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Frustrated athiest asks why do you believe in God?

F1fan

Veteran Member
Knowing at causing are not the same thing.
Knowing and causing IS the same thing if you are God and the Creator. God knows everything, your words. And God is the creator, so everything that exists and how it functions is on God.

You are mistaken because you can't seem to get this through your head.
You fail to explain how my thinking is flawed. I'm not making your religious assumptions because I don't believe they are true. This isn't a flaw, it is rational.

You are not explaining any of your dogma coherently. You are trying to cobble together a mix of Old Testament text and Christian dogma to make a description of your God and how it supposedly acts, but doing a poor job of it, as a number of us are explaining to you.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Why not? And this assumes God controls everything.
I keep seeing these claims where God knows everything but is somehow exempt for what happens.

Since God knows everything it knows what it will do and what the consequences of what it does. So we could say that Creation is like many lines of dominoes set up, and your God pushes the first one. You insist it isn't responsible for all the there dominoes falling, but God knows that all these dominoes will fall, and will kn ow what happens with each one. God creates and set up all the dominoes, so while we humans think we have free will in reality it's new to us, but not to God. Remember, God knows everything (your words.)


That's not the way sovereignty works in relation to beings with free will. I get upset when my dog disobeys as soon as my back is turned. That doesn't mean I would turn her into a robot to save myself from having to put up with her disobedience.
Do your dogs reason deceptively behind your back like they are a twice impeached president? Or have they learned they can get away with quite a bit of bad behavior because the punishment won't be too bad? Plus, dogs, like most humans, are impulsive and act on impulse and desire. Neither are robots. Do dogs really know they are bad by getting into the trash since there is a good smell coming from it, and not much like the cheating husband who knows he's cheating on his wife?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Knowing and causing IS the same thing if you are God and the Creator. God knows everything, your words. And God is the creator, so everything that exists and how it functions is on God.
You really don't know that human free will exists? Ever watched terminator?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Do your dogs reason deceptively behind your back like they are a twice impeached president? Or have they learned they can get away with quite a bit of bad behavior because the punishment won't be too bad? Plus, dogs, like most humans, are impulsive and act on impulse and desire. Neither are robots.
Oh now you are getting it! We act on impulse and do what we should not because we choose sin over God. We are responsible for our actions, not God.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
According to your frail human logic maybe. But there's nothing that says the original humans were designed to fail, that's just your opinion. God knowing doesn't equal causing.
There is nothing that says the original humans were designed.

Question begging is a logical fallacy.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
You really don't know that human free will exists? Ever watched terminator?
Your source is a science fiction movie?

My field of study is psychology, and the prevailing explanations about the human mind works is that we don't make completely deliberate decisions, so there is no free will the way naive theists think of it. there are many influences and subconscious drivers that guild how our conscious minds make decisions. We think they are deliberate because our conscious minds are not aware of the subconscious (by definition) and do not always account for life experiences that have influenced us.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Your source is a science fiction movie?

My field of study is psychology, and the prevailing explanations about the human mind works is that we don't make completely deliberate decisions, so there is no free will the way naive theists think of it. there are many influences and subconscious drivers that guild how our conscious minds make decisions. We think they are deliberate because our conscious minds are not aware of the subconscious (by definition) and do not always account for life experiences that have influenced us.
Philosophy isn't an exact science. It's mostly guesswork. If we can not make deliberate decisions, then nothing we do is really us doing it and we are just automatons. Apparently you prefer that to having to answer to a higher power.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's not the way sovereignty works in relation to beings with free will. I get upset when my dog disobeys as soon as my back is turned. That doesn't mean I would turn her into a robot to save myself from having to put up with her disobedience.

We act on impulse and do what we should not because we choose sin over God. We are responsible for our actions, not God.

If we can not make deliberate decisions, then nothing we do is really us doing it and we are just automatons.

This robot argument doesn't make sense to me. It seems to be a justification for a deity creating a world in which people make moral errors, and it does this by suggesting that such an arrangement is preferable to one in which all people are hardwired to pursue the virtues by calling the latter robotic. I assume that what is mean by that is some kind of subhuman existence similar to zombification or lobotomy, where the human spirit disappears with the inability to make immoral choices.

