From the neutral country - Switzerland

[greatcalgarian]

Countless experts have already done this, but because they don't see any evidence that the buildings were brought down by explosives, they must all be "in on it".

So thousands of scientists at civil engineering departments and at NIST and Scientific American and Popular Mechanics and Skeptic are all "in on it".

It is very easy to quote "countless experts have done this". List me their name, their claim, their published work etc. Tell me frankly, you could have read Scientific American, and can you tell me which MIT professor that Scientific American quote regarding the tower collapse? If you know which professor, have you actually read who he has written? If you have, then I shall point out the relevant part why this professor could be "in on it", or he is simply stupid and try to make a name for himself, in the same class as Steven Jones, one supporting the government, one trying to pull the leg of the government.
Have you read the complete article of Scientific America, and the paper in Popular Mechanics, or the book by Popular Mechanics. Are you perfectly happy with the arguement? Have you read any counter arguement to those two Government propaganda article?

Those countless experts did not see explosive evidence is because they refused to see it. Like the three monkeys, see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil. They need their comfort zone to survive, or else they will go crazy. They are also very lazy. They do not investigate whether the total amount of heat energy available from the plane striking and the burning fuel (some even claim furniture can produced large amount of heat) is enough to rasie the temperature of the steel to the point of failure. Most government supporting scientist never consider the heat lost, the very good heat conducting nature of steel etc.
To give an analogy, which is not scientifically exact as in the case of WTC burning, you use gas burner to cook your food, or boil water. What is the hottest temperature of the flame? What is the hottest temperature reach by the kettle before boiling? Which part of the kettle is hotter than the others?
You should note that the gas burner flame is very close to your kettle in order to be able to heat it up effectively. Now the burning of the spilled kerosene from the plane, how do they burn? By gravity they have to lie level on the floor (subject to being contained in by other obstructing things into a pool), how tall do you think this flame can be? Have you attended fire fighting exercise, where petrol was place ontop of a tank of water, ignited, and your demonstrator using a fire extinguisher to put it out? So this burning pool of kerosene has to be really a huge flame in order to heat the floor on top, where the insulating material has been knocked off by the impact, so claimed the NIST.
Now even if we have good heating, the steel columns, beams etc are interconnected, and heat can be conducted rapidly away to other members.
The you have to know the thermal conductivity of steel, and find out the cross sectional area to calculate the heat flow from this heated member to the neighbour etc. The higher the locally heated member, the faster will be the heat conduction away, and temperature may not rise without levelling out! Then you have the radiation heat lost, and the convective heat lost.

Try to think about it. Those other tall building that burned for days would have the interior reached much higher temperature than that in WTC.

The dense black smoke indicate the peak combustion is over. There is no shortage of oxygen in the case of WTC, since the plane has plowed and created holes from one side to the other in one tower, and though the other tower only has a huge opening in the entrance, other windows and structures were also shattered, so that there is no shortage of free flow of supply of oxygen for the burning. In fact, if we can have all the information available, we can calculate when the kerosene fuel was completely consumed by making certain assumption, and it should be accurate to within 10 minutes of time frame.

Now back to your expert, if you know who he is, the MIT professor. He said he did not know how much fuel the plane was carrying, so he has to make an assumption of 3/4 tank, half tank etc. So can you see how non-scientific this professor can be? He could try to get the information, as the airport certainly must have record of how much fuel in the tank of the plane before taking off. I think either he was negligent, or he tried, and then the government told him to be non-commital, and just take a guess. Or esle, there is a conspiracy of the government refusing to let a scientist have all the facts to make his study. Still think there is no conspiracy?

 

[greatcalgarian]

Why do you deserve any acknowledgement of what the people who have done yeoman's work???

For somebody with as idiotic as your views, you deserve to have as little information as possible.

Wow, thanking for your kind way of educating me. Idiotic views like mine definitely do not deserve any information from great guy like you. That I have to agree. I better run for my life.:run:

By the way, what is "yeoman's"? English is not my mother tongue, and my vocabuary is limited. Mind just educating me on this one? Many thanks.:bow:

Anyway, next time please do not waste your time debating views of mine which you have the opinion as being idiotic. It will be just a waste of your time, waste of my time, waste of the moderators' time (they have to check to make sure there is no swear word in the post), and the waste of all RF members time to read through all this garbage.

 

[greatcalgarian]

It's amazing that the godlike, all-powerful entity you refer to as "the government" can cover all this up but they can't conceal it when the President has oral sex with an intern in the oval office, or when the President's daughters go on a drinking binge out of the country.

