Gaudiya Vaishnavism queries and discussion thread.

[Aupmanyav]

Hinduism was never really in decline, even during the 1000 years of Muslim domination. It is during that time that all Vaishnava acharyas expounded their philosophies. In older time, Hinduism did not have a strife with Buddhism or Jainism. With the open heartedness of Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism were among the populace, not seperate religions, but more like different paths/sects of Hinduism. Hindu rulers and populace respected the Jain and Buddhist monks and took care of their needs. Buddha was accepted as the ninth avatara of Lord Vishnu. The Buddhist institutions Taxila, Vikramshila and Nalanda were active much after Buddhism lost its steam in India, and were destroyed only by Muslim invaders. Thereafter we lost one third of our numbers to Islam due to forced conversions. (But we are still a billion strong)

 

[Kirran]

A nice thread for the Gaudiyas here, but I think it'd be nicer for y'all if we got a Gaudiya, or at least Vaishnava, sub-DIR!

 

[निताइ dasa]

A nice thread for the Gaudiyas here, but I think it'd be nicer for y'all if we got a Gaudiya, or at least Vaishnava, sub-DIR!

Pranam /\ Yes that would be nice. Though this thread was also to resolve any questions people may have about the Gaudiya Sampradaya

 

[Kirran]

Pranam /\ Yes that would be nice. Though this thread was also to resolve any questions people may have about the Gaudiya Sampradaya

That would be accommodated within a DIR, where non-adherents are allowed to ask respectful questions

Jai Sri Krishna!

 

[Shantanu]

Pranam /\ Yes that would be nice. Though this thread was also to resolve any questions people may have about the Gaudiya Sampradaya

Hello, Nitai; I have a question: how does Guadiya Sampradaya treat the issue of Vishwaroopa in real life?

 

[निताइ dasa]

Hello, Nitai; I have a question: how does Guadiya Sampradaya treat the issue of Vishwaroopa in real life?

Nitai! Pranam. Thank you for your kind question. I am confused by your term of Vishwaroopa. By it, do you mean the universal form described in Rg Veda and Bhagavatam Gita? The term itself can have different meaning based upon context.

 

[निताइ dasa]

That would be accommodated within a DIR, where non-adherents are allowed to ask respectful questions

Jai Sri Krishna!

Ahh okay I understand. Jaya Shiva Shankara! Your profile picture reminded me of the Shivatsakam, composed by Lord Gauranga Mahaprabhu (the founder of our Sampradaya, whom we concider to be the Yuga-Avatar of Kaliyuga). I would like to post a few verses of it, if I may (for my own purification):

namo namas te tri-dasesvaraya, bhutadi-nathaya mridaya nityam
ganga-tarangotthita-bala-candra-cudaya gauri-nayanotsavaya

"I perpetually offer obeisances unto you, the lord of the thirty primal devas, who are the original father of created beings, whose character is gracious, upon whose head, which is crested by the sickle moon, the Ganga springs, and who are a festival for the eyes of Gauri, the fair goddess."

sudhasu-suryagni-vilocanena, tamo-bhide te jagatah sivaya
sahasra-subhrasu-sahasra-rasmi-sahasra-sanjittvara-tejase 'stu

"I offer my obeisances to you who dispel darkness with your three eyes - the moon, the sun, and fire - and thus cause auspiciousness for all the living entities of the universe, and whose potency easily defeats thousands of moons and suns."

su-nupuraranjita-pada-padma-karat-sudha-bhtya-sukha-pradaya
vicitra-ratnaugha-vibhuitaya, premanam evadya harau vidhehi

"I offer my obeisances to you who bestow happiness to your servitors as you pour upon them the liquid nectar flowing from your reddish lotus feet, upon which charming anklebells ring. Obeisances unto you who are adorned by an abundance of gems. Please endow Me today with pure love for Shri Hari."

shri-rama govinda mukunda saure, shri-krsna narayana vasudeva
ity adi-namamta-pana-matta-bhngadhipayakhila-duhkha-hantre 18

"`O Shri Rama! O Govinda! O Mukunda! O Sauri! O Shri Krishna! O Narayana! O Vasudeva!' I offer my obeisances unto you, Shri Siva, who are the monarch ruling over all the bee-like devotees who are mad to drink the nectar of these and other innumerable names of Hari, and who thus destroys all grief."