I think many people would agree with me that if they had omniscience and omnipotence and wanted to create a sinless humanity, they would simply create people with only the will to do good. There is no reason to think that such a life is any less full or meaningful than one where people have to deal with competing urges and tame one of them. In fact, it ought to be a better life, one free of shame or self-loathing, one where there was no need for remorse.

Like many others, I've spent a lifetime attempting to tame these urges with some success. I haven't had the urge to steal in forever, but before then, I had to choose between stealing coins in a friend's bedroom and not. I made the wrong choice at times, and eventually learned not only not to steal, but I lost the desire. Did I become a bit robotic there when I culled the immoral impulse from my repertoire of desires? Isn't the human condition the conflict between baser survival urges inherited from our reptilian and pre-human mammalian ancestors, and the strictly human intellectual and moral imperatives arising from higher cortical centers - you know, the one represented by an angel sitting on one shoulder, a devil on the other, and the two "arguing" with one another by speaking through the ears? Those are our two friends, the base urges and the higher urges. Are we really better off having to endure this struggle, and at times failing.

Is this what is meant by not being a robot, having two voices instead of one? It seems to be if when one suggests that if the base voice were silenced and immoral impulses ceased such that if one were only hearing the angel side of his nature, he's be less than human? Think about it. That somebody who is the best that a human can be.

I've nearly god my devil side tamed. I hardly hear from it any more, that is, I rarely have the desire to do something that I later regret or experience much inner conflict, I rarely fail to heed my conscience and reasoning faculty due to its having almost no competition. Is that not also free will? Is that not exactly the path to right living and right thinking?

You wrote, "If we can not make deliberate decisions, then nothing we do is really us doing it and we are just automatons" How is what is being described not making deliberate decisions? Most of the time, we are of one mind, as I am writing these words. There is no inner conflict or urge to write immorally. I am of one mind, and I choose to follow its exhortations. Am I not making deliberate decisions when I am of one mind, or am I an automaton?

Yesterday I was in a check-out line in a market that required shoppers be masked. The woman behind me had hers under her chin. I felt the devil well up devil, and soon thereafter, the angel. The devil wanted to say something to her angrily. It wasn't hard to suppress that, but I was not able to conceal the disdain on my face. I think I failed by my own standards. I would have preferred not having to deal with that base urge, or at a minimum, completely

My wife has no such impulse. For her, there was no desire to express an opinion to her at all. She had one will. I had two in conflict. This second state, my wife's, is what is being called being a robot. My internal struggle is being called the gift of free will granted by a loving deity to avoid making man into robots, as if it were a preferred state. It's not.

This is why so many of us say that a loving god with a desire that man behave according to its rules would download those rules into his conscience, which is what we try to do with ourselves when we attempt to place our higher centers in complete control, and only indulge the base urges when the exclusively human part of approves, that is, there is no conflict between different parts of the mind.

It's also what we try to do for our children. We labor tirelessly to help them tame those base urges and direct them only to support the agenda of the higher centers, as when we try to stop siblings from "hating" one another. If we had the power, we would reach into them and purge those impulses from them. Do we think of converting them from a mind where the devil can prevail to one where it isn't even heard making them into robots? No. We think of that as raising them well.

And many of us are applying that same way of thinking to the matter of a deity that lets man fail morally by endowing him with a mind capable of generating two wills, a devil and an angel, rather than one, just an angel. Isn't that the model for God, who we are told only wants to do good, and has no internal moral struggle? Isn't that the robot that apologists describe when others suggest that being of one perfectly moral mind would be the preferred state in man as well?

This is why I reject the idea of mans present condition of living in a head with more than one will, one of which will cause him to make moral errors, as a preferred state. It's not. It's the one that evolution has given us. The beasts don't have these moral dilemmas for lack of a conscience, and the perfected soul also doesn't have moral dilemmas, like a god wouldn't. It's poor humanity caught between these two worlds, the one he came from and the one he is headed toward, who experiences moral dilemmas and shame.