The same answer, it is a matter of comfort zone. No body bother to cover up for all those sex gossips or true story, as it is not doing any harm to their own ego of American being great. By agreeing to think about the possibility of their own trusted government could have done such a bad things is completely beyong their comfort zone, and they just mentally blocked out the idea, and then search for information to help them to see that no such evil things existed. This is the majority of the people still agreeing to the government story, and just do not want to learn the truth.

For most others who know that there is a conspiracy, many could have come to learn the truth after the 9/11, and then prefer to keep quiet because it is not really going to help America in any way by going around talking bad about your own government. These group could just be the silent one who did not come up with any stand or statement.
Then there is a group that does not know anything, and just want to make a name for themselves, and so went around making up statement supporting the government.
Then there is a group that does not know anything, but wanted to get some favour from the government, so they go around supporting the government.
Then there is a group that knows that there is a real conspiracy, but being receiving grant or money or business from the government, will have to either keep quiet, or voice some support for the government story.

For the list of over thousand names claimed to have worked on NIST report, if all of them can be given the assurance that whatever they say will not have any backfire, you will then know how many of them really think that fire brougth down WTC.

 

[greatcalgarian]

What's even more amazing is that you can believe it without the testimony of any whistle-blowers, without any incriminating documents or recordings, without any explanation of how the "black-op" of 9/11 was physically carried out, and by whom, or how many.

I do not think I want to answer to the above.

Reason: complete factually wrong statement. For example:"believe it without the testimony of any whistle-blowers"
No whistle-blowers?
No incriminating evidence?

It is more of a LIHOP for many of the main actors of the government, and there is a small number of MIHOP, who the LIHOP government did not even know. And when everything happened, the LIHOP has to accept the fact, and cover up for the MIHOP. So how can we have the number, the name etc?

If the most powerful intelligent aagency of the world, the CIA could have got the name of the 19 Arabs wrong (NOT ALL, just a few), how can the ordinary citizens with limited access to information find out the name, the number of people in the LIHOP and MIHOP?

Let us take Steven Jones, for example, he might have found a small leak in the whole cover up. But that leak was quickly mended. Get him sacked from the University, and he can no longer do any scientific study to proof his case. Then gather a lot people to flood the web with negative news on him. Then use the internal mole the government has planted in the 9/11 movement to discredit him, etc. This is 1984 in USA, believe me. Big brother is watching, but this Big brother is not the scary one in G. Orwell 1984 where he tried to paint a bad picture of the Soviet. This big brother is your capitalist system of government operation, where the big brother control the media, and hypnotized the population wherever possible, and if not possible, use threat to silent them, and last resort, make them disappeared from this world, as claimed by Anyscientologist is his famous prison camp somewhere in America.

 

[greatcalgarian]

You can't even refer to any of the credible hardworking investigative reporters who have uncovered political scandals in the past

Watergate investigator has support from the other camp, as this is a political fight between the two party.

Who is the investigative reporter to dig into 9/11 truth, there is none? May be. Those that did it have already receive the whacko branded onto their forehead. Do you know this guy MICHAEL C. RUPPERT? Whacko from your point of view? Do you know what happened to him? Tell me if you know.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/120206_mike_canada.shtml

 

[greatcalgarian]

Instead you simply link to a bunch of websites that posit a "conspiracy-of-the-gaps" that presumes to answer any unexplained aspect of the incredibly complex event that was 9/11. It's almost all hearsay and wild speculation without any actual evidence.

I have to admit that some of the websites on 9/11 are created by crazy people with either the motive of making fun of those who visited their websites and get caught believing what they posted there. A seasoned web surfer like you should not be caught by that.

I have posted many different websites on 9/11, some may contain materials of disinformation. But most of the others, I tried to find supporting evidence, for example website that provide link to MSM sites, quoting the story published by these MSM. So unless you tell me that MSM are also whaco people, then we no longer have any yardstick to base on our investigation of the truth?

Try this one:
www.911truth.org - One of the most complete and well organized sites on the subject. Many links, articles, research interviews, including a free 20 min video with Michael Meacher, UK Parliament, and former German Secretary of Defense. Source of many good books and DVD’s on the subject, and updating of same.

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041221155307646
40 questions for you to find answer to.