 

[Shantanu]

Nitai! Pranam. Thank you for your kind question. I am confused by the term Vishwaroopa. By it, do you mean the universal form described in Rg Veda and Bhagavatam Gita?

I am not versed in the scriptures so I will explain what I mean and you can help me through. I am a devotee of Sri Krishna but self-comprehended with my own ideas that I form about God as I go through my life. So I do not belong to any sampradayas. So please be a litte patient with my question.

I only know of Vishwaroopa from the Mahabharratta. We seem to have two references in it to Vishwaroopa, first early on (to Duryodhana? please correct me if I am wrong) and the second that I am more sure about is when Krishna shows to Arjuna the entire world to be within the mouth (when He opened his mouth and Arjuna was overwhelmed with what He saw?). So from this I think that as Supreme God, Sri Krishna Himself has created all living beings and is indwelling in all human beings and in wider Nature. I do not know what Rg Veda says about Vishwarupa, so please tell me.

From Vishwaroopa of Sri Krishna I understand that Sri Krishna is saying that good, indifferent and evil (people) are all part of Sri Krishna in some way. But in what way? How has He made Nature that way? This is what I am trying to understand. So I thought a Gaudiya Vaishnava may be able to help me.

Thanks.

 

[Terese]

You are confusing two stories. Yashoda (krishna's mother) wanted to open Krishna's mouth because he ate dirt (he was a child then) and when he opened his mouth she saw the entire universe. Second is Arjuna seeing Krishna's vishvaroop (Narayana) and seeing magnificence incarnate, the light of 1000 suns, even more! This is in the Bhagavad Gita, where Krishna talks to Arjuna about many mysteries of life, and how to attain moksha the easiest way. Krishna is in all of us in the way that our atmas are Krishna himself, although with difference, and that he dwells in us, and out of us.

 

[निताइ dasa]

I am not versed in the scriptures so I will explain what I mean and you can help me through. I am a devotee of Sri Krishna but self-comprehended with my own ideas that I form about God as I go through my life. So I do not belong to any sampradayas. So please be a litte patient with my question.

I only know of Vishwaroopa from the Mahabharratta. We seem to have two references in it to Vishwaroopa, first early on (to Duryodhana? please correct me if I am wrong) and the second that I am more sure about is when Krishna shows to Arjuna the entire world to be within the mouth (when He opened his mouth and Arjuna was overwhelmed with what He saw?). So from this I think that as Supreme God, Sri Krishna Himself has created all living beings and is indwelling in all human beings and in wider Nature. I do not know what Rg Veda says about Vishwarupa, so please tell me.

From Vishwaroopa of Sri Krishna I understand that Sri Krishna is saying that good, indifferent and evil (people) are all part of Sri Krishna in some way. But in what way? How has He made Nature that way? This is what I am trying to understand. So I thought a Gaudiya Vaishnava may be able to help me.

Thanks.

Haribol!! You are attracted to Sri Krsna, which means you have His mercy. Please when you meet Him, remember me, so that I can also get His blessing. I will try and give an explanation as per what has been taught to me.

The Vishwaroopa form of the Lord, does not, according to us, mean that God is everything; rather that God pervades and supports everything. This is confirmed in Gita, when Sri Krsna says "mayi sarvam idam protam sutre mani-gana iva" or "I am the support of everything, just as jewels are strung on a string". This is also confirmed by Isoupanisad, ("Isavasyam idam sarvam", or God owns and pervades everything). That is why when Sri Krsna shows the Viswarupa to Arjuna, He is trying to shows that He is the source of everything. It is our humble opinion that everything, is supported by and dependent with God, as all phenomena around us are simply a transformation of His inconceivable energies. The Gita identifies three major energies of the Lord:

1) Maya Shakti (or Bahirunga Shakti): This energy of the Lord manifests the material nature (composed of the 5 elements+senses+mind) and the three Gunas (Sattva, Raja and Tama). This energy is the most inferior of the Lord.

