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Frustrated athiest asks why do you believe in God?

rational experiences

Veteran Member
In a lying human theist mind he said I O ring theoried how to use transmitted signals to a crystal tipped pyramid to break open an atom O. By transmitting causes. O masses of circles. Thesis. Formula. Calculated.

Underground dust converting mass.

One circuit only. Temples. So I collected the charge stored inside my pyramid. Technology.

Vats like batteries but liquid whatever. Always man's manipulated mass status first. What science is.

I theory today now by particles above pressure cooled gases gas and particles that I must shut off that atom.

It's dangerous. Pretending earths heavens should transport itself back into a sealed atom.

As if man invented the atom himself.

The position we live within as a theist lies pretending a man is God the creator of the atom.

At and OM he says the voice of God.

I must release...which he did. Possessed that now he must put it back closed sealed.

Is the theists humans self possession mind warning today.

As taught by our holy father.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
It sucks when better informed people don't agree with your contempt for science.

Science and reason are the only things between us and superstition. It's you with a contempt for science.

And an even greater contempt for religion.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Science and reason are the only things between us and superstition. It's you with a contempt for science.

And an even greater contempt for religion.
How does he have a contempt for science? And he may have a contempt for some religions. I do not think that he has a contempt for all religions.

I have a contempt for the "Islam" of the Taliban. That does not mean that I have a contempt for all Islam, I do not. I have a contempt for the "Christianity" of Kent Hovind. I do not have a contempt for all Christianity.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Science and reason are the only things between us and superstition.
This is why critical thinkers can't believe in Gods and superstition given there isn't adequate evidence.

It's you with a contempt for science.
There is nothing in my comments that warrant this assertion.

And an even greater contempt for religion.
I explain why religious concepts and claims lack adequate evidence to judge true. That isn't contempt.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Men said I knew science. My pyramid ∆ toppled it's nose point sacrificed. As once in the Moses review I tried to convert a mountain by thesis of UFO ark causes into a volcano.

The Ain by melt disintegration O ark hole true. Equalled a man tried to get event by invent the beginning body where a gas came from in heaven.

Where earth gases came from.

I pressurised the pyramid.

I pumped water over its facure. It still fell. I learnt.

So science says a hole in the ground is a good place to build his new machine.

Preceding updated pyramids non used models reversal.

It's only science by scientists. In relativity life.

Yet two types dusts taken are melted one cooled ...machine body the other a space hole conversion cooled reaction equals a healed cooled replaced melted body put into hole.

By human men physically doing it. What invention by physical manipulation is first.

His thesis thought taking particles reacting putting taking changing a hole then a cold hole in space is sludge. To then causing returned mass.

His melted particles cooled rebuilt machine body as if he giant sized formed reaction as I then pressurised the nuclear reaction himself. I then put it back together. Placing machine in cave hole.

Notice side hole is themed safe.

All thought of mostly in a physically acted out choice himself. Not any theory.

Reasoned he does not own nor control nor react... or be in cosmic space.

He does it vicariously he says.

Most of it physical.

A physical man not a magical man put it back. By manipulating mass himself.

So physical man lying tells physician man he lied.

He built model power plant on updated claim it should work by this new technique not old terms. Power plant. No im not doing wrong I didnt rebuild pyramid temple claim.

Modern days temple pyramid idea based on old model describes man didn't agree to rebuild temple science.

Now he owns a new machine that contradicts his own agreement.

The data thesis begins with man making particles cool pressured to build a new machine himself in science strings. New machine after I used most of the pyramid thesis in my power plant.

Father said dinosaur life died in a humid no ice atmosphere. Star fell volcanoes erupted earthquakes ice gained ice melted ice refroze.

If a human theories I can give back dinosaur life they owned scaly hard skin cold blood.

Claiming a humid atmosphere won't kill us.

I think all the reactions in the atmosphere that was humid owning the dinosaur life not human says we will all die.

So you state. If a human gets bones changed.. grows horns and scales tree like or hairy or giantly tall isn't that proof earth hasn't healed it's heavens to a stable state Christ?

And didn't you promise to never do nuclear science ever again?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
In a basic human summation whatever liquid in vats stored energy in his applied old science..

Science today tried to put that thesis into just our heavens gas place. Falsely.

Men manipulated various bodies to perform first science by machine.

Men today knew to have a machine powered that some type of power method was used and had to exist first. Storage.

It involved the pyramid.

Yet all earth masses were used to invent the science first.

Before he could machine react.

If men had to physically change earth mass themselves there is no I will just invent beginnings of science machine energy use myself.

As if power ran direct naturally into a machine first.

