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Frustrated athiest asks why do you believe in God?

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Actually, the responsibility lies with the deity to make itself known if it can and wants to. Nevertheless, I spent a decade as a Christian trying to find this deity, and it was nowhere to be found, which is why I left the religion. So, no, putting the responsibility for that on the seeker is unjust. To say that this God actually exists, and that if the seeker didn't find it, the seeker just didn't try hard enough is like blaming a child looking for its parents who know he seeks them, and can see him, but simply never appear.



That's true for all of scripture, once you permit the reader the freedom to decide what to take literally and what to view as mythical. What do you say to the person who considers God metaphor? Or the resurrection metaphor? God represents the limit of man's evolution and perfection, as man learns more and becomes closer to omniscient, the limit of his learning, and becomes more powerful and in greater control of his environment, which includes the distant stars. Resurrection symbolizes the rebirth (renaissance) of reason and enlightenment in humanity, and eventually, power over death itself (immortality). Why not? Who's to say it's less correct than any other interpretation once we cut the anchor of literal interpretation and allow the language to mean what we choose?

Christians won't agree, but the beneficent and perfectly moral God of the Christian Bible, who wants man to know, trust, and believe Him, is already ruled by the evidence supporting evolution. This is not to say that evolution cannot yet be falsified. As unlikely as that would be, it's still logically possible. So what do we do if that falsifying finding is found? We reinterpret that mountain of evidence that was previously thought to support naturalistic evolution.

As best I can tell, that rules in a deceptive intelligent designer, one that planted the strata of the crust with fossils in just such a way as to fool man, by putting the forms that look most like extant species closer to the top and with a mix of radionuclides to make them appear more modern, and the opposite fossils which appear more different and older more deeply, not to mention loading genomes with ERVs and other biological markers supporting the ruse of naturalistic evolution. That not only is not the Christian deity, it need not be a deity at all, just an advanced and powerful alien civilization capable of orchestrating this deception. So, given that, I am more justified in my interpretation of God in the Bible representing something other than the literal deity described, which can be ruled out according to the above argument. If you can find a fallacy in this argument, please indicate what and where.



Abstractions abstracted from experience are categories that unify those concrete observations. Evolution refers to the sum of the observed processes grouped together, which are not abstractions, but concrete occurrences. There are also similar ideas not actually abstracted from anything but imagination, and which have no concrete referent, like vampires. The word gravity refers to the collection of observable effects related to matter attracting other matter according to their masses, whether that be an apple falling or a planet orbiting a star.

We see a question like yours when people are trying to equate God with abstractions like love. They tell us that love can't be held or weighed, just like God. But we can point to the physical and social interactions from which we abstract the concept of love, the many sacrifices made for the benefit of the other. But we can't do that for God, an idea not abstracted from experience like love, gravity, and evolution, but imagined.



Spirituality is unrelated to rationality. The spiritual experience is nonrational, that is, not the result of applying reason to experience. Most conscious phenomena fit into that category. When we hunger, that is not the result of reasoning, hence nonrational by definition. Preferences such as food or sexual are nonrational. We simply experience a preference, not conclude one. The experience of beauty is nonrational. Actually, just about every phenomenon of consciousness other than reasoning itself is nonrational, including sights and smells, and hopes and fears.

Reason has a specific adaptive value: interpreting the phenomena of experience in order to better anticipate outcomes and more successfully navigate life. Evolution gifted us with this because organisms that accumulate more data about their surroundings and reason better based on it are more successful leaving viable offspring, which is why reason was selected by nature. But that is its sole application - understanding and anticipating our reality. It is only in this arena that I consider nonrational a problem. I choose to reserve the word irrational for failed reasoning, failure to understand the clues around one due to flawed reasoning or no reasoning.

This is another area the apologist likes to broach in support of his beliefs not sufficiently supported by evidence. He points out the value of nonrational thought such as the spiritual experience of a sunset or the thrill of rapturous music. If those things are nonrational and still good and desirable, why not a God belief as well? The difference is that the first two are not beliefs at all. They are not thoughts that can be communicated by words. They can't be right or wrong. Only ideas that can be demonstrated to be correct can be called right. Once we're in the business of evaluating our world to understand and anticipate it, only then can right and wrong, true or false, be applied.