2) Jiva Shakti (or Tathasta Shakti): This energy of the Lord, also known as the Brahmajyoti (called Brahman in the Upanisad) is from which the jivas (living beings like us) are manifest. The jivas are like tiny sparks emerging from the flame-like Brahmajyoti (or rays coming out of the sun). The Jiva however is very tiny, while the Brahmajyoti is infinite; therefore it our conclusion that the Jiva is both one (qualitatively) yet different (quantitatively) from the Lord. This is why our philosophy is called Acintya bhedabheda (inconceivable difference and one-ness).

3) Antarunga Shakti (or internal potency). This energy is from which the Sat-Cid-Ananda Form, Qualities, Name and Pastimes of the Lord manifest. It is the highest feature of the Lord, and when the Lord is situated in this feature, He is called Bhagavan or Parabrahman. It is from this feature that spiritual realms, as well as the Associates of the Lord also appear.

Now, the Jiva Shakti, is by nature marginal (it has free will) and so it may become overwhelmed by the Maya Shakti or the Antarunga Shakti. Those Jivas who choose the former(called anandi or nitya baddha), fall into the material world composed of the 3 Gunas and thus must accept a material body and enter an endless cycle of Karma. Those Jivas who choose the latter (called Nitya Siddha), never suffer, and go to the spiritual realm and experience eternal and ever increasing happiness in the Lord's Lila.


That is the basics of Gaudiya Siddhanta. Thus when Sri Krsna is showing this Vishwarupa, he is showing that all of material creation (composed of the Maya Shakti) is actually within Him and also dependant on Him. I hope this has clarified your question a bit. (I'm sorry, I don't know much about this myself).

 

[Shantanu]

You are confusing two stories. Yashoda (krishna's mother) wanted to open Krishna's mouth because he ate dirt (he was a child then) and when he opened his mouth she saw the entire universe. Second is Arjuna seeing Krishna's vishvaroop (Narayana) and seeing magnificence incarnate, the light of 1000 suns, even more! This is in the Bhagavad Gita, where Krishna talks to Arjuna about many mysteries of life, and how to attain moksha the easiest way. Krishna is in all of us in the way that our atmas are Krishna himself, although with difference, and that he dwells in us, and out of us.

Thank you very for pointing me to the right story on Yashoda.

 

[Shantanu]

Haribol!! You are attracted to Sri Krsna, which means you have His mercy. Please when you meet Him, remember me, so that I can also get His blessing. I will try and give an explanation as per what has been taught to me.

The Vishwaroopa form of the Lord, does not, according to us, mean that God is everything; rather that God pervades and supports everything. This is confirmed in Gita, when Sri Krsna says "mayi sarvam idam protam sutre mani-gana iva" or "I am the support of everything, just as jewels are strung on a string". This is also confirmed by Isoupanisad, ("Isavasyam idam sarvam", or God owns and pervades everything). That is why when Sri Krsna shows the Viswarupa to Arjuna, He is trying to shows that He is the source of everything. It is our humble opinion that everything, is supported by and dependent with God, as all phenomena around us are simply a transformation of His inconceivable energies. The Gita identifies three major energies of the Lord:

1) Maya Shakti (or Bahirunga Shakti): This energy of the Lord manifests the material nature (composed of the 5 elements+senses+mind) and the three Gunas (Sattva, Raja and Tama). This energy is the most inferior of the Lord.

2) Jiva Shakti (or Tathasta Shakti): This energy of the Lord, also known as the Brahmajyoti (called Brahman in the Upanisad) is from which the jivas (living beings like us) are manifest. The jivas are like tiny sparks emerging from the flame-like Brahmajyoti (or rays coming out of the sun). The Jiva however is very tiny, while the Brahmajyoti is infinite; therefore it our conclusion that the Jiva is both one (qualitatively) yet different (quantitatively) from the Lord. This is why our philosophy is called Acintya bhedabheda (inconceivable difference and one-ness).

