From The Heart of an Honest Muslim!

[muhammad_isa]

Examples of oppression:

- turning non-believers into dhimmis..

Let's take one thing at a time, shall we..

What's oppressive about being a 'dhimmi' in an Islamic state?
Would it be better to live in say Russia or China, and be forced to fight wars that you didn't agree with?

 

[LuisDantas]

Let's take one thing at a time, shall we..

What's oppressive about being a 'dhimmi' in an Islamic state?

The very concept relies on the idea that it should be possible and acceptable for an Islamic State to exist and to regard non-Muslims as people with lesser rights.

Would it be better to live in say Russia or China, and be forced to fight wars that you didn't agree with?

In some senses, yes it would. There would be at least a better chance of individual people acknowledging that it is our full right to rebel against the expectations of the government.

 

[icehorse]

Let's take one thing at a time, shall we..

What's oppressive about being a 'dhimmi' in an Islamic state?
Would it be better to live in say Russia or China, and be forced to fight wars that you didn't agree with?

From my perspective, this is an amazing set of questions. Among other things, it helps me appreciate this forum since it gives us the opportunity to learn about other world views.

More specifically, from my perspective, the idea of living as a dhimmi is completely horrifying. So we have extremely different world views.

 

[Akivah]

Possibly .. but that is not due to Islamic law.
Even in today's world, the rate of tax varies from nation to nation.. Did you know that the rate of income tax in the Irish Republic is around 45%?

Did you know that every Irish resident (no matter their religious beliefs) is subject to that rate of tax, if their income is that high?

Do you believe it is proper to make non-Muslims pay a tax that Muslims don't have to pay?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Did you know that every Irish resident (no matter their religious beliefs) is subject to that rate of tax, if their income is that high?

Do you believe it is proper to make non-Muslims pay a tax that Muslims don't have to pay?

As far as know, the 'dhimmi' status is historical..
To answer your question though, I do, yes .. there is a price for protection/maintaining armies.

Incidentally, I doubt very much whether it would be necessary in states where non-muslims would be a small minority ..

 

[viole]

By Dr. Tawfik Hamid
"I am a Muslim by faith, a Christian by spirit, a Jew by heart, and above all I am a human being."

Dr. Tawfik Hamid forgot to say what he is by reason.

Ciao

- viole

 

[muhammad_isa]

The very concept relies on the idea that it should be possible and acceptable for an Islamic State to exist and to regard non-Muslims as people with lesser rights.

Of course it's accepatable for an Islamic state to exist .. if a nation wants it, why shouldn't they have it?
What rights in particular are you referring to?

 

[LuisDantas]

As far as know, the 'dhimmi' status is historical..

Meaning that it would not exist these days?

To answer your question though, I do, yes .. there is a price for protection/maintaining armies.

Incidentally, I doubt very much whether it would be necessary in states where non-muslims would be a small minority ..

Should it exist at all?

 

[LuisDantas]

Of course it's accepatable for an Islamic state to exist .. if a nation wants it, why shouldn't they have it?

One possible reason would be because it expects to discriminate some of its own people to the point of oppression.

What rights in particular are you referring to?

Equal rights when it comes to due taxes, marriage and property, without regard to what their religious rights are.

 

[muhammad_isa]

One possible reason would be because it expects to discriminate some of its own people to the point of oppression.

Yeah, yeah .. lots of people say that about all sorts of political parties .. it's impossible to please everybody in a democracy by definition ie. people vote for different candidates

There's more of a worry at the moment in Europe that nationalism is reviving once more .. who knows if (as in Germany a few decades ago) they might not 'take power' once more?

If you'd rather have somebody like Hitler over me, be it on your own head!

Equal rights when it comes to due taxes, marriage and property, without regard to what their religious rights are.

No .. you don't really want to be treated equally .. you would like SPECIAL treatment.
Maybe you'd like to drink alcohol or 'be gay' etc. etc.

