunged as a PROTEST. It means something to him. I can understand why he might feel that way.

You prefer to regard what he wishes as an unreasonable request that records be altered.

There are two dramatically different perceptions of the situation operative here, yours and his.

Well I wish I'd never been married to my ex husband too, but the fact of the matter is - I was. Not anymore, but I was at one point.

I also wish that my parents hadn't had me baptised as a five year old in a southern baptist church (this was a weird period in their lives - they were baptist for about two years!). But you can look up the records of baptism at that church and there my name is. Dang it!

Messing up my whole life...my happiness...my peace of mind. I want that record of baptism removed doggone it! Hey, I was also baptised as an infant (my parents really couldn't get their act together on this baptism thing) - in the Presbyterian church. MAN! I've been baptised twice! My life is freaking RUINED! These churches are really ******* me off!

 

[YmirGF]

Ah, yes, because it is of no importance to you, there's no good reason for it to be important to anyone else.

That makes perfect sense.

Your feigned implication that this case is of importance is instructive. Intellectually bankrupt, but instructive, nonetheless.

 

[Kathryn]

I don't have any idea. Apparently, that they can doesn't bother you.

I've explained several times why this bothers me. What I'm hearing from you is "Well, you shouldn't let it bother you."

Well, it does, and if you can't understand why it would, then remaining silent is advisable instead of criticizing the fact that this is an issue of concern to me. It's a matter of both perspective and consideration for another person's different viewpoint as I see it.

No. I am not going to remain silent on a subject posted on a religious debate forum. I am going to debate the issue. If you don't want people to post their opinions on your opinion, don't post your opinion on a religious debate forum.

 

[Storm]

So, are you saying that the RCC has every right to count as members people who've designated that they've left the church?

That's what I object to most strongly. Even if my baptismal record has a "left" notation on it, I'm still counted as a member simply because I was baptized in infancy.

I dunno about Kathryn, but that couldn't be further from what I'm saying.

In fact, it seems to me that the entire focus of the case is in error. Were I in his position, I'd have sued to have my name removed from the MEMBERSHIP, not the baptismal record. Not only out of indignation at what is essentially stealing funds, but for religious reasons as well. There should be a list of renounced Catholics or something.

Mormon family members can pray my soul into their ledgers and into heaven - at least that's their belief. How does that affect my life in any way?

It doesn't, but I find it a loathsome presumption.

 

[Nakosis]

Well sure, but it's a 'principle' kind of thing.

Also an icing on the cake kind of thing.

Alright, I suppose a person has a right to determine what is important to them. I just think there are better things to do in life than worry about some church who wants to pretend I'm a member.

 

[Nakosis]

Your feigned implication that this case is of importance is instructive. Intellectually bankrupt, but instructive, nonetheless.

Intellectually bankrupt ideas seems to make the world go round.

What can you do?

 

[Kathryn]

I dunno about Kathryn, but that couldn't be further from what I'm saying.

In fact, it seems to me that the entire focus of the case is in error. Were I in his position, I'd have sued to have my name removed from the MEMBERSHIP, not the baptismal record. Not only out of indignation at what is essentially stealing funds, but for religious reasons as well. There should be a list of renounced Catholics or something.

This is exactly my point. It's just as easy to file a lawsuit asking for this as any other legal action. I think the whole case is sort of weird and bass ackwards.

 

[HerDotness]

When someone notifies the RCC that they have left the church, all that is done is to put a notation to that effect on the person's baptismal record. Mr. Lebouvier had done that. Later, he decided as a protest of the priestly abuse and other RCC stances which he disliked, that he wanted his name expunged from records altogether.

The RCC continues to count as members all people listed as having been baptized. Even if you are noted as having left, they still include you in those counts because the RCC's position is that baptism is forever.

And the policy is to baptize infants who have no choice in the matter.

"Once a Catholic, always a Catholic, no matter what."

 

[Kathryn]

From the OP source cited:



As for the impact that complete severance from RCC membership would have upon its overall income, I have no idea, nor do I know how much of an impact that would have upon Catholic parishes in individual countries.

In Germany, paying a church tax is not required if you are not a member of the church. As your article states, this involved filling out a simple government form. It does not involve even approaching the religious institution in question. You don't even have to notify them that you're not a member or supporter of their church or institution.

"The church tax is only paid by members of the respective church. People who are not members of a church tax-collecting denomination do not have to pay it. Members of a religious community under public law may formally declare their wish to leave the community to state (not religious) authorities. With such a declaration, the obligation to pay church taxes ends. Some communities refuse to administer marriages and burials of (former) members who had declared to leave it."
Church tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[HerDotness]

Your feigned implication that this case is of importance is instructive. Intellectually bankrupt, but instructive, nonetheless.

I'm feigning nothing. This case IS important to me.

It isn't important to you. Fine.

The earth will still rotate and revolve, I think it's safe to assume.

 

[Kathryn]

When someone notifies the RCC that they have left the church, all that is done is to put a notation to that effect on the person's baptismal record. Mr. Lebouvier had done that. Later, he decided as a protest of the priestly abuse and other RCC stances which he disliked, that he wanted his name expunged from records altogether.

The RCC continues to count as members all people listed as having been baptized. Even if you are noted as having left, they still include you in those counts because the RCC's position is that baptism is forever.

And the policy is to baptize infants who have no choice in the matter.

"Once a Catholic, always a Catholic, no matter what."

I bet there are some people who are really ******, running around wanting their foreskins back.

Hey, I'm ticked off that I was baptised twice as a child and had no say in the matter! While I'm at it, I'm also mad that my mom made me eat organic oatmeal instead of Cap'n Crunch. I had no say in that matter either.

My parents also made me go to nine schools in eight years. I had no say in that either. Wherever they decided to move, and whatever church they joined, I had to go along with it.

Wow, good thing I'm an adult now and can make my own decisions and not worry about my name being in a Southern Baptist AND a Presbyterian baptismal record.

 

[Quiddity]

Say, this goes through and the RC has to do what the court says. Can someone tell me why the RC should be the only ones to do this?

What about companies?

What about divorce (as others noted)?

What about the myriad of organizations out there?

It takes time and money to delete millions from the various systems.

Why should they have to pay for your (or your parents) mistake?

Not to mention that you are deleting valuable information for courts to use.

 

[Revoltingest]

Alright, I suppose a person has a right to determine what is important to them. I just think there are better things to do in life than worry about some church who wants to pretend I'm a member.

It's amazing to me what greatly concerns people.....
Elie Wiesel to Romney, Mormons: Don't baptize dead Jews
I'm sure that many of my concerns look trivial to others.

 

[Quiddity]

It's amazing to me what greatly concerns people.....
Elie Wiesel to Romney, Mormons: Don't baptize dead Jews
I'm sure that many of my concerns look trivial to others.

I do consider that to be different.