That claim is I will supersede the need for a machine to be plugged into an electric source. And channel it direct out of thin air.

What magic meant.

Why he proved I claim whalla. Allah. As my magic.

Which infers he thinks we breathe in electricity. Ah breaths.

As he claims the pyramids nose point gained the charge. When the pyramid crystal gained the transmission which heated up the crystal also into the charge exact nose point to mass change. So it burst blew.

It's why they pressurised stone pretending it was a big crystal. Why they kept it cooled. Yet they couldn't cool the crystal otherwise it wouldn't receive...transmit.

Why he proved his conscious mind split to think we breathe in at nose power. Oxygenation was generated.

Power at nose pyramid point was generated.

Two different topics as memory I generated.

It was the pyramid thesis he falsely named nose point.

He was told never displace the origin word meaning. Yet he uses one word and might give it four or five meanings.

Which proved to himself a brain mind scattered event...changed ET.

It is by word use that he used first to theory that we then use last to tell him he is lying.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
like I said... an effort of futility on both sides.

I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. Perhaps that is indeed an exercise in futility.

You are going all over the place and you haven't landed on any one point.
My post is dealing with 2 rather simple points only.

1. Not doing X is not a type of "doing X"

2. beliefs inform actions; non-beliefs inform non-actions

The only reason I elaborate to make those 2 points extra clear is because you seem to be rather stubborn.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You could say that those who believe in God or gods, go through the same process of elimination of the other faiths.

You could say that, but by definition you'ld be wrong in 99.99% of cases, as the vast majority of theists didn't "pick" their religion at all, nor have they even seriously contemplated any other religion...

Instead, their religion was picked for them by their parents.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
So how do you prove abstractions like "evolution" or "gravity"? We can see masses attract but "gravity" is just a word if we don't know what it is.

1. scientific theories can't be "proven", only supported

2. you support them by testing the predictions that naturally flow from the theory. Like when evolution predicts that if whales evolved from land mammals, fossils from various stages over the course of millions of years should show the transition from feet to flippers. Like that picture I showed you, depicting exactly that. That, along with millions of other datapoints (from fossils, from real-time experiment, from geographic distribution, from comparative anatomy, from genetics, from comparative genomics, etc etc etc).

Tell Kuhn that.

Who?

You just ignore every argument to the contrary

What argument?

...I might add that it sounds like you must now know just about everything from the non-existence of God to why the sun comes up every single morning.

The sun doesn't come up. Instead, the earth rotates on its axis.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
1. Not doing X is not a type of "doing X"

which is completely not understandable.

2. beliefs inform actions; non-beliefs inform non-actions

The is like saying if there is an action, there is no equal an opposite reaction.

Even doing nothing for lack of belief can be the opposite reaction for doing something because of belief -- both have consequences.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
God is Father. But the son is not the father. The Father cannot be your friend because he is your father. So, Jesus!
No need to be frustrated Jesus was neither son of a father, nor the father of any son, Jesus was son of Mary only, I understand. Right?

Regards
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
which is completely not understandable.

Is it? What do you find difficult about it?

Is "not walking" a type of moving?
Is "not collecting stamps" a hobby?
Is "barefoot" a type of shoe?
Is "off" a TV channel?

The is like saying if there is an action, there is no equal an opposite reaction.

No. It's rather like saying that if there is no action, there is no reaction.

If you do not believe you are sick, you will not be going to the doctor.
If you do not believe a fist is swinging towards your nose, you will not be dodging.


Even doing nothing for lack of belief can be the opposite reaction for doing something because of belief -- both have consequences.

The point keeps flying so far above your head, you're not even seeing it.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
How does he have a contempt for science?

Science is a methodology. Any subversion of this methodology shows ignorance, contempt, or both. Any belief in science, its methodology, or its theory is contempt.

The first thing you're supposed to learn in science is to make good observation and keep an open mind.

Some seem to think that "science" is the use of semantics and theory to beat up non-believers. Rather than responding to arguments they cite interpretations, paradigms, and beliefs.

If you can't explain something to a child then you don't understand it yourself.

Rather than discussion they continually cite proof for their positions and tell you that nothing can be proved other than what they already believe.

It's all semantics and circular arguments none of which have anything whatsoever to do with actual science.

Everything in science is supposed to have experiment as its bedrock and then each individual is supposed to build models from this with as little belief as humanly possible. But many peoples' models are composed chiefly of belief.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Is "barefoot" a type of shoe?

This is all semantics.

We have words that mean things. "Theist" means someone who believes in God. "Agnostic" means an individual who doesn't know if God exists or not. "Atheist" means someone believes there is no God.