There's no reason why you shouldn't have this special treatment, as long as it's not in other people's faces..
Financially, there shouldn't be any difference. Some majority Muslim states no doubt DO discriminate between their citizens and ex-pats, for example. This is not Islam, this is culture .. and would you believe 'fear and nationalism'

To be fair though, they might have a point .. some of the 'oil countries' would collapse as we know them without some kind of system of control

 

[LuisDantas]

Yeah, yeah .. lots of people say that about all sorts of political parties .. it's impossible to please everybody in a democracy by definition ie. people vote for different candidates

There's more of a worry at the moment in Europe that nationalism is reviving once more .. who knows if (as in Germany a few decades ago) they might not 'take power' once more?

If you'd rather have somebody like Hitler over me, be it on your own head!

That is a largely unrelated tangent that would distract us from the matter at hand.

No .. you don't really want to be treated equally .. you would like SPECIAL treatment.

Quite wrong. As a matter of fact, it is you who would.

Maybe you don't understand that holding office of president or prime minister is no licence to be a dictator and discriminate on grounds of religious belief?

Maybe you'd like to drink alcohol or 'be gay' etc. etc.

It is not a matter of what or whether I would "like". I find it all-out immoral for any government to attempt to repress homosexuality, and I suppose, even alcohol. Doing so supposedly on God's behalf only aggravates the crime.

(...)
Financially, there shouldn't be any difference. Some majority Muslim states no doubt DO discriminate between their citizens and ex-pats, for example. This is not Islam, this is culture ..

So you are saying that the dhimmitude taxes are not demanded by the Qur'an?

and would you believe 'fear and nationalism'

Sorry, I do not understand what you mean here.

To be fair though, they might have a point .. some of the 'oil countries' would collapse as we know them without some kind of system of control

Nor here.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Maybe you don't understand that holding office of president or prime minister is no licence to be a dictator and discriminate on grounds of religious belief?

I don't know what you are talking about .. if a nation wants an Islamic state then who are you to say that they shouldn't? I'm not talking about military coups, I believe in democracy.
By definition, Islamic law is not a 'politically correct' western secular system
Neither does it have to be (or SHOULD be) a dictatorship.

It is not a matter of what or whether I would "like". I find it all-out immoral for any government to attempt to repress homosexuality, and I suppose, even alcohol.

I'm not surprised. You do not judge what is moral by the standards of what is revealed in Scripture. We don't have to go back more than a century to find that the majority would NOT agree with your viewpoint. Furthermore, I wouldn't say that the world is a safer, or more moral place to live in these days, overall..

So you are saying that the dhimmitude taxes are not demanded by the Qur'an?

No they are not .. they were interim measures at the end of major wars..
Have you ever been to a so called 'Muslim country' ?
Are there many Muslims in the place that you live?

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't know what you are talking about .. if a nation wants an Islamic state then who are you to say that they shouldn't? I'm not talking about military coups, I believe in democracy.
By definition, Islamic law is not a 'politically correct' western secular system
Neither does it have to be (or SHOULD be) a dictatorship.

What is it then? What is the third option?

I'm not surprised. You do not judge what is moral by the standards of what is revealed in Scripture.

Indeed, I do not. That would be just wrong, even if I was a believer in the God of Ibrahim.

We don't have to go back more than a century to find that the majority would NOT agree with your viewpoint. Furthermore, I wouldn't say that the world is a safer, or more moral place to live in these days, overall..

Then I suppose I have to hold my ground and do whatever I can to stop your viewpoint from succeeding.

No they are not .. they were interim measures at the end of major wars..

I will have to research this matter further, then.

Have you ever been to a so called 'Muslim country' ?

No, never. Not looking forward to it, either.

Are there many Muslims in the place that you live?

No, there are not. It is easy enough to find some if I put my mind to it, but they are very much a minority, and mostly keep to themselves.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What is it then? What is the third option?

