Gaudiya Vaishnavism queries and discussion thread.

[निताइ dasa]

What does it say

Nitai! I will post the first chapter of Nityananda Charitamrta here:


"From the day of His appearance, the whole of Radha-desa (Nitai's birthplace) became all-auspicious. Famine, poverty, and other distresses at once disappeared. A short distance from Ekacakra, the Deity of Mauresvara is present. Lord Nityananda, who is non-different from Lord Balarama, had worshipped this Deity. In the village of Ekacakra lived Hadai Pandita. He was a qualified brahmana, very detached, and full of compassion. His wife's name was Padmavati, who was very chaste and an exalted devotee. She was the mother of the universe. Both Hadai Pandita and Padmavati Devi were very magnanimous. Lord Nityananda appeared in their family out of His own sweet will. On the auspicious thirteenth day of the waxing moon in the month of Magha (January-February), Lord Nityananda made His appearance. He was the eldest among the sons of Hadai Pandita. Seeing His all-auspicious symptoms, everyoneís eyes filled with joy.

In time, Lord Nityananda began to grow. Due to the influence of His illusory energy, however, no one could recognize Him. Lord Nityananda concealed His real identity and happily played with His boyhood friends.

Whatever pastimes He enjoyed with His childhood friends were all related with the pastimes of Lord Krishna. He and His friends formed an assembly of demigods, and one of them acted as mother earth praying to the rest of them. Then they led mother earth to the riverbank where all the children began to offer prayers. One boy, hiding from the rest, loudly declared, "I will soon take birth in Mathura, Gokula."

One night, the Lord and His friends enacted the marriage of Vasudeva and Devaki. Another night, while everyone was asleep, they made a jail cell enacting the birth of Lord Krishna. They made one place into Gokula. Taking baby Krishna there, he was exchanged with Mahamaya, tricking Kamsa. Another time, they dressed someone as Putana. Someone climbed on her chest to suck her breast. One day Lord Nityananda and His friends made a sakata, or handcart, out of reeds and then broke it. Another day, the Lord and His friends stole from the houses of the neighboring cowherd men. The boys never left Nityananda to go home, but sported with Him day and night. The children's parents never complained, rather they affectionately embraced Nityananda. They said, "We've never seen such transcendental sports. How does this child know so many of Krishnaís pastimes?"

One day, the Lord made snakes out of leaves and took His friends to the water. One of them jumped into the water and did not move. Later, the Lord brought him back to consciousness. Another day, the Lord and His friends went to Talavana where they killed Dhenukasura and then ate tala fruits. Lord Nityananda and his childhood friends went to the fields and enjoyed various pastimes such as the killing of Bakasura, Aghasura, and Vatsasura. In the afternoon, the Lord and His friends returned home blowing buffalo horns.

One day they enjoyed the pastime of lifting the Govardhana Hill, and another day they created a Vrindavana where they enjoyed various sports. Once they enacted Krishnaís pastimes of stealing the gopiís clothes and another day enacted His meeting the wives of the brahmanas. On one occasion, a boy dressed up with a false beard as Narada gave Kamsa some secret news. Another day, a boy dressed as Akrura took Krishna and Balarama to Kamsaís capital. As Lord Nityananda cried in the mood of the gopis, it seemed to His friends that a river was flowing from His eyes.

By the influence of Lord Vishnu's illusory energy, no one could recognize Lord Nityananda as He enjoyed pastimes with His friends. The children arranged a city of Mathura and then wandered through its streets. Someone played the role of a gardener, while another accepted a flower garland from him. Someone dressed as Kubja and sandalwood paste was accepted from her. They made a large bow and all shouted in joy when it was broken. They also enacted the pastimes of killing Kuvalaya elephant and the wrestlers, Canura and Mushtika. Thereafter the Lord chastised Kamsa by grabbing him by the hair and throwing him on the ground. After killing Kamsa, the Lord danced with His friends in such a way that everyone watching Him began to laugh. In this way, Lord Nityananda and His friends imitated the pastimes of various incarnations.

One day, Lord Nityananda dressed as Vamana and went to cheat Bali Maharaja out of his kingdom, which covered the three worlds. Someone playing an aged Sukracarya forbid Bali from giving the three steps requested by Lord Vamana. Accepting the gift, the Lord placed His last step on Baliís head.

 

[निताइ dasa]

One day, Lord Nityananda enacted the pastime of building a bridge across the ocean with the boys playing the role of monkeys. They cut castor plants and made a bridge across the water. Then all the boys shouted "Jaya Raghunatha!" Lord Nityananda, taking the role of Lakshmana with a bow in His hand, went in anger to rebuke Sugriva. "O king of the monkeys, My Lord is in distress. Come quickly or I'll kill you! How can you sit here enjoying with women while Lord Ramacandra is lamenting on Malyavan Mountain?"

