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Frustrated athiest asks why do you believe in God?

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Really? You should not be throwing stones since your particular version of Christianity appears to be making the same sort of errors that the Catholics made in the time of Galileo.
Why has Pentecostalism grown so dramatically in Latin America?

"Tens of millions of Latin Americans have left the Roman Catholic Church in recent decades and embraced Pentecostal Christianity, according to a new Pew Research Center survey on religion in 18 Latin American countries and Puerto Rico."
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member

F1fan

Veteran Member
Not what I said. There's a lot of nominal catholics that kind of inherited it because it's been the traditional religion of their family... that's not faith unless you make it your own. Ritual vs real experience, and real experiences of supernatural power are winning.
So when did the "real Gospel" begin if the Catholics didn't get it right? let's note the Catholic Church was the first major version of Christianity. The many diverse versions of Protestantism came after Martin Luther.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I assume that you are talking about theological conservatism there. And theological conservatism means adherence to and being guided by tradition. So to the extent that modernist orthodoxies deviate from that tradition, theological conservatives are going to find themselves out of step with those later beliefs.
And what makes a tradition correct? It's often intertwined with the culture and politics of the society. Look at the tradition of slavery in the Confederate South, and how slavery was morally justified by the Bible. Look at the tradition of the Catholic Church's belief that the Aristotle model of the universe was correct, and they had to silence Galileo who challenged it. Look at the tradition of creationism in conservative American sects as they opposed the teaching of evolution, see the Snopes trial. See the Dover, PA trial which resolved a religious view of intelligent design being introduced in schools.

If there is a tradition of the Eucharist, well I guess protestants can reject it. And they did. So we se a great evolution of faith under the umbrella of Christianity as sects aim to serve whatever audience is available. There are liberals to moderates to conservatives to extremists.

Today in the USA evangelical Christianity is notably conservative and largely in line with conservative politics. Reagan and Falwell made that pact with the devil. Which one is the devil?

Instead we find theologically "liberal" Christians battling to reinterpret and reinvent the tradition in terms of whatever beliefs are popular in their own time and place.
I suggest it is all of Christianity given the estimated 44,000 sects under that umbrella of salvation. I know Methodists and Episcopals have had internal disputes and division over their liberal/tolerant side versus their conservative side, mostly over women as preachers and gays being accepted. It's tough for the more conservative folks because they are having to decide to follow Jesus or their tradition.

The danger in that, as the theological conservatives see it, is that tradition becomes 'Whatever we want it to be'. The tradition is drained of all of its historical (and arguably revealed) content. It ceases being a guide to contemporary life and instead becomes just another expression of contemporary ideas.

Little remains except the tradition's name, like the Cheshire Cat's grin in Alice.
This tends to happen when the "truth" is not very tolerant and moral. The Baptists of the Confederate South lost the war and slaves, but they resisted giving up that tradition into the 21st century. The racism that remains there has seeped into the Republican party over time. The tradition has to adapt to modernity and evolved moral outlooks. The more rigid thinking will be less likely to feel comfortable adapting to change. The opposition to CRT and book banning show us conservatives are resisting this moral evolution.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
So when did the "real Gospel" begin if the Catholics didn't get it right? let's note the Catholic Church was the first major version of Christianity. The many diverse versions of Protestantism came after Martin Luther.
It began with the Early church.. from the apostles teaching... like most things it got corrupted eventually by politics and non biblical practices. The reformers tried to bring it back to the common man, by making scripture accessible and getting rid of some of the non biblical practices like selling indulgences. Even Luther was still steeped in some Catholic falsehoods, but he understood it wasn't about counting beads or paying for somebody else's salvation.... Stuff the early church never did. There's plenty of true believers in the Catholic Church I'm sure , but it has a tendency to push people into works religion instead of to the cross.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Did you read that article? One of the main reasons people switched is due to one of the major lies of Pentecostal churches, that being faith healing.



James 5:14-15 ESV
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It's biblical to pray over the sick.
What you think about it is irrelevant.
When it comes to individuals who claim to be able to heal that is a different question.
And not all Pentecostal churches emphasize faith healings or prosperity.
Wrong again. It is a claim of your church. That puts the burden of proof upon them.
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
I'm more interested in why people believe in the Abrahamic God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Thanks. That makes it easier to explain :)
I will only regard to the OT god, as there is without a doubt a complete agreement, that the Q, NT, and OT, all speak of the same one.
I will also (try to ) describe things that everyone (all religions based on the Abrahamic god) agrees upn.

I would say, that the closest thing to describe the idea of what it is will be to imagine our entire universe.. regardless of the question of its origin, and encapsulate it all into a category of physically Unknown.
Please do not confuse this with "God of the gaps", rather the idea of summing the entire physical existence into one "node".
There is an agreement on this idea (when I write "agreement", I mean science and religions), that we are all, one huge physical system. we are not sure (at all) what this system is, but we do know it exists.
The idea of God, adds another "dimension" to the story.
It is the idea that this system is governed by a predetermined, predefined rule system.
Also, this system is manipulated (by an unknown force) in an ongoing process.
Not only that, this system (thus the unknown force) is reacting, to your personal actions and even thoughts.
The OT doesn't offer information about what god is... instead it describes in human language, how it reacts (or manipulates) with the universe (mostly nature) and especially with humankind.