Incidentally, my definition of faith is synonymous with a violation of this process of reasoning and inducing generalizations from experience that can accurately predict future outcomes, that is, it is synonymous with what I have called irrational above, to distinguish it from the nonrational experiences that we covet or try to avoid, and which reason helps us manage. Faith generates ideas that don't work. It is by reason that we decide that a vaccine is safer than the virus, and by faith (irrational thought) that we come to believe the opposite (unjustified belief).
" I spent a decade as a Christian trying to find this deity, and it was nowhere to be found, which is why I left the religion."

I am very sad to note that phenomenon, but one mistook to follow Pauline-Christianity as Paul , I understand, assumed an Apostle with a fake vision while he had nothing to do with Jesus the Messenger/Prophet of G-d and or his teachings, I see. Right?
If one would have followed Jesus, one would have treaded on the path to G-d, I must say. Right?
It is for this that I say that Pauline-Christianity is the production factory of (Western) Atheism and its denominations, please. What will one say on this, please.

Regards

Regards
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No need to be frustrated Jesus was neither son of a father, nor the father of any son, Jesus was son of Mary only, I understand. Right?

Regards
I don't know! I don't even know if any of it really happened.
The story is about goodness. Isn't it?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
LOL... smilies are "hostile"... :rolleyes: - Are you needing a safe place? :D

Thanks for a well thought out response. ;)

:p (an extra emoji for your enjoyment :D ) (Unless you are getting hostile because I use them :) )

Thanks for the bit of humor - I needed a smile to start my day. ;):confused::cool::p:D:eek::rolleyes:o_O;)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Is "not walking" a type of moving?
Is "not collecting stamps" a hobby?
Is "barefoot" a type of shoe?
Is "off" a TV channel?

Not walking is the outcome of a belief that you don't want to walk
Not collecting stamps is a belief that you don't want that type of hobby
Walking barefoot :D is actually skin shoe. :D
Having the TV (on the old TV's) was actually along with the channels :D

No. It's rather like saying that if there is no action, there is no reaction.

If you do not believe you are sick, you will not be going to the doctor.
If you do not believe a fist is swinging towards your nose, you will not be dodging.

Nice play on words when you want it to say what you want it to say.

Your belief on not going to the doctor:
  1. is a result of the belief that you are not sick
  2. Is a ridiculous decision because you could have a cancer that a checkup would have discovered
If you do not believe a fist is swing toward your nose:
  1. You have made up a absurd example because you don't know what you are talking about
  2. You are about to be sucker punched
  3. You belief, if it is coming, will cause you to be on the floor (action/reaction)




The point keeps flying so far above your head, you're not even seeing it.

OR

as I mentioned before

You are so philosophically up there with so many words that no one understands what you are saying. Or, in other words, you are up so high your position is of no earthly good. :D
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Dear Lord,

If it be Thy will, may there be an RF thread about religion or politics that does not turn into a thread about both degenerating into primate dung tossing.

Amen.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Science is a methodology. Any subversion of this methodology shows ignorance, contempt, or both. Any belief in science, its methodology, or its theory is contempt.
What does "belief in science" mean to you?

Since this is what you are saying about me and my attitude you should get it right. Educated people don't believe in science. Science is either done properly or it isn't. Science either produces valid results or it doesn't. We accept how the process works. There is a method that science uses to test hypotheses and report findings. You claim to have taken an experimental psychology class so you should have some working knowledge about this. Yet you write posts that mischaracterize how science works.

The first thing you're supposed to learn in science is to make good observation and keep an open mind.

Some seem to think that "science" is the use of semantics and theory to beat up non-believers. Rather than responding to arguments they cite interpretations, paradigms, and beliefs.
Who are these people? It tends to be non-believers who are better educated in science and even the Bible.

If you can't explain something to a child then you don't understand it yourself.
So if a child doesn't understand calculus you yourself don't understand it? It has nothing to do with the level of brain development between an adult and a child?