Of course we all use words and language differently but this is the meaning of the words.

Barefoot is most assuredly a means of traveling on foot.

Inductive logic often turns around and bites you. This is because word meanings are naturally ephemeral and semantical arguments are easily invented to prove anything or to disprove everything.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Science is a methodology. Any subversion of this methodology shows ignorance, contempt, or both. Any belief in science, its methodology, or its theory is contempt.

The first thing you're supposed to learn in science is to make good observation and keep an open mind.

Some seem to think that "science" is the use of semantics and theory to beat up non-believers. Rather than responding to arguments they cite interpretations, paradigms, and beliefs.

If you can't explain something to a child then you don't understand it yourself.

Rather than discussion they continually cite proof for their positions and tell you that nothing can be proved other than what they already believe.

It's all semantics and circular arguments none of which have anything whatsoever to do with actual science.

Everything in science is supposed to have experiment as its bedrock and then each individual is supposed to build models from this with as little belief as humanly possible. But many peoples' models are composed chiefly of belief.
" Science is a methodology."

Yes, science is a useful tool/methodology to know the physical and material aspects of the things, but it utterly fails (due to its defined limits) in ethical, moral and spiritual aspects of life, please. Right?
It is not good for everything, please. Right?

Regards
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
This is all semantics.

It isn't.
Not playing soccer is not a sport.
Not accepting the claims of religion X, is not a belief.

We have words that mean things.

Yes. And disbeliefs aren't beliefs.


"Theist" means someone who believes in God. "Agnostic" means an individual who doesn't know if God exists or not. "Atheist" means someone believes there is no God.

And I'm an agnostic atheist.
I don't know if gods are real and I don't believe the claim that gods are real.

Of course we all use words and language differently but this is the meaning of the words.

Yes. And if you read your own words, you'll see that (a)theism pertains to belief while (a)gnosticism pertains to knowledge.

So they aren't mutually exclusive positions. They are instead different answers to different questions.
One is an answer to "do you believe gods are real?"
And the other is an answer to "do you know gods are real?".
These are different questions.

Barefoot is most assuredly a means of traveling on foot.

But it's not a type of shoe.

Boots, slippers, sneakers... those are types of shoes.
Barefoot is not a type of shoe.

Christianity, Islam, Hinduism... those are beliefs.
Atheism is not a belief.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
This is all semantics.

We have words that mean things. "Theist" means someone who believes in God. "Agnostic" means an individual who doesn't know if God exists or not. "Atheist" means someone believes there is no God.

Of course we all use words and language differently but this is the meaning of the words.

Barefoot is most assuredly a means of traveling on foot.

Inductive logic often turns around and bites you. This is because word meanings are naturally ephemeral and semantical arguments are easily invented to prove anything or to disprove everything.
Yet " semantics" is very essential, without it ; will there be any science, please? Right?

Regards
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is a must that for God to be with you, you have to be with God. Is that not fair, in your opinion?

Actually, the responsibility lies with the deity to make itself known if it can and wants to. Nevertheless, I spent a decade as a Christian trying to find this deity, and it was nowhere to be found, which is why I left the religion. So, no, putting the responsibility for that on the seeker is unjust. To say that this God actually exists, and that if the seeker didn't find it, the seeker just didn't try hard enough is like blaming a child looking for its parents who know he seeks them, and can see him, but simply never appear.

You do know, do you not? that the story of Adam and Eve can be believed in a lot of different ways. ?

That's true for all of scripture, once you permit the reader the freedom to decide what to take literally and what to view as mythical. What do you say to the person who considers God metaphor? Or the resurrection metaphor? God represents the limit of man's evolution and perfection, as man learns more and becomes closer to omniscient, the limit of his learning, and becomes more powerful and in greater control of his environment, which includes the distant stars. Resurrection symbolizes the rebirth (renaissance) of reason and enlightenment in humanity, and eventually, power over death itself (immortality). Why not? Who's to say it's less correct than any other interpretation once we cut the anchor of literal interpretation and allow the language to mean what we choose?

Christians won't agree, but the beneficent and perfectly moral God of the Christian Bible, who wants man to know, trust, and believe Him, is already ruled by the evidence supporting evolution. This is not to say that evolution cannot yet be falsified. As unlikely as that would be, it's still logically possible. So what do we do if that falsifying finding is found? We reinterpret that mountain of evidence that was previously thought to support naturalistic evolution.