To me, it's easy to believe it is true.
If you wish to go deeper, I will gladly answer any other questions you have.


Randomness? That which has no pattern I guess. Any pattern observed would be perspective bias or coincidental.
Yes.
The keyword here is observed.
The more we observe, the less it becomes random.
We struggle with finding patterns in particles (of the atom) as an example, only because we cannot yet measure them good enough.
But even those particles, have basic patterns we can describe even today.
In order for Randomness to exist, it means there must be something that doesn't comply with anything we will ever be able to, measure (meaning not bound to any specific behavior or physical rule we can ever measure).
So in a way, nothing is really random (from our universe's POV)
Energy are forces like electromagnetic, gravitational, nuclear, others we may not have discovered yet.
Great.
All these forces, as far as we can see so far, emerged from one force.
This force emerged, in an instant, and expanded into our universe.
To me, the idea this force is actually a part of a much bigger force is not far-fetched and even makes complete sense.
I'm not sure how I would describe our existence. Maybe you could ask a more specific question about existence?
Sure.

In your POV, how will you determine if something exists or not?

How will you describe "life"?

How will you describe the idea that "life" became "Us"?

How do you describe a thought (meaning, what it is) ? and a memory?
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
It began with the Early church.. from the apostles teaching... like most things it got corrupted eventually by politics and non biblical practices. The reformers tried to bring it back to the common man, by making scripture accessible and getting rid of some of the non biblical practices like selling indulgences. Even Luther was still steeped in some Catholic falsehoods, but he understood it wasn't about counting beads or paying for somebody else's salvation.... Stuff the early church never did. There's plenty of true believers in the Catholic Church I'm sure , but it has a tendency to push people into works religion instead of to the cross.
Are you opposed to works?

What does it mean "to the cross"?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Are you opposed to works?

What does it mean "to the cross"?
Of course not. Doing good for the right reasons is great. But it doesn't save anyone.
If I explain what going to the cross means I'll get in trouble for proselytizing.
The short version: Grace alone means that God loves, forgives, and saves us not because of who we are or what we do, but because of the work of Christ.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Of course not. Doing good for the right reasons is great. But it doesn't save anyone.
This is a bad policy by God since it expected Christians to be naturally empathetic and always following Jesus. But Christians definitely see works as being optional. They see helping the needy BECAUSE they are in need as optional. Disagree? Then why does the USA have so much poverty? Why do so many Christians advocate for wealth and greed? There's even prosperity Gospel now that actively worships money and advances greed. How many televangelists have raked in millions selling bad faith to the gullible?

If I explain what going to the cross means I'll get in trouble for proselytizing.
The short version: Grace alone means that God loves, forgives, and saves us not because of who we are or what we do, but because of the work of Christ.
Well this is meaningless given there is no real-life benefit to anyone believers or not. We still see children suffer greatly from natural and man-made causes. At best this idea is an illusion and hope of some future better case scenario. Even with that the believer doesn't know for sure. This is just dogma that is accepted because it soothes the anxiety of real life and real responsibility.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
If I explain what going to the cross means I'll get in trouble for proselytizing.
You can still write a detailed explanation IF you just write the idea, and don't imply or claim it is true. If you don't make an assertion of your text being true or applicable to anyone else, then you will avoid trouble. Clarify by starting:

We believe "from the cross" means ......
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Well this is meaningless given there is no real-life benefit to anyone believers or not. We still see children suffer greatly from natural and man-made causes. At best this idea is an illusion and hope of some future better case scenario. Even with that the believer doesn't know for sure. This is just dogma that is accepted because it soothes the anxiety of real life and real responsibility.
No it shows us we have a responsibility to others... that would not be so if we didn't believe in a loving God.
Works will be a reality in the life of a true believer, they may seem small or large but the important thing is the motivation behind them.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
You can still write a detailed explanation IF you just write the idea, and don't imply or claim it is true. If you don't make an assertion of your text being true or applicable to anyone else, then you will avoid trouble. Clarify by starting:

We believe "from the cross" means ......
Going to the cross is simply humbly asking for salvation.
First:
All Have Sinned

Biblical Fact: Everybody has sinned against God – No One isP;erfect, and because of this, we do not deserve to go to heaven

Romans 3:23

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…
How do you receive forgiveness and eternal life from God?
By way of the Gospel:

“Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.” 1 Cor.15:3,4

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—

8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.



Acts 16:31

…31“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved”…

While we were still sinners, Christ died for us


Titus 3

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life..




“Good works” follow and confirm our salvation – “Good works” do not cause us to become right with God, they reveal our right relationship with God.

Lots of people attend church but never follow the steps to salvation.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
There isn't one.
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