Another day Lord Nityananda spoke in anger to Parasurama, "O brahmana, I'm not at fault. Leave here at once." Lord Nityananda was thus absorbed in the mood of Lakshmana. The boys, unable to understand this, thought it was just a game. Another time the boys took the role of five monkeys and the Lord took the role of Lakshmana. "Who are you monkeys, wandering in the forest? I am the servant of Lord Ramacandra. Please tell me who you are!" They replied, "We are wandering in fear of Bali. Please take us to Lord Ramacandra. We wish to take the dust of His lotus feet." The Lord embraced them and led them to Lord Ramacandra, where they all fell at His feet.

Once the Lord enacted the pastime of killing Indrajit, the son of Ravana. Another day, in the mood of Lakshmana, He accepted defeat. They brought someone in the role of Vibhishana before Lord Ramacandra, and Lord Rama crowned him as the King of Lanka. One boy said, "I am the mighty Ravana. Now I'll release the sakti-shela weapon. Stop it if You can, Lakshmana!" Saying this, the boy threw a lotus flower at Lord Nityananda, who in the mood of Lakshmana, fell to the ground. After he fell unconscious, all the boys tried in vain to revive Him. When they found no symptom of life in the body of Lord Nityananda, they all held their heads and cried. The Lord's father and mother came running there and saw their son without a sign of life. They too fell senseless to the ground. Everyone who saw this tragedy was struck with wonder. As the boys described the entire incident, someone said, "I know why He is unconscious."

Once a great actor played the role of Dasaratha. Hearing that Rama had left for the forest, he left his body. Someone else said, "There's a boy dressed as Hanuman. If he gives Him medicine, then He'll be cured." Before the play the Lord had instructed His friends, "When I fall unconscious, you all surround Me and cry. After a while send Hanuman for some medicine. I will revive when he puts the medicine to My nose." The Lord fell unconscious by His own sweet will, but this bewildered all the boys. Since everyone there was so confused, they forgot the Lord's instructions. They simply cried loudly, "O brother, please get up!" Hearing people's comments, the boys remembered Lord Nityananda's order and the boy dressed as Hanuman immediately went for the medicine.

Another boy dressed as a renunciate welcomed Hanuman with fruits and roots. He said to Hanuman, "My dear sir, please stay and grace my asrama. It's a wonderful fortune to meet such a person as you." Hanuman replied, "I must go and complete my important mission. I'd like to stay but I cannot delay. You must have heard that Lakshmana, younger brother of Lord Ramacandra, is unconscious from the sakti-sela weapon of Ravana. I'm on my way to Gandhamadana Hill to bring medicine. Only then He'll survive."

The renunciate then said, "If you must go, first take a bath and have something to eat. Then you may go." The two boys repeated whatever Lord Nityananda had instructed them. Everyone gazed at them in astonishment as they listened to their dialogue. On the request of the renunciate, Hanuman went to take a bath in the lake where another boy in the lake grabbed hold of his feet. The boy playing a crocodile tried to pull Hanuman into the water, but Hanuman pulled the boy to the shore. After a short fight, Hanuman defeated the crocodile. On returning to the renunciateís asrama, Hanuman saw a mighty warrior. A boy dressed as a rakshasa tried to swallow Hanuman. He challenged, "You defeated the crocodile, but how will you defeat me? I will eat you. Then how will you revive Lakshmana?"

Hanuman replied, "Your Ravana's a dog! I think him most insignificant. Get out of my way." After first exchanging some harsh words, they began pulling each other's hair. Finally, they began striking each other with their fists. Swiftly defeating the demon, Hanuman went to the Gandhamadana Hill. There he fought with some boys dressed as Gandharvas. Defeating the Gandharvas, Hanuman took the Gandhamadana Hill on his head to Lanka. Another boy playing a doctor meditated on Lord Rama as he held the medicine to Lakshmanaís nose. At that very moment, Lord Nityananda came to His senses. His parents and others all smiled in relief. Hadai Pandita embraced his son and all the boys were overjoyed. Everyone asked, "Dear son, where have You learned all these plays?" Smiling the Lord said, "These are all My pastimes."

In his early childhood, the Lord was most attractive. No one wanted Him to leave his lap. Everyone had more affection for Lord Nityananda than for his own son. But none could recognize Him by the influence of Lord Vishnu's illusory energy.

In His childhood, Lord Nityananda had no other happiness than enjoying the pastimes of Lord Krishna. All His friends left their parents to constantly sport in the company of the Lord. I offer repeated obeisances at the feet of those boys who enjoyed the association of Lord Nityananda. From His childhood, Lord Nityananda had no interest other than enacting the various pastimes of Lord Krishna. Who can describe the pastimes of Lord Ananta? They are only manifest to one who has received His mercy.

Accepting Shri Gauranga and Shri Nityananda Prabhu as my life and soul, I, Vrindavana dasa, sing the glories of Their lotus feet."

Above is the tree under which Lord Nitai performed these pastimes.