As best I can tell, that rules in a deceptive intelligent designer, one that planted the strata of the crust with fossils in just such a way as to fool man, by putting the forms that look most like extant species closer to the top and with a mix of radionuclides to make them appear more modern, and the opposite fossils which appear more different and older more deeply, not to mention loading genomes with ERVs and other biological markers supporting the ruse of naturalistic evolution. That not only is not the Christian deity, it need not be a deity at all, just an advanced and powerful alien civilization capable of orchestrating this deception. So, given that, I am more justified in my interpretation of God in the Bible representing something other than the literal deity described, which can be ruled out according to the above argument. If you can find a fallacy in this argument, please indicate what and where.

So how do you prove abstractions like "evolution" or "gravity"?

Abstractions abstracted from experience are categories that unify those concrete observations. Evolution refers to the sum of the observed processes grouped together, which are not abstractions, but concrete occurrences. There are also similar ideas not actually abstracted from anything but imagination, and which have no concrete referent, like vampires. The word gravity refers to the collection of observable effects related to matter attracting other matter according to their masses, whether that be an apple falling or a planet orbiting a star.

We see a question like yours when people are trying to equate God with abstractions like love. They tell us that love can't be held or weighed, just like God. But we can point to the physical and social interactions from which we abstract the concept of love, the many sacrifices made for the benefit of the other. But we can't do that for God, an idea not abstracted from experience like love, gravity, and evolution, but imagined.

Spirituality can often violate rationality

Spirituality is unrelated to rationality. The spiritual experience is nonrational, that is, not the result of applying reason to experience. Most conscious phenomena fit into that category. When we hunger, that is not the result of reasoning, hence nonrational by definition. Preferences such as food or sexual are nonrational. We simply experience a preference, not conclude one. The experience of beauty is nonrational. Actually, just about every phenomenon of consciousness other than reasoning itself is nonrational, including sights and smells, and hopes and fears.

Reason has a specific adaptive value: interpreting the phenomena of experience in order to better anticipate outcomes and more successfully navigate life. Evolution gifted us with this because organisms that accumulate more data about their surroundings and reason better based on it are more successful leaving viable offspring, which is why reason was selected by nature. But that is its sole application - understanding and anticipating our reality. It is only in this arena that I consider nonrational a problem. I choose to reserve the word irrational for failed reasoning, failure to understand the clues around one due to flawed reasoning or no reasoning.

This is another area the apologist likes to broach in support of his beliefs not sufficiently supported by evidence. He points out the value of nonrational thought such as the spiritual experience of a sunset or the thrill of rapturous music. If those things are nonrational and still good and desirable, why not a God belief as well? The difference is that the first two are not beliefs at all. They are not thoughts that can be communicated by words. They can't be right or wrong. Only ideas that can be demonstrated to be correct can be called right. Once we're in the business of evaluating our world to understand and anticipate it, only then can right and wrong, true or false, be applied.

Incidentally, my definition of faith is synonymous with a violation of this process of reasoning and inducing generalizations from experience that can accurately predict future outcomes, that is, it is synonymous with what I have called irrational above, to distinguish it from the nonrational experiences that we covet or try to avoid, and which reason helps us manage. Faith generates ideas that don't work. It is by reason that we decide that a vaccine is safer than the virus, and by faith (irrational thought) that we come to believe the opposite (unjustified belief).
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Actually, the responsibility lies with the deity to make itself known if it can and wants to. Nevertheless, I spent a decade as a Christian trying to find this deity, and it was nowhere to be found, which is why I left the religion. So, no, putting the responsibility for that on the seeker is unjust. To say that this God actually exists, and that if the seeker didn't find it, the seeker just didn't try hard enough is like blaming a child looking for its parents who know he seeks them, and can see him, but simply never appear.



That's true for all of scripture, once you permit the reader the freedom to decide what to take literally and what to view as mythical. What do you say to the person who considers God metaphor? Or the resurrection metaphor? God represents the limit of man's evolution and perfection, as man learns more and becomes closer to omniscient, the limit of his learning, and becomes more powerful and in greater control of his environment, which includes the distant stars. Resurrection symbolizes the rebirth (renaissance) of reason and enlightenment in humanity, and eventually, power over death itself (immortality). Why not? Who's to say it's less correct than any other interpretation once we cut the anchor of literal interpretation and allow the language to mean what we choose?

Christians won't agree, but the beneficent and perfectly moral God of the Christian Bible, who wants man to know, trust, and believe Him, is already ruled by the evidence supporting evolution. This is not to say that evolution cannot yet be falsified. As unlikely as that would be, it's still logically possible. So what do we do if that falsifying finding is found? We reinterpret that mountain of evidence that was previously thought to support naturalistic evolution.