3) Antarunga Shakti (or internal potency). This energy is from which the Sat-Cid-Ananda Form, Qualities, Name and Pastimes of the Lord manifest. It is the highest feature of the Lord, and when the Lord is situated in this feature, He is called Bhagavan or Parabrahman. It is from this feature that spiritual realms, as well as the Associates of the Lord also appear.

Now, the Jiva Shakti, is by nature marginal (it has free will) and so it may become overwhelmed by the Maya Shakti or the Antarunga Shakti. Those Jivas who choose the former(called anandi or nitya baddha), fall into the material world composed of the 3 Gunas and thus must accept a material body and enter an endless cycle of Karma. Those Jivas who choose the latter (called Nitya Siddha), never suffer, and go to the spiritual realm and experience eternal and ever increasing happiness in the Lord's Lila.


That is the basics of Gaudiya Siddhanta. Thus when Sri Krsna is showing this Vishwarupa, he is showing that all of material creation (composed of the Maya Shakti) is actually within Him and also dependant on Him. I hope this has clarified your question a bit. (I'm sorry, I don't know much about this myself).

Thank you for this explanation. I am attracted to the idea that the entire universe is governed through a guna-consciousness energy which has the sattva, raja and tama triad of deities.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are confusing two stories.

Haha, no. Even Arjuna also mentions the Lord's mouth in BhagawadGita.
BG 11.30: O Vishnu, I see You devouring all people from all sides with Your flaming mouths. Covering all the universe with Your effulgence, You are manifest with terrible, scorching rays.
..
BG 11.45: After seeing this universal form, which I have never seen before, I am gladdened, but at the same time my mind is disturbed with fear. Therefore please bestow Your grace upon me and reveal again Your auspicious form, O Lord of lords, O abode of the universe.

 

[kalyan]

Haribol!! You are attracted to Sri Krsna, which means you have His mercy. Please when you meet Him, remember me, so that I can also get His blessing. I will try and give an explanation as per what has been taught to me.

The Vishwaroopa form of the Lord, does not, according to us, mean that God is everything; rather that God pervades and supports everything. This is confirmed in Gita, when Sri Krsna says "mayi sarvam idam protam sutre mani-gana iva" or "I am the support of everything, just as jewels are strung on a string". This is also confirmed by Isoupanisad, ("Isavasyam idam sarvam", or God owns and pervades everything). That is why when Sri Krsna shows the Viswarupa to Arjuna, He is trying to shows that He is the source of everything. It is our humble opinion that everything, is supported by and dependent with God, as all phenomena around us are simply a transformation of His inconceivable energies. The Gita identifies three major energies of the Lord:

1) Maya Shakti (or Bahirunga Shakti): This energy of the Lord manifests the material nature (composed of the 5 elements+senses+mind) and the three Gunas (Sattva, Raja and Tama). This energy is the most inferior of the Lord.

2) Jiva Shakti (or Tathasta Shakti): This energy of the Lord, also known as the Brahmajyoti (called Brahman in the Upanisad) is from which the jivas (living beings like us) are manifest. The jivas are like tiny sparks emerging from the flame-like Brahmajyoti (or rays coming out of the sun). The Jiva however is very tiny, while the Brahmajyoti is infinite; therefore it our conclusion that the Jiva is both one (qualitatively) yet different (quantitatively) from the Lord. This is why our philosophy is called Acintya bhedabheda (inconceivable difference and one-ness).

3) Antarunga Shakti (or internal potency). This energy is from which the Sat-Cid-Ananda Form, Qualities, Name and Pastimes of the Lord manifest. It is the highest feature of the Lord, and when the Lord is situated in this feature, He is called Bhagavan or Parabrahman. It is from this feature that spiritual realms, as well as the Associates of the Lord also appear.