Once again, this is not a gift. Nor is it desirable. But it's what we have and who we are, so the religious apologist attempts to make it seem desirable, since he believes that it is the design of a tri-omni God. And to attempt to defend this arrangement, when the skeptic says that if he were God, he would make man of one mind and perfectly moral, the apologist says, "God doesn't want robots." It sounds good until one looks at the comment closely as I have tried to do here.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
had omniscience and omnipotence and wanted to create a sinless humanity, they would simply create people with only the will to do good.
You assume that's possible for God to do and still have a real relationship with his people. I don't believe it. Even the angels had free will. Perhaps they still do, but it seems like once they made their choice for God, they didn't look back and regret. And the ones who chose Lucifer at the very least can not as far as we are told return to God. Of course we can make a certain choice over and over again until it becomes almost impossible to make another choice. Still doesn't make us a robot, the other possibilities still exist for us.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Is this what is meant by not being a robot, having two voices instead of one? It seems to be if when one suggests that if the base voice were silenced and immoral impulses ceased such that if one were only hearing the angel side of his nature, he's be less than human? Think about it. That somebody who is the best that a human can be.
Because he made that choice! Not because it was imposed by him irresistibly by an all controlling Being. This is what the holy spirit does for someone who is consistently listening, BTW. If the choices were all made for us, we would not be us at all. Think about it... We would just be an empty shell channeling the higher power. How many choices do we make every day? Let's say I only make one choice that I consider wrong today. I still violated my conscience and feel guilty. That's not a bad thing, but most people in popular society would disagree... guilt has become out of fashion. And that doesn't mean I necessarily have to do anything wrong, just thinking about it letting it take over my thoughts even temporarily is still an action. Most of us don't understand the potential we have for good or evil. Jordan Peterson talks about this at some length in one of his videos about how he met people in prison. And the guy he thought was a nice person, he found out later was a cold blooded killer... And it bothered him, because he thought of himself as a nice person. But then you realize how easy it would be to do the unthinkable in a certain situation. And you realize you're not really as nice as you thought, and everyone has the potential for serious evil within. Until you comes to terms with that, you don't really know yourself.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
It's also what we try to do for our children. We labor tirelessly to help them tame those base urges and direct them only to support the agenda of the higher centers, as when we try to stop siblings from "hating" one another. If we had the power, we would reach into them and purge those impulses from them. Do we think of converting them from a mind where the devil can prevail to one where it isn't even heard making them into robots? No. We think of that as raising them well.
If it's not thier choice, it's meaningless, though. You don't understand when I say no free will if we can't make choices that is exactly what I mean. If you could just push a button at the base of their neck and they would do whatever you wanted, they would not be free people with their own personalities. That's what determinists think the universe does, or God does, control everything, down to every firing of a neurons in our brains. If that was the world we lived in, certainly it would be less chaotic, assuming a good God in control, but it would not be the testing ground this current reality is meant to be.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Oh now you are getting it! We act on impulse and do what we should not because we choose sin over God. We are responsible for our actions, not God.
Speak for yourself. I don't act "on impulse." Rather, I act on a careful consideration of the consequences of my actions on myself and others.
Don't you?

God is responsible for the whole set-up. That's the point you keep missing here. God set things up as they are, and then seems surprised by how everything didn't turn out as "he" planned and then has to set up a whole new situation that fails as well. Over and over. That's on him, not us.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Philosophy isn't an exact science. It's mostly guesswork. If we can not make deliberate decisions, then nothing we do is really us doing it and we are just automatons. Apparently you prefer that to having to answer to a higher power.
That poster is a psychologist, not a philosopher.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Lol.. you really don't get it.

Great argument you got there. :rolleyes:

So when you wish to know the temperature of something, do you stick your finger in it and go by how "hot" or "cold" it feels, or do you think you might get a more accurate answer if you use a thermometer instead?

And thus use an objective measuring device instead of your own subjective hot/cold sensation in your finger?

Who's the one who doesn't get it?
 
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