And make sure you do not fall into this type of trap:

Wildlife to be Avoided

There are a good number of irrational and unsupportable 9/11 theories and theorists "out there" that have been used to great effect to discredit 9/11 truth advocates as whole (Check out Rule 4 in "The Twenty-five Rules of Disinformation" to grasp the tactic and then watch it in action in Popular Mechanics' recent 9/11 smear). We are therefore also concerned about these spurious plot lines and how they are exploited, and we criticize many on our site. Every large and growing movement picks up a few noisy dunces or provocateurs in the margins, but they do not in any way invalidate the well researched evidence at its core. We only pray that those drawn to the 9/11 issue by sensationalist claims will stay long enough to learn the less theatrical but equally damning truth.

 

[greatcalgarian]

I recommend this web:

http://www.wanttoknow.info/911information

and this is not too bad:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project


Anyway, please help me and tell me exactly which are the websites that fall into your claim of:
bunch of websites that posit a "conspiracy-of-the-gaps"

 

[greatcalgarian]

This is the Web page that contained untruth story or arguement, so be careful when you read this, and do not use this web as a supporting evidence that all 9/11 stories (other than the government story) are created by whacko:

http://www.serendipity.li/wtc.htm

This web page claimed that it has been censored by wikipedia, meaning that any reference to this web page will be removed in nanosecond time from the wikipedia, believe it or not.

Anyway, the half truth and half lie in this website make it very difficult to believe anything, so the truth will also be considered as lie, and hence I suspect this is a counter 9/11 website by some government agency, though i have no proof, as usual, just idoitic ranting as observed by several smart and observant RF members.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Recall lesson #1 from the Evolution vs. "Intelligent Design" controversy: the inability to explain something is not evidence for something.

You want to tell me that the inability to explain satisfactorily how the WTC collapse by the government cannot be used as the evidence to speculate or used as supporting evidence that there could be other reasons or explanation of explosion?

Or you want to tell me that the inability of the 9/11 conspirator to explain how the explosive was planted means that it is evidence that there is no explosive being planted there?

You cannot have it both way, you know.

 

[greatcalgarian]

If bombs were used to take down the towers, why all the effort to make it look like planes did it? Why not just use bombs, and blame it on Bin Laden? The WTC was even bombed by Bin Laden before.

A quick answer will be the New Pearl Harbour.

WTC bombed by bin Laden in 1993? Wow, I do not think even the CIA and FBI linked that to bin Ladin. Anyway, that is another conspiracy:

Allegations of FBI foreknowledge
In the course of the trial it was revealed that the FBI had an informant, a former Egyptian army officer named Emad A. Salem. Salem claims to have informed the FBI of the plot to bomb the towers as early as February 6, 1992. Salem's role as informant allowed the FBI to quickly pinpoint the conspirators out of the hundreds of possible suspects.

Salem, initially believing that this was to be a sting operation, claimed that the FBI's original plan was for Salem to supply the conspirators with a harmless powder instead of actual explosive to build their bomb, but that the FBI chose to use him for other purposes instead. [6] He secretly recorded hundreds of hours of telephone conversations with his FBI handlers; reported by Ralph Blumenthal in the New York Times, Oct. 28, 1993, section A,Page 1.[7]

And the American never learned a lesson:
http://www.meib.org/articles/0106_ir1.htm

Anyway, can you tell me what Bin Laden was doing in 1993? Is the famous organization, repeatedly announced in the MSM, Al Qaeda existed in 1993?

Actually there is a simple answer some one has given to your question. If you just planted bomb to bring the tower down, would anyone believe that the Al Qaeda (or bin Ladin, may be he is the Alladin gene) has magical pwer and can avoid all the security of the WTC to place the very advanced explosive at the strategy point in the WTC? Now we know that some cell in US has been planning of using plane to attack. Let us find out when they are going to do it, and then do some planting of the high technology explosive with proper remote control. We need to have expert Structural Engineers and Demolition expert to help to calculate the requirement, and we also know that plane alone will not bring down the building. That bloody building designer has already stated that after the 1993 bombing. So to make sure it works this time, we need to place the right amount around the floors where the plane will hit. Now how do we ensure the Arab terrorist pilot will strike the correct floor? Perhaps we supplied them with the navigation control like an autopilot, which they can be teach to attached to the instrument panel. Or perhaps we can placed some remote control on the plane. let us supply information to these 19 Arab on the best day to carry out that. make sure they are trained to turn the transponder off etc etc. These are all MIHOP conspiracy theories.
LIHOP will not be able to explain how the WTC collapse with just the plane hitting. That is why we have MIHOP. However you then believe the intelligent design arguement, so it makes life complicated for me to explain to you.