Rather than discussion they continually cite proof for their positions and tell you that nothing can be proved other than what they already believe.
Are you referring to believers who claim special religious experiences that atheists "just don't get"? If not, then who? Be specific and give examples.

It's all semantics and circular arguments none of which have anything whatsoever to do with actual science.
Yeah, this describes religious actors in debate. For example, the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. Or God exists because he wrote the Bible. Or I know God exists because I have experiences.

Everything in science is supposed to have experiment as its bedrock and then each individual is supposed to build models from this with as little belief as humanly possible. But many peoples' models are composed chiefly of belief.
Give examples of people doing this.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Yes, science is a useful tool/methodology to know the physical and material aspects of the things, but it utterly fails (due to its defined limits) in ethical, moral and spiritual aspects of life, please. Right?
It is not good for everything, please. Right?

In a sense it's not really good for anything.

Let me explain. While science and reason are the only tools we have to understand reality the simple fact is they are both very puny tools. Understanding reality using science is akin to removing all the sand from all the beeches using nothing but a child's toy shovel and bucket. For many practical purposes it is no more useful than flipping a coin. But just as "consciousness" is the gift from "God/ nature" to help us survive and procreate, "science" has become the only tool that is effective at creating Knowledge > Understanding > Creation (the holy trinity). But it is even weaker for providing anything about ethics etc.

I believe religion is the creation (somewhat confused) of ancient science which employed a different metaphysics that was based on the logic of digital consciousness. This tool (ancient science) was much more powerful for some tasks like coming to understand consciousness. From this morality is derived.

Scientists are never supposed to reach a conclusion. They are always supposed to be open to completely rewriting everything they know as Kuhn has described. But almost all of them become so entrenched in their beliefs and models that science can change only one funeral at a time.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
This is all semantics.

We have words that mean things. "Theist" means someone who believes in God. "Agnostic" means an individual who doesn't know if God exists or not. "Atheist" means someone believes there is no God.
False. But 2 out of 3 aint bad.

Atheists are non-theists. Get the language and semantics right if you are going to make a point about semantics. You are being either careless or deliberately deceptive and misleading.

Of course we all use words and language differently but this is the meaning of the words.

Barefoot is most assuredly a means of traveling on foot.
But what kind of shoe is barefoot? Stay on point and answer this.

Inductive logic often turns around and bites you.
Only when you are being careless or deceptive.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Yet " semantics" is very essential, without it ; will there be any science, please? Right?

When I use the word "semantics" I always mean the sense of "word games" unless another usage is clearly intended. Most argument at least one "side" is using mostly just word games (semantical arguments) (semantics).

There are other definitions that I rarely use.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
" Science is a methodology."

Yes, science is a useful tool/methodology to know the physical and material aspects of the things, but it utterly fails (due to its defined limits) in ethical, moral and spiritual aspects of life, please. Right?
It is not good for everything, please. Right?
Following a recipe in a cookbook has nothing to do with ethics or morality. Knowing how to cut hair has nothing to do with ethics or morality. Learning car repair has nothing to do with ethics or morality. Learning about religion might claim to do with ethics, morality, and spiritual aspects of life, but it might not offer any of it.

Good people tend to be good theists. Bad people tend to be bad theists. Religion won't make bad people good.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
When I use the word "semantics" I always mean the sense of "word games" unless another usage is clearly intended. Most argument at least one "side" is using mostly just word games (semantical arguments) (semantics).

There are other definitions that I rarely use.
Thanks for your confession.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Abstractions abstracted from experience are categories that unify those concrete observations.

I'm not sure what this means but I think it could be used to define "belief"

The word gravity refers to the collection of observable effects related to matter attracting other matter according to their masses, whether that be an apple falling or a planet orbiting a star.

Everyone knows what a "dog" is or "concrete" but gravity has very very little meaning to the laymen other than its effects. Not even cosmologists can really tell you how or why it works or how it came into existence.

We see a question like yours when people are trying to equate God with abstractions like love.

