From The Heart of an Honest Muslim!

[LuisDantas]

I mentioned the Hadith and Sunnah because it's true that not all instructions to Muslims can be found in the Quran. So when an apologist claims "not in the Quran", one has to remember these other sources as being legitimate Islamic scripture.

Unfortunately, the net effect is that the Ahadith (and perhaps the Sunnah) take all the blame and end up protecting the Qur'an's reputation as a truly perfect scripture.

When in reality it is in bad need of a lot of criticism.

 

[LuisDantas]

39:23 God has sent down the best hadith, a book that is consistent, relating/contrasting/repeating. The skins of those who reverence their Lord shiver from it....

31:6 Among the people, there are those who accept baseless hadiths to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and they take it as entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.

It's clear that the use of Hadiths is not sanctioned by the Quran and those that use them are departing from the true spirit of Islam

Nah. Using either Hadiths or, instead, even more "humanly fallible and corruptible" old-fashioned discernment is actually indispensable for a Muslim. The Qur'an is hardly anywhere that clear, complete or detailed.

Maybe there is a true spirit of the Islam, maybe there isn't. But keeping to the static letter of the Qur'an and assigning all virtue to it and all misguidance to everything else is hardly a good thing to anyone.

 

[loverofhumanity]

As I said, you're up against a billion Muslims when you say that

I tend to think that things like the Arab Spring and instability in Iran and Saudi Arabia is due to people's rejection of societies that are based upon Hadiths. It's only the groups that resort to Hadiths who commit atrocities and establish oppressive societies.

For instance, nowhere in the Quran is music forbidden which is why the youth in Iran rebel against this harshness. They want music but false Hadiths replacing the Quran deny them this right. All of these oppressive societies are under threat because people are sick of living under not Islam but HADISM a state created in Hadiths.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I fail to see how one can read the Qur'an and conclude that it supports religious freedom. At best, it is somewhat sympathetic towards Judaism and Christianity.

It certainly doesn't encourage polytheism, that's for sure!

 

[LuisDantas]

It certainly doesn't encourage polytheism, that's for sure!

Well, yes. I take it that it is a good thing in your eyes?

Nor does it encourage or even respect atheism, for that matter. And it pretty much calls even its sister faiths misguided, to boot.

Not too much in the way of appreciation of religious diversity, IMO.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Well, yes. I take it that it is a good thing in your eyes?

Naturally, I'm a believer. The qur'an doesn't tell the believers to oppress others, regardless of their belief. It does instruct us to enjoin righteousness and forbid evil, so if a person doesn't agree with Almighty God about that which is evil, I can see that would cause a problem..

 

[LuisDantas]

Naturally, I'm a believer. The qur'an doesn't tell the believers to oppress others,

Not quite so openly, at least. As one would expect.

Oppressors tend to think of themselves as courageous, enlightened altruists who know better than those they opress.

The Qur'an does present pretty much every other belief as misguided at best, and that is in some senses even worse than ostensive, self-conscious discrimination.

regardless of their belief. It does instruct us to enjoin righteousness and forbid evil, so if a person doesn't agree with Almighty God about that which is evil, I can see that would cause a problem..

Maybe you could elaborate?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Oppressors tend to think of themselves as courageous, enlightened altruists who know better than those they opress.

Yes .. unfortunately satan causes mankind to be proud. Believers are often more guilty of this than others. Mankind's weaknesses are at fault, not Islam..

The Qur'an does present pretty much every other belief as misguided at best, and that is in some senses even worse than ostensive, self-conscious discrimination.

It might appear as such to disbelievers .. yet how can evil be quashed without clear guidelines?

Maybe you could elaborate?

Maybe you could be more specific?

 

[LuisDantas]

Color me scared. You truly don't notice...

 

[muhammad_isa]

Color me scared. You truly don't notice...

I notice you are a moderator and therefore your profile cannot be accessed

 

[LuisDantas]

I notice you are a moderator and therefore your profile cannot be accessed

My profile? It should be as accessible as any other, through http://www.religiousforums.com/members/luisdantas.16218/

Do you realize that you are telling me that you do not find religious acceptance to be a good thing; that you expect others to call Islam refraining from completely outlawing other beliefs "tolerance" because the real thing is Just So Wrong; that nonetheless the fault is supposed to be of men, not the Qur'an; and that you do not even find that strange?

 

[muhammad_isa]

My profile? It should be as accessible as any other, through http://www.religiousforums.com/members/luisdantas.16218/

Ah .. it's working now.. I got 'permission denied' earlier on..

Do you realize that you are telling me that you do not find religious acceptance to be a good thing; that you expect others to call Islam refraining from completely outlawing other beliefs "tolerance" because the real thing is Just So Wrong; that nonetheless the fault is supposed to be of men, not the Qur'an; and that you do not even find that strange?

I don't understand the question.

 

[LuisDantas]

Ah .. it's working now.. I got 'permission denied' earlier on..

I am surprised. There is really no reason why it would, except perhaps some sort of technical glitch.

I don't understand the question.

Your post #135 above... it might as well tell me to believe and expect the worst about Islam.

 

[icehorse]

Naturally, I'm a believer. The qur'an doesn't tell the believers to oppress others, regardless of their belief. It does instruct us to enjoin righteousness and forbid evil, so if a person doesn't agree with Almighty God about that which is evil, I can see that would cause a problem..

I'd have to disagree when it comes to oppressing others - by any normal definition of the word "oppress".

 

[icehorse]

I tend to think that things like the Arab Spring and instability in Iran and Saudi Arabia is due to people's rejection of societies that are based upon Hadiths. It's only the groups that resort to Hadiths who commit atrocities and establish oppressive societies.

For instance, nowhere in the Quran is music forbidden which is why the youth in Iran rebel against this harshness. They want music but false Hadiths replacing the Quran deny them this right. All of these oppressive societies are under threat because people are sick of living under not Islam but HADISM a state created in Hadiths.

There are many interpretations of the Quran, and some Muslims say music is forbidden. They might cite 9:69 or 17:64 or 31:6.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'd have to disagree when it comes to oppressing others - by any normal definition of the word "oppress".

I did say a few posts ago, that if you claim that something that Almighty God says is evil, is NOT evil, then you might consider that as oppression. Is that what you mean? Can you give an example, perhaps?

 

[muhammad_isa]

There are many interpretations of the Quran, and some Muslims say music is forbidden. They might cite 9:69 or 17:64 or 31:6.

These verses are not specific to music. Many people may say that "this is forbidden" or "that is forbidden", but I for one, will fight against those people. Many Muslims do not agree with democracy, but Almighty God does not say that we should take the law into our own hands ..
"and Almighty God gives power to whomsoever He wills"

 

[icehorse]

These verses are not specific to music. Many people may say that "this is forbidden" or "that is forbidden", but I for one, will fight against those people. Many Muslims do not agree with democracy, but Almighty God does not say that we should take the law into our own hands ..
"and Almighty God gives power to whomsoever He wills"

Well in the most common English translation (printed 270 million times), 31:6 specifically mentions music.

 

[icehorse]

I did say a few posts ago, that if you claim that something that Almighty God says is evil, is NOT evil, then you might consider that as oppression. Is that what you mean? Can you give an example, perhaps?

Examples of oppression:

- turning non-believers into dhimmis
- making apostasy a crime
- stoning adulteresses
- taking slaves

And on and on and on...

 

[LuisDantas]

I did say a few posts ago, that if you claim that something that Almighty God says is evil, is NOT evil, then you might consider that as oppression. Is that what you mean? Can you give an example, perhaps?

Who is the oppressor and who is the oppressed in that example?