Now the counter question is: If 9/11 was solely planned and executed by bin Ladin and his gang, do you think bin Ladin knows that WTC1 and WTC2 will collapse if he successfully directed his 19 comrades to get four planes, and then slam one each into WTC1 and WTC2?

UBL: (...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for.

My theory is that LIHOP let the planes hit the tower, thinking that this will create a good enough incident for the New Pearl Harbour. However, there is a group in the conspiracy government gang (the terrible unthinkable MIHOP mad guys) that came up with the idea to enlarge the incident, to totally collapse the building. For two reasons:
(1) to ensure the dramatic effect imparted to the American public
(2) to allow easy insurance claim and rebuilding. Remember how much it cost to repair the Umpire State after being hit by the B52bomber by accident? If these Arab flow planes just did damage to the tower, the repair will be too costly, and troublesome. Let us ensure the complete collapse.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Who's that guy in all those videos claiming to be Bin Laden and claiming responsibility for the attacks?

I have answered this question many times before. Please spend five minutes of your time going over this web. Just promise me you will read every word in that page. If you have time check out the link provided, or take some key words from that page, google and find more information. See whether you find any government refuting the claim in that web page:
http://www.911review.com/myth/binladen.html

I like Bin Ladin putting on weight, at least he has a good chance to die of high blood and heart attack like many obese people:

Here's 5 Osama's - which is the odd one out?



Even Mr Magoo would have to say that Osama 'E' stands out like a sore thumb, and this is the man on the "confession" tape. Between the nose and the cheeks it is clear that this man is NOT Osama.

PS unfortunately I think I have lost the functionality of copy and paste picture from this web page

 

[greatcalgarian]

Many previous government scandals have been uncovered in recent years. These include the death of that special forces guy in Afghanistan who used to be an NFL player (what was his name again?), the Jessica Lynch controversy, Abu Ghraib, Gitmo abuses, CIA kidnapping people and sending them abroad to be tortured, secret CIA prisons in Europe, the massacre of an Iraqi family in Haditha by Marines, the lack of proper care at a large U.S. Army hospital for vets, etc. etc. These have been revealed by internal government investigations (congressional, military, etc), government whistleblowers, classified documents being leaked to the media, credible investigative journalists, public hearings, and so on. These activities produced lots of evidence in the form of documents and testimony for the scandalous activities. Where is the evidence that 9/11 was perpetrated by people in the government?

Has or have the true killer(s) of Kennedy being caught? Or you are happy with the current normally accepted version of his murderer? Do you really think that is the truth?

So not all lie can be exposed, and there is no way we can know all the truth, at least not officially.....

 

[greatcalgarian]

What were the 9/11 hijackers doing in the U.S., going to flight school, practicing martial arts, and so on? What happened to them?

They were patsies, that is one theory.
They were pawns in a big chess set, being fought out by Bush and Osama if you like to think it that way, but I rather think that the hand behind this game of chess is the White Neo Cons and the Middle East Muslim Fundamentalists, Bush may not be actually the master that can control every move in the chess set, and bin Ladin is just a shadow created by CIA to fill in the gap. Remember CIA has openly admitted that they have no evidence to link bin Ladin to 9/11. Show me if you have the CIA web page that said otherwise, or some US government paper.

 

[greatcalgarian]

I know some firefighters in Dayton, and they took 9/11 very seriously. I can only imagine how emotional firefighters, police and rescue workers in New York must feel. If they thought there was no way the planes could have been responsible for bringing down the buildings, why aren't they angrily speaking out in droves?

They have, but I am tired of providing you with the link of website, you will just claim that those sites are bogus sites etc.

 

[greatcalgarian]

These are just a few of many many questions any government conspiracy 9/11 theory would have to explain by invoking the evidence (not by invoking ad-hoc hypotheses that just keep expanding the size and scope of the conspiracy exponentially).

There are many questions that 9/11 victim and family have raised, but no answer whatsoever was given by the government, not even the MSM.
If the government can ignore all those good question, why do you keep asking questions that may not have an answer from the victims of 9/11 because the government kept the facts hidden away from them?

 

[greatcalgarian]

You can't just ask questions that most unqualified people can't answer, and then when you don't get an answer you interpret that as "evidence" for a government coverup, as if that were the default explanation. It most certainly is not the mainstream explanation among those engineers and scientists qualified to analyze the collapse. It isn't the mainstream explanation among investigative journalists with their "inside" gov. sources. It isn't the explanation of independent investigations by Congress, which have uncovered mischief in the executive branch in the past.