I don't believe "love" is truly an abstraction in the sense I mean "abstract". "Abstraction" are things we use to communicate complex ideas but "love" is a product of the amygdala that leads to numerous unique behaviors. It's as real as a heart attack (see what I did there).

But we can't do that for God, an idea not abstracted from experience like love, gravity, and evolution, but imagined.

Most of us know what love is and would probably recognize a heart attack. Most of us know or have known "love". Some of us can relate to "God". But "evolution" is a theory and nobody really knows what "gravity" is.


.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Not walking is the outcome of a belief that you don't want to walk
Awkward wording as no one thinks like this. So you stand in the middle of a parking lot because you believe that you don't want to walk? No, you decided to not walk. If you are blocking cars they will honk and at some point you will decide to start walking again. Why you stopped walking will have some other motive, like you believe you left your wallet in your car. That is not the same as "belief that you don't want to walk".

Note that belief means an uncertain state of mind. We believe things because we are not certain about them. "I believe I left my wallet in the car" means you are not certain where your wallet is. You check your pockets, and it's not on you. You decide to walk back to your car and check, and you can't find it. You then believe you left it at home. You'd decide to drive home and look for it. You believe you left in by your front door. You get home and you are wrong, it's not by the door. You keep looking, can't find it. So your beliefs so far have not been shown to be in error. You search your hose and can't find it. You decide to check your car again and find it fallen between the seat and console. Now you are certain where it is, you know it was in the car and belief is no longer necessary.

So going back, if you are standing in a parking lot and believe you don't want to walk, then you are uncertain whether you want to walk or not? How often does this happen on a daily basis? I never happens for me, nor any other person who has places to be.

Not collecting stamps is a belief that you don't want that type of hobby
So you are not certain if you don't want to collect stamps? Maybe you really do want to collect stamps but just not sure?

I have no such uncertainty. I have no interest in that hobby.

Walking barefoot :D is actually skin shoe. :D
Now you are getting desperate to avoid acknowledging a valid point.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
But what kind of shoe is barefoot? Stay on point and answer this.

"Corn shoe". "Skin shoe". "Birthday shoes". "Slipper fillers". "Double amputee devices". "Horse shoe". "Shoe footed". "Foot shoed".

Perhaps the problem is the question.

Anybody can make a semantical argument and that's what's going on when "agnostic" and "atheist" have the same meaning.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you can't explain something to a child then you don't understand it yourself.

Teaching is a cooperative process. It occurs when a presented, comprehensible concept is understood and accepted by an adequately prepared mind. Could you prove the Pythagorean theorem to a child who knows no algebra or geometry? This is why there is no burden of proof when dealing with a person unable to evaluate a sound argument. It is not due to an inability of the teacher as you imply, but due to lack of preparedness in the would-be student. We see this all of the time when discussing evolution with creationists. They don't have the background to understand or rebut scientific claims. They can't evaluate an argument for soundness, so one can't teach such unprepared minds using them.

Everything in science is supposed to have experiment as its bedrock and then each individual is supposed to build models from this with as little belief as humanly possible. But many peoples' models are composed chiefly of belief.

Science is a form of empiricism, which means its laws and theories are derived from observation, induction of a general rule unifying those observations, and confirmation that the rule has predictive power.

When an idea is supported only by belief, it is faith, that is, unsupported belief.

"Atheist" means someone believes there is no God.

Not to me or most other self-described atheists. I am a person who has no position on gods other than that I have no reason to believe that they exist or don't, since the evidence I have for both positions is inconclusive, and thus hold no god belief. If your definition of atheist doesn't include a person with that position, it's pretty useless to those who do hold it.

Barefoot is most assuredly a means of traveling on foot.

You've moved the goalpost. He didn't claim that barefoot wasn't a means to travel. He claimed that is wasn't a type of shoe.

Inductive logic often turns around and bites you. This is because word meanings are naturally ephemeral and semantical arguments are easily invented to prove anything or to disprove everything.

If you've learned to think critically, inductive logic doesn't bite you, and you cannot be convinced of anything using sophistry. One can look at an argument and decide if it supports its conclusion. If it contains fallacies or semantic sleights of hand, one can recognize them and reject the argument's conclusions.