Now, the Jiva Shakti, is by nature marginal (it has free will) and so it may become overwhelmed by the Maya Shakti or the Antarunga Shakti. Those Jivas who choose the former(called anandi or nitya baddha), fall into the material world composed of the 3 Gunas and thus must accept a material body and enter an endless cycle of Karma. Those Jivas who choose the latter (called Nitya Siddha), never suffer, and go to the spiritual realm and experience eternal and ever increasing happiness in the Lord's Lila.


That is the basics of Gaudiya Siddhanta. Thus when Sri Krsna is showing this Vishwarupa, he is showing that all of material creation (composed of the Maya Shakti) is actually within Him and also dependant on Him. I hope this has clarified your question a bit. (I'm sorry, I don't know much about this myself).

very good post

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram terese ji

Ratikala what caused Hinduism to be at such a decline in India?

like Aupmanyav ji l too would say that there has not been so much of a decline followed by a resurection , it is just that there have been times when many Darmic traditions survived side by side , it is when one finds particular patronage with a powerfull king or ruling family that it will flourish where others seem not to , this is not nececarily a decline , many say that Buddhism went into decline and claim this to be because of some defeat on a philosopical level , ...when in reality Buddhism in lndia began to decline in ita ability to maintain its role to administer to the leity when it lost the patronage of the Gupta dynasty , this happens many times throughout lndia's history when a powerfull family supports a temple or a monastic order great temples are built , ...without the continued support these institutions will naturaly go into decline in nunbers , ...this does not mean that they cease to function it more often means that they are supported by a smaller number of loyal devotees , ...we must not forget that the Brahminical castes , the preists originaly acted as advisors to the Kshatrya ruling class and that each were intended to support each other , the rulng classes providing the patronage which allowed the temples to fullfill their functions and the Brahmins in return fulfilled the role of moral and spiritual advisors to the Kshatryas , ....whos duty it was to provide stability for their subjects , ...

what has brought the largest decline over the last 5000 years , is the colapse of this system , ..if you read the Mahabarata you will see how this system works , and why Sri Krsna is so insistant that rightious rule is established before the onset of Kaliyuga , ..as it is explained that in this last and most degraded age of kali we will find it harder to follow Dharmic principles , personal greed and irreligosity will increase , ...this is the unavoidable nature of creation there must be an eventual decline before the final anihilation , ...in this the fourth yuga we are forgetfull of our true nature , we are argumentative and self obsessed , thus there is less true understanding of God , thus we become opinionated and quarelsome , strife becomes increasingly commonplace , ...thus where once dharmic faiths could live peacefully along side each other apreciating each others piety and devotion , we now find strife not just between oposing religions but also find argument between sects which trace their origins to the same vedic tradition , ...

Thereafter we lost one third of our numbers to Islam due to forced conversions. (But we are still a billion strong)

it would be interesting to know how many devotees have been gained in recent years from the intriduction of vedic culture in the western world ?

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram prabhu ji's

on the subject of the universal form , yes the context is very important .... Bhagavad Gita , .... chapter 11, ....


If You think that I am able to behold Your cosmic form, O my Lord, O master of all mystic power, then kindly show me that universal self. .....v ..4

The Blessed Lord said: My dear Arjuna, O son of Pṛthā, behold now My opulences, hundreds of thousands of varied divine forms, multicolored like the sea. ...v ..5

But you cannot see Me with your present eyes. Therefore I give to you divine eyes by which you can behold My mystic opulence. ...v ..8

here both Krsna and rjuna refer specificaly to the lords personal form , ...''Your cosmic form'' ...''behold now My opulences'' ....''My mystic opulance''

Sanjaya said: O King, speaking thus, the Supreme, the Lord of all mystic power, the Personality of Godhead, displayed His universal form to Arjuna. ..v ..9

Arjuna saw in that universal form unlimited mouths and unlimited eyes. It was all wondrous. The form was decorated with divine, dazzling ornaments and arrayed in many garbs. He was garlanded gloriously, and there were many scents smeared over His body. All was magnificent, all-expanding, unlimited. This was seen by Arjuna. ...v ..10-11

here importance must be given to the two words , ...''divine'' and ''unlimited'' .... as it dscribes the lords nature , ..