I am not clear as to exactly what your point is in the above paragraph. Perhaps after writing a long long post, you are a bit confused. Or perhaps it is me getting tired after posting all those replies full of conspiracy. I shall come back to the above point, if I can figure out what you are trying to say another time. Late for me. Time to sleep. Goodnite, and rest well, there will not be another 9/11 soon, so long as the American keep the neo con away from the office. For example, the success re-grabbing of the political power by teh democrat prevented Bush to indulge in another war event with Iran, and also forced and tied his hand to negociate peace with N. Korea to resolve the Nuclear issue.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Another proof of government control over media, look at what happen in wikipedia:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wikipedia_binladen.html

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi greatcalgarian,

Very good. In that case, you agree or are of the opinion that Muslim terrorists have superior intelligent information and ability to carry out the 9/11 attack overcoming all the US network of counter intelligent? (Your answer: NO! No! NO! It was the democrats who cut away the fund for the intelligent, and that is why we were not able to stop them. Now Bush has done all that is necessary such as the Patriot act etc, and also even gone to their nest in Afghan and Iraq to eradicate their brain centre, though this Ladin guy is a bit sneakish, we still did not find him, but we will one day)

Okay, maybe this post I can have my own answers, LOL! I guess I don't share your belief that the American government is an imprenetable fortress that when attacked it proves that it did it to itself. Don't get me wrong, the American government is powerful, but not as powerful as you make it seen.

I do have a question; don't we have audio of the terrorists on the planes? Don't we have audio of the Muslim terrorists shouting "God is great" just before the plane crashes into the Pennsylvania field? This was all set up? And what about the calls coming from the planes, where people said that they saw Middle Eastern men take over the plane, they are lying? What possible pay off would a passenger of a plane have to lie about terrorists hijaking a plane and then going to their deaths?

Another question; were the Jews involved at all in this plot? Did thousands of Jews not go to work on 9/11 like those Middle Easterners in the midrasas so eloquently tell us?

 

[greatcalgarian]

Hi greatcalgarian,



Okay, maybe this post I can have my own answers, LOL! I guess I don't share your belief that the American government is an imprenetable fortress that when attacked it proves that it did it to itself. Don't get me wrong, the American government is powerful, but not as powerful as you make it seen.

I do have a question; don't we have audio of the terrorists on the planes? Don't we have audio of the Muslim terrorists shouting "God is great" just before the plane crashes into the Pennsylvania field? This was all set up? And what about the calls coming from the planes, where people said that they saw Middle Eastern men take over the plane, they are lying? What possible pay off would a passenger of a plane have to lie about terrorists hijaking a plane and then going to their deaths?

Another question; were the Jews involved at all in this plot? Did thousands of Jews not go to work on 9/11 like those Middle Easterners in the midrasas so eloquently tell us?

We also have reports of five Israel dancing with joy and filming the WTC event. Check your source of information before claiming those are facts and what actually happened. Part of your statement is true, and no one is claiming that it is a setup. No 9/11 'conspirators' ever claimed that there were no 'Arab' taking over the plane as far as information that the government allowed to be made public.

Your whole reply is "Strawmen" technique.:bow:
You have perfected the techniqe.

“The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position [and the evidence supporting that position] and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.”

I have posted before, using Jews and raising anti-semetic feeling is the disinformation technique by the US government to cover up the truth of 9/11. So if you read any story of Jews in the 9/11, it is pure disinformation by the CIA/NeoCon, I am not sure which one is the perpetrator.

 

[greatcalgarian]

You can't even refer to any of the credible hardworking investigative reporters who have uncovered political scandals in the past (oh wait, I forgot, every news outlet including the NY Times, the Washington Post, the BBC, CNN, are "in on it" too....none of those outlets would EVER fault the American government for anything, would they? What would they have to gain, other than selling an unimaginable number of newspapers?)

http://911review.com/disinfo/press/index.html

Mainstream Press Attacks
The American news media has functioned to perpetuate the 9/11 cover-up in two main respects: it has promoted unquestioning acceptance of the official attack myth, and it has attacked skepticism of that myth. The attacks on skeptics have consistently used deception to misrepresent the 9/11 Truth Movement, pejoratively labeling all skeptics as "conspiracy theorists" and disingenuously implying that they embrace only the most absurd theories. Judging from the number of attack pieces that appeared in 2004 and 2005, this effort appears to be influenced by the success of the 9/11 Truth Movement in gaining visibility.

Here we examine themes of the attacks in the mainstream press year after year starting in 2004, the first year in which the existence of the 9/11 Truth Movement was acknowledged in the mainstrea press.