This is the power of learning to reason properly. It's immense. It's what protects one from being indoctrinated and accumulating wrong beliefs.

I don't believe "love" is truly an abstraction in the sense I mean "abstract". "Abstraction" are things we use to communicate complex ideas but "love" is a product of the amygdala that leads to numerous unique behaviors.

An abstraction is an idea derived from concrete experience. Consider its etymology: "Middle English: from Latin abstractus, literally ‘drawn away’, past participle of abstrahere, from ab- ‘from’ + trahere ‘draw off’." After observing multiple examples of pairs of objects, we abstract the concept of two. Two is the abstraction. It is the category that all pairs belong to, the abstract genus of concrete species. The abstraction is grounded in the reality of the concrete objects but is itself not concrete.

One definition of abstract is "existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence. "abstract concepts such as love or beauty" It is only the abstraction that has no physical or concrete existence. That from which it was abstracted does. If there is no concrete reality to correspond with an idea, it is not an abstraction.

For this reason, I consider ideas like evolution, gravity, and love to be fundamentally different from ideas like God. The former are abstracted from concrete objects and actions, the latter not abstracted from anything and referring to nothing demonstrable.

"the responsibility lies with the deity to make itself known if it can and wants to."

And that is why G-d sends his Messengers and prophets with true religions wherein is the message as to how to seek Him and the path to reach Him, please. Right?

The messages of these messengers are not convincing to a critical thinker. As I said, once one learns such skills, his criteria for belief become purely empirical. He needs compelling evidence before believing. No messenger has offered compelling evidence of a deity by those standards.

" I spent a decade as a Christian trying to find this deity, and it was nowhere to be found, which is why I left the religion."

I am very sad to note that phenomenon, but one mistook to follow Pauline-Christianity as Paul , I understand, assumed an Apostle with a fake vision while he had nothing to do with Jesus the Messenger/Prophet of G-d and or his teachings, I see. Right?
If one would have followed Jesus, one would have treaded on the path to G-d, I must say. Right?
It is for this that I say that Pauline-Christianity is the production factory of (Western) Atheism and its denominations, please. What will one say on this, please.

I'm not aware of denominations of atheism.

Regarding my having chosen the wrong religion or having followed it improperly and thereby failing to find a God that wants to be found, that would be just another example of the lack of faith in a god by a sincere seeker as being due to a deficiency in the seeker. He just didn't try hard enough, or he didn't do it right. I reject that claim. What we have here is hide-and-seek, with the hidden god remaining hidden despite a good faith effort on the part of the seeker to find it. If there is a deity that wants seekers to find it, it needs to meet that seeker at least halfway.

And frankly, I wouldn't be interested in testing each denomination of each religion to see if a god jumps out when I hit the right one the right way. Why would anyone seek such a god?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Awkward wording as no one thinks like this. So you stand in the middle of a parking lot because you believe that you don't want to walk? No, you decided to not walk. If you are blocking cars they will honk and at some point you will decide to start walking again. Why you stopped walking will have some other motive, like you believe you left your wallet in your car. That is not the same as "belief that you don't want to walk".

Note that belief means an uncertain state of mind. We believe things because we are not certain about them. "I believe I left my wallet in the car" means you are not certain where your wallet is. You check your pockets, and it's not on you. You decide to walk back to your car and check, and you can't find it. You then believe you left it at home. You'd decide to drive home and look for it. You believe you left in by your front door. You get home and you are wrong, it's not by the door. You keep looking, can't find it. So your beliefs so far have not been shown to be in error. You search your hose and can't find it. You decide to check your car again and find it fallen between the seat and console. Now you are certain where it is, you know it was in the car and belief is no longer necessary.

So going back, if you are standing in a parking lot and believe you don't want to walk, then you are uncertain whether you want to walk or not? How often does this happen on a daily basis? I never happens for me, nor any other person who has places to be.


So you are not certain if you don't want to collect stamps? Maybe you really do want to collect stamps but just not sure?

I have no such uncertainty. I have no interest in that hobby.