''lf hundreds of thousands of suns rose up at once into the sky, they might resemble the effulgence of the Supreme Person in that universal form.'' ....v ..12

At that time Arjuna could see in the universal form of the Lord the unlimited expansions of the universe situated in one place although divided into many, many thousands.
Then, bewildered and astonished, his hair standing on end, Arjuna began to pray with folded hands, offering obeisances to the Supreme Lord. ...v ..13

the unlimited expansions of the supreme , ...


Arjuna said: My dear Lord Kṛṣṇa, I see assembled together in Your body all the demigods and various other living entities. I see Brahmā sitting on the lotus flower as well as Lord Śiva and many sages and divine serpents. ..v ..15

O Lord of the universe, I see in Your universal body many, many forms-bellies, mouths, eyes-expanded without limit. There is no end, there is no beginning, and there is no middle to all this. ...v ..16

all the demi gods , ...sages and divine serpents, ...there is no begining to this , no middle therefore no end , ...

You are the supreme primal objective; You are the best in all the universes; You are inexhaustible, and You are the oldest; You are the maintainer of religion, the eternal Personality of Godhead. ...v ..18

You are the origin without beginning, middle or end. You have numberless arms, and the sun and moon are among Your great unlimited eyes. By Your own radiance You are heating this entire universe. ...v ..19

''you are the eternal'' ...''the origin''

Although You are one, You are spread throughout the sky and the planets and all space between. O great one, as I behold this terrible form, I see that all the planetary systems are perplexed. ...v ...20

All the demigods are surrendering and entering into You. They are very much afraid, and with folded hands they are singing the Vedic hymns. ...v ..21

thus only because Arjuna has been granted divine sight can he see even what is beyond the understanding of the planetary systems and their presiding Deities , ..

this l hope gives meaning to Sri Krsnas revelation that , ....''all beings are in Me'', ...
By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.
ch ..9 v ..4

this universal form is the lords opulance and the lords opulance alone , ...

And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me. Behold My mystic opulence! Although I am the maintainer of all living entities, and although I am everywhere, still My Self is the very source of creation. .....ch ..9 v ..5

As the mighty wind, blowing everywhere, always rests in ethereal space know that in the same manner all beings rest in Me. .....ch ..9 v ..6

That is the basics of Gaudiya Siddhanta. Thus when Sri Krsna is showing this Vishwarupa, he is showing that all of material creation (composed of the Maya Shakti) is actually within Him and also dependant on Him. I hope this has clarified your question a bit. (I'm sorry, I don't know much about this myself).

jai jai , ...within him and dependant upon him , ...yes entiely , ....

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Shantanu ji

Thank you for this explanation. I am attracted to the idea that the entire universe is governed through a guna-consciousness energy which has the sattva, raja and tama triad of deities.

from the Gaudia perspective the idea of having a triad of deities relates only to material nature, ...to the creation of material universes , ...the triad of deities in this respect are expansions of the one supreme , and appointed the functions of creation , maintainance and destruction of this material nature which is comprised of sattva rajas and tamas , ....

 

[Aupmanyav]

it would be interesting to know how many devotees have been gained in recent years from the intriduction of vedic culture in the western world?

I will like an increase in the number of smartas.

 

[Chakra]

I remember when I was a Gaudiya-influenced Vaishnava, things were just so positive, colorful, and exciting. The festivals, temples, etc are just amazing and creates a whole different experience (not saying that other sects don't provide the same experience). It's a beautiful religion, for sure.

 

[Chakra]

Also, Nityananda seems to have been an absolute sweetheart. I've read the Chaitanya and the Nityananda Charitmrita, and I hope no one gets offended if I say this, but I loved reading about Nityananda the most. What a pleasant saint!