Frustrated athiest asks why do you believe in God?

[ppp]

Be being told...my dogs can even understand that kind of wrong and right.

Yes they can. We're not talking about the real world. We're talking about the story in the bible. The one where neither Adam nor Eve have a concept of good and evil pre-fruit.

 

[F1fan]

According to your faulty human logic perhaps it appears that way.

Then correct my logic. I notice you avoid correcting my frail, and faulty logic. So please show me how I'm mistaken.

God gave them what they needed but they made the wrong choice.

And God knew they would make the wrong choice. Remember, you say God knows everything.

And if God is perfect and wanted to create humans that obey rules, why did they not obey? Couldn't God create beings that are obedient?

And it never said God sent the serpent, he also had Free will.

Who made the serpent? Why did it end up in the Garden? Accident? Bad luck? And God knew the serpent would be there and tempt them. Remember, you say God knows everything.

 

[F1fan]

Be being told...my dogs can even understand that kind of wrong and right.

But how many times did they NOT obey you before they figured it out with rewards? Your dogs were not obedient out of the box, were they? How many piles of poop did you clean up first? A&E had one shot, and had no second chances because they had no experience or knowledge or wisdom. That was the set up.

Would you have euthanized your dogs if you told them on day one to be obedient and they didn't understand?

 

[SkepticThinker]

It doesn't make sense to be moral in a world where only the strongest survive.

First of all, that's not true.

Secondly, why do you believe that? Why do you think morality must come from something outside of us, in order to have any significance?
I care about morality because I have empathy and I realize I have to share the planet with everybody else on it, and I'd like us all to live as harmoniously as possible in order to ensure that all human beings flourish as maximally as possible. Because it not only helps me and my loved ones, it helps other people and society as a whole. Societies who don't care about such things tend to die off.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It didn't fail.

Except that it did. Several times. As noted.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Then your explanation doesn't make any sense, because I've seen nothing that shows what God did was immoral, just the opposite. He could have just not given us live, knowing we would reject him more often than not, but he gave us every chance anyway.

Your explanation is no where to be found. Why is it moral for people to scapegoat their responsibilities onto a blood sacrifice instead of atoning for their actions directly to the person they have wronged? In your scenario, the victim basically gets screwed while the perpetrator just gets off scot-free. I say the moral thing to do is to atone for one's actions by making it up to the victim.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I have heard this before. But until someone can reconcile God becoming angry at things in the Bible I don't give it much credit.

There's no contradiction there. God has emotions but they aren't our emotions. He doesn't need us to be good for some kind of affirmation to his ego. He doesn't have a human ego. He is everything it's possible to be already. He can be angry at our stupidity for our sakes, because it costs us ..it doesn't effect his existence. So this makes the incarnation entirely for our benefit.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Your explanation is no where to be found. Why is it moral for people to scapegoat their responsibilities onto a blood sacrifice instead of atoning for their actions directly to the person they have wronged? In your scenario, the victim basically gets screwed while the perpetrator just gets off scot-free. I say the moral thing to do is to atone for one's actions by making it up to the victim.

Then we are all screwed and bound for hell. Because we all are the perpetrator.
Mercy is a good thing.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I have not lost any argument.

@Wildswanderer
based on what I have seen in this thread you are passionate about Christian apologetics. If I may, you might want to research apologetics, logical fallacies, Christian doctrine, history, and atheist views ( know thy enemy ) to avoid time wasting back-and-forths, circular conversations, and generally losing arguments.

 

[Wildswanderer]

That's only because you're not in control. If you were in control you would not feel that frustration.

Why not? And this assumes God controls everything. That's not the way sovereignty works in relation to beings with free will. I get upset when my dog disobeys as soon as my back is turned. That doesn't mean I would turn her into a robot to save myself from having to put up with her disobedience.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Then correct my logic. I notice you avoid correcting my frail, and faulty logic. So please show me how I'm mistaken.


And God knew they would make the wrong choice. Remember, you say God knows everything.

And if God is perfect and wanted to create humans that obey rules, why did they not obey? Couldn't God create beings that are obedient?


Who made the serpent? Why did it end up in the Garden? Accident? Bad luck? And God knew the serpent would be there and tempt them. Remember, you say God knows everything.

Knowing at causing are not the same thing. You are mistaken because you can't seem to get this through your head.

 

[Wildswanderer]

But how many times did they NOT obey you before they figured it out with rewards? Your dogs were not obedient out of the box, were they? How many piles of poop did you clean up first? A&E had one shot, and had no second chances because they had no experience or knowledge or wisdom. That was the set up.

Would you have euthanized your dogs if you told them on day one to be obedient and they didn't understand?

Adam and Eve understood that God didn't want them to eat from the tree, just like my dog understood this morning and I did not want her to chew on something that I left within her reach. Yet, as soon as I was out of sight she chewed it anyway. Punishment is appropriate for learning and God punishes not just because of the crime but because they now understand evil. They can't be allowed to live forever in that state. ( They would become more evil until there was no good left in them) So, instead he implemented the plan to save us from our own failure instead of just resetting creation. This involved his own death as a human.
And yes, I've had to euthanize dogs when they bit someone.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I care about morality because I have empathy and I realize I have to share the planet with everybody else on it, and I'd like us all to live as harmoniously as possible in order to ensure that all human beings flourish as maximally as possible.

Why should that matter if life is just about pleasure and then you are gone? Why would you have emphatic feelings in a world created by chance? "Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die." That's all there is in a reality that ends at the grave.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There's no contradiction there. God has emotions but they aren't our emotions. He doesn't need us to be good for some kind of affirmation to his ego. He doesn't have a human ego. He is everything it's possible to be already. He can be angry at our stupidity for our sakes, because it costs us ..it doesn't effect his existence. So this makes the incarnation entirely for our benefit.

These are all assertions, not in evidence.

 

[ppp]

There's no contradiction there. God has emotions but they aren't our emotions. He doesn't need us to be good for some kind of affirmation to his ego. He doesn't have a human ego. He is everything it's possible to be already. He can be angry at our stupidity for our sakes, because it costs us ..it doesn't effect his existence. So this makes the incarnation entirely for our benefit.

I'm sorry, but no. You cannot use a word, such as angry, with a given meaning, then imply it means something else without providing that alternate meaning. That is just playing a shell game with definitions.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Then we are all screwed and bound for hell. Because we all are the perpetrator.
Mercy is a good thing.

According to your beliefs, which you have not demonstrated to be true. Nor have you demonstrated how such a thing is a moral action, while I've explained why I don't think it's a moral action.

According to my beliefs this is the one life we know we get for sure, and we should strive to make it the best life for the most amount of people as possible.

 

[Wildswanderer]

"feeling or showing strong annoyance, displeasure, or hostility"
Nothing about frustration in there.

I'm sorry, but no. You cannot use a word, such as angry, with a given meaning, then imply it means something else without providing that alternate meaning. That is just playing a shell game with definitions.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Why not? And this assumes God controls everything. That's not the way sovereignty works in relation to beings with free will. I get upset when my dog disobeys as soon as my back is turned. That doesn't mean I would turn her into a robot to save myself from having to put up with her disobedience.

What's wrong with having a bunch of happy robots, none of which can end up being tortured for eternity?

 

[Wildswanderer]

According to your beliefs, which you have not demonstrated to be true. Nor have you demonstrated how such a thing is a moral action, while I've explained why I don't think it's a moral action.

Only the explanation didn't make any sense....

 

[Wildswanderer]

What's wrong with having a bunch of happy robots, none of which can end up being tortured for eternity?

Robots can't love ..that only possible in a world where choices are real.