Now you are getting desperate to avoid acknowledging a valid point.
No... what I see is an effort of people trying to construct a construct that is so ridiculous and then destroy what they constructed ;)

As subduction said,

If you don't believe there is a God... then say so.
If you don't believe at this time because you don't have enough evidence - say you are an agnostic.
if you are against God, and what He stands for, then "say you are anti-God" (my addition)

Don't mince words and don't play with false analogies.
 
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cladking

Well-Known Member
Could you prove the Pythagorean theorem to a child who knows no algebra or geometry?

Easily. Curiously I did just that recently with an 8 year old. This instance was less successful than usual due to circumstances beyond my control. You can tell if a kid "gets it" by asking a simple question afterward. I believe teaching kids this sort of thing helps them learn simpler concepts like all the angles in a tringle equal 180 degrees because no matter where you start you always end up back at the same spot.

Their comprehension will simply be incomplete or I should say "less complete" than a mathematician.

Science is a form of empiricism, which means its laws and theories are derived from observation, induction of a general rule unifying those observations, and confirmation that the rule has predictive power.

No!!! Induction is language. Language is not logical. One can invent hypothesis with induction or even use it to help in experiment design but it is never science.

since the evidence I have for both positions is inconclusive, and thus hold no god belief.

I have no conclusions on any subject including the existence or non-existence of "God". Indeed I believe most of His characteristics would be unknowable or undefinable to man.

Unlike you I've reached no conclusions on change in species or the proper way to interpret any experiment.

He didn't claim that barefoot wasn't a means to travel. He claimed that is wasn't a type of shoe.

So? Are are stilts "shoes" if you use them barefoot? If your feet are caked in mud from walking barefoot are you still barefoot? At exactly what point did the mud turn into shoes? If you're barefoot in a walking machine is it your shoes? You are just playing word games to avoid relevant responses to numerous very high quality answers to the question. Believers are just dancing around every point and then accusing theists and other non-atheists of doing so.

If it contains fallacies or semantic sleights of hand, one can recognize them and reject the argument's conclusions.

And how does one do this if the relevant points don't appear at all in the induction?

Your statement is just another example of your belief you have all the answers.

It's what protects one from being indoctrinated and accumulating wrong beliefs.

Again, I repeat, all beliefs are wrong beliefs and scientists don't reach conclusions so should have no beliefs (per se).

An abstraction is an idea derived from concrete experience.

I already defined it so your definition is irrelevant. When YOU use the word then I'll consider your definition. In the meantime I would request you at least TRY to parse my words as they were intended.
 

Yazata

Active Member
Yet " semantics" is very essential, without it ; will there be any science, please? Right?

Regards

I agree 120%

Semantics refers to what our symbolic systems (whether natural language or formal logic) mean, what their symbols refer to. And the whole idea of truth depends on that.

Imagine a simple propositional logic conditional (If A, then B). It might be true or false, and that is going to depend on how we interpret the propositions 'A' and 'B'.

In the same way, the truth or falsity of our various statements about 'theism', 'God', 'atheism', 'agnosticism' or whatever it is, depend fundamentally and crucially on what we take those words to mean, on what we are talking about and referring to when we use them.

There's no escaping the importance of semantics, whether in logic, science or in real life.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Science is a methodology. Any subversion of this methodology shows ignorance, contempt, or both. Any belief in science, its methodology, or its theory is contempt.

The first thing you're supposed to learn in science is to make good observation and keep an open mind.

Some seem to think that "science" is the use of semantics and theory to beat up non-believers. Rather than responding to arguments they cite interpretations, paradigms, and beliefs.

If you can't explain something to a child then you don't understand it yourself.

Rather than discussion they continually cite proof for their positions and tell you that nothing can be proved other than what they already believe.

It's all semantics and circular arguments none of which have anything whatsoever to do with actual science.

Everything in science is supposed to have experiment as its bedrock and then each individual is supposed to build models from this with as little belief as humanly possible. But many peoples' models are composed chiefly of belief.

How has he ever used science to "beat up" non-believers? Science can show certain ideas to be wrong. What is wrong with correcting people when they say that the Earth is flat?
 
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