As best I can tell, that rules in a deceptive intelligent designer, one that planted the strata of the crust with fossils in just such a way as to fool man, by putting the forms that look most like extant species closer to the top and with a mix of radionuclides to make them appear more modern, and the opposite fossils which appear more different and older more deeply, not to mention loading genomes with ERVs and other biological markers supporting the ruse of naturalistic evolution. That not only is not the Christian deity, it need not be a deity at all, just an advanced and powerful alien civilization capable of orchestrating this deception. So, given that, I am more justified in my interpretation of God in the Bible representing something other than the literal deity described, which can be ruled out according to the above argument. If you can find a fallacy in this argument, please indicate what and where.



Abstractions abstracted from experience are categories that unify those concrete observations. Evolution refers to the sum of the observed processes grouped together, which are not abstractions, but concrete occurrences. There are also similar ideas not actually abstracted from anything but imagination, and which have no concrete referent, like vampires. The word gravity refers to the collection of observable effects related to matter attracting other matter according to their masses, whether that be an apple falling or a planet orbiting a star.

We see a question like yours when people are trying to equate God with abstractions like love. They tell us that love can't be held or weighed, just like God. But we can point to the physical and social interactions from which we abstract the concept of love, the many sacrifices made for the benefit of the other. But we can't do that for God, an idea not abstracted from experience like love, gravity, and evolution, but imagined.



Spirituality is unrelated to rationality. The spiritual experience is nonrational, that is, not the result of applying reason to experience. Most conscious phenomena fit into that category. When we hunger, that is not the result of reasoning, hence nonrational by definition. Preferences such as food or sexual are nonrational. We simply experience a preference, not conclude one. The experience of beauty is nonrational. Actually, just about every phenomenon of consciousness other than reasoning itself is nonrational, including sights and smells, and hopes and fears.

Reason has a specific adaptive value: interpreting the phenomena of experience in order to better anticipate outcomes and more successfully navigate life. Evolution gifted us with this because organisms that accumulate more data about their surroundings and reason better based on it are more successful leaving viable offspring, which is why reason was selected by nature. But that is its sole application - understanding and anticipating our reality. It is only in this arena that I consider nonrational a problem. I choose to reserve the word irrational for failed reasoning, failure to understand the clues around one due to flawed reasoning or no reasoning.

This is another area the apologist likes to broach in support of his beliefs not sufficiently supported by evidence. He points out the value of nonrational thought such as the spiritual experience of a sunset or the thrill of rapturous music. If those things are nonrational and still good and desirable, why not a God belief as well? The difference is that the first two are not beliefs at all. They are not thoughts that can be communicated by words. They can't be right or wrong. Only ideas that can be demonstrated to be correct can be called right. Once we're in the business of evaluating our world to understand and anticipate it, only then can right and wrong, true or false, be applied.

Incidentally, my definition of faith is synonymous with a violation of this process of reasoning and inducing generalizations from experience that can accurately predict future outcomes, that is, it is synonymous with what I have called irrational above, to distinguish it from the nonrational experiences that we covet or try to avoid, and which reason helps us manage. Faith generates ideas that don't work. It is by reason that we decide that a vaccine is safer than the virus, and by faith (irrational thought) that we come to believe the opposite (unjustified belief).
"the responsibility lies with the deity to make itself known if it can and wants to."

And that is why G-d sends his Messengers and prophets with true religions wherein is the message as to how to seek Him and the path to reach Him, please. Right?

Regards
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Summary: Why do you believe in God? What do you find to be the most compelling evidence that God exists?

That question alone shows that you are brainwashed by modern education. Humans don't rely on evidence to get to a truth simply because that's not possible. Today you get truths from our media such as CNN or Fox News, they acquire info subsequently from eyewitnesses. That's how reality works. Before the invention of TV, then people read news from newspapers which is, some human writings from a piece of paper. People in London knew what happened in New York city this way. Do people look for evidence behind each piece of news before they believe so, reality doesn't operate that way. Another example, covid-19 death tolls are listed for over a year on a daily basis, do you have the evidence that those death tolls are accurate?

History is basically made up of human testimonies and mostly cannot be evidenced. So we believe history happened said not by evidence by means of trusting what historians said. It is said in Chinese history books that Confucius (who lived 3000 years ago) had 3000 apprentices. You either believe so or not, it's out of human capability to look into whether Confucius actually had 3000 apprentices or perhaps 3001 or 2999.

God is from the testimonies of eyewitnesses who encountered God historically in Israel. Either you believe so as how people believe that Confucius has 3000 apprentices, or you don't!
 
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