If it's part of a democracy, then elections have to be held.

No, there are not. It is easy enough to find some if I put my mind to it, but they are very much a minority, and mostly keep to themselves.

I see .. I live near Birmingahm in UK and there are 10's of thousands of Muslims .. they're very visible. Perhaps you would feel more relaxed about Islam if you were in my situation.

Thay haven't got 2 heads .. they are human beings
I can understand your worries (about Islam) when observing the political situation in the world today .. it's horrific!

 

[LuisDantas]

If it's part of a democracy, then elections have to be held.

Again: that is NO license to dictatorship.

 

[LuisDantas]

I see .. I live near Birmingahm in UK and there are 10's of thousands of Muslims .. they're very visible. Perhaps you would feel more relaxed about Islam if you were in my situation.

I doubt it. I deal with Christians all the time, and I have seen plenty of Muslim apologism as well.

Thay haven't got 2 heads .. they are human beings

You are really misjudging me, you know.

I can understand your worries (about Islam) when observing the political situation in the world today .. it's horrific!

Indeed.

 

[icehorse]

muhammad_isa said:

I'm not surprised. You do not judge what is moral by the standards of what is revealed in Scripture. We don't have to go back more than a century to find that the majority would NOT agree with your viewpoint. Furthermore, I wouldn't say that the world is a safer, or more moral place to live in these days, overall..

I think this helps us get to some important differences in our values.

I value:

- free speech
- freedom to choose my religion
- freedom to choose not to be religious at all
- freedom to acquire new knowledge without constraint
- equality for all people
- the separation of church and state

Based on what I know of Islam and of your posts, I'd guess that you value:

- blasphemy laws
- the goal of Islam ruling the world
- a world of knowledge limited to what is approved by scripture
- the idea that different people have different rights and freedoms (so some people will have fewer freedoms)
- the idea that religious law should be the law of the land.

(Correct me if I've guessed wrong.)

I appreciate your honesty, and I have to say that I will never submit to your set of values. While I don't claim that secularism is perfect, I do claim that it's by far the best system mankind has ever devised.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Again: that is NO license to dictatorship.

You have got a fixed idea in your mind, and that's it.
What is it about the word democracy that you don't understand? Why does a government have to have secular laws instead of Islamic laws? Democracy is not defined by secularism.

 

[LuisDantas]

You have got a fixed idea in your mind, and that's it.

If said idea would happen to be "democracy is no license for the majority to oppress the minority", then I am guilty as charged.

What is it about the word democracy that you don't understand? Why does a government have to have secular laws instead of Islamic laws?

So that religious minorities are always capable of being heard, and in order to avoid the temptation of theocracy.

Democracy is not defined by secularism.

No, but secularism is a prerequisite for it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Based on what I know of Islam and of your posts, I'd guess that you value:

- blasphemy laws
- the goal of Islam ruling the world
- a world of knowledge limited to what is approved by scripture
- the idea that different people have different rights and freedoms (so some people will have fewer freedoms)
- the idea that religious law should be the law of the land.

(Correct me if I've guessed wrong.)

I value truth..
I don't like blasphemy .. I haven't thought about legislation .. I would hope that people could be civil and not challenge the 'status quo'

I don't have a goal of Islam ruling the world .. that's God's business, NOT mankind's
knowledge is knowledge, surely .. do I think that the internet should be moderated? It's necessary, as the moderators on this forum know. What should be deleted is a subject in itself.

re different rights etc. there has to be some sort of practical arrangement, yes .. it doesn't include taking away voting rights..
Yes, of course I'm in favour of religious law

I appreciate your honesty, and I have to say that I will never submit to your set of values. While I don't claim that secularism is perfect, I do claim that it's by far the best system mankind has ever devised.

I don't see how secularism COULD be perfect. It is only a reflection of 'current opinions' .. based on .. what?
It's democracy that I value.