 

[kalyan]

Nitai! Thank you for your question. In our Gaudiya Conception, we never worship Sri Narayan independently, but always alongside His associates and expansions. Yes Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu wrote this astakam, but in no way is He minimizing or maximizing the actual position of Lord Shiva. We Gaudiya's worship Shiva as a topmost Vaishnav, as according to the following Shloka from Srimad Bhagavatam:

nimna-gānāṁ yathā gaṅgā
 devānām acyuto yathā
vaiṣṇavānāṁ yathā śambhuḥ
 purāṇānām idam tathā

"Just as the Gaṅgā is the greatest of all rivers, Lord Acyuta the supreme among deities and Lord Śambhu [Śiva] the greatest of Vaiṣṇavas, so Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the greatest of all Purāṇas."

Thus in the astakam, Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is asking Shiva for only one thing, and that is pure bhakti to the lotus feet of Bhagavan Narayan. Yes, we agree, that one should not approach other devatas for material benefits, however In our opinion, other devatas can be glorified, but only to ask that our bhakti towards Sri Hari is strengthened. Do Sri Vaishnav's not also worship the Vaishnavs (the surrendered ones)? Similiarily, knowing Lord Shiva to be very dear to Achyuta, we pray to Him in this mood. That is the actual worship of Lord Shiva. Actually according to Bhagavatam, Shiva is not Jiva Tattva, He is a Guna Avatar of Narayan Himself, who descends in order to interact with prakriti and hence manifest this maya jagat.

Thanks..yes Maha Siva is 1 of greatest sri vaishnavas as pointed in bhAgavatham indeed, and i respect the difference of traditions....How can Siva be a guNa avatar when VishNu/KrushNa even takes him in times of pralaya...Multiples paramaatmas cannot exist and Siva lives in a place kailasam which is materialistic realm...only jIvas in karma bandhanam are prone to repeated cycles if pralaya...Siva is considered as jIva although his inner controller is nArAyaNa/Krushna....jiva being different from paramaatma...are you inferring paramaatma Krushna manifested directly without jIva in Siva? This is not accepted as sIva is not considered any avatar of vishnu as per scriptures....please explain from gaudiya view point...also None of the vaidika vaishnava acharyas has a mention of worshipping sIva. @निताइ dasa..also @Chakra have u heard of any accounts where sIva sloka is attributed to vaishnava acharya? I dont think so

 

[Chakra]

Thanks..yes Maha Siva is 1 of greatest sri vaishnavas as pointed in bhAgavatham indeed, and i respect the difference of traditions....How can Siva be a guNa avatar when VishNu/KrushNa even takes him in times of pralaya...Multiples paramaatmas cannot exist and Siva lives in a place kailasam which is materialistic realm...only jIvas in karma bandhanam are prone to repeated cycles if pralaya...Siva is considered as jIva although his inner controller is nArAyaNa/Krushna....jiva being different from paramaatma...are you inferring paramaatma Krushna manifested directly without jIva in Siva? This is not accepted as sIva is not considered any avatar of vishnu as per scriptures....please explain from gaudiya view point...also None of the vaidika vaishnava acharyas has a mention of worshipping sIva. @निताइ dasa..also @Chakra have u heard of any accounts where sIva sloka is attributed to vaishnava acharya? I dont think so

Shiva can be considered a Guna Avatar in the sense that Sankarshana (vyuha of Vishnu) is his antaryami (in fact, that is what is meant by "guna avatar"- Brahma-Pradyumna, Vishnu-Aniruddha, Shiva-Sankarshana AFAIK).

The Gaudiyas do the same thing as the Madhvas: worship devas to increase hari-bhakti. From a Vishistadvaitic standpoint (correct me if I'm wrong), it's not wrong per se to worship Shiva as the body of Narayana, but discouraged nonetheless. The reason is (I'm sure you know but I'm just stating for the benefit of others) that Shiva is not considered a Sharanagata by Shri Vaishnava, but a Upasaka (Bhakti-yogi). Shri Vaishnavas are recommended to worship only Sharanagatas.

As far as praises to Shiva go, I don't think any Advaitic or Tattva-vada acharya has written any, and certainly not any Shri Vaishnava acharya. The only reason why Gaudiya acharyas wrote/sang stotras about Shiva is probably because they had a special category for Shiva; not a jiva, not Paramatma, but "Shiva-Tattva". But I think it's quite clear that no Vaishnava acharya bothered too much about praising other devas.

 

[kalyan]

Shiva can be considered a Guna Avatar in the sense that Sankarshana (vyuha of Vishnu) is his antaryami (in fact, that is what is meant by "guna avatar"- Brahma-Pradyumna, Vishnu-Aniruddha, Shiva-Sankarshana AFAIK).

The Gaudiyas do the same thing as the Madhvas: worship devas to increase hari-bhakti. From a Vishistadvaitic standpoint (correct me if I'm wrong), it's not wrong per se to worship Shiva as the body of Narayana, but discouraged nonetheless. The reason is (I'm sure you know but I'm just stating for the benefit of others) that Shiva is not considered a Sharanagata by Shri Vaishnava, but a Upasaka (Bhakti-yogi). Shri Vaishnavas are recommended to worship only Sharanagatas.

As far as praises to Shiva go, I don't think any Advaitic or Tattva-vada acharya has written any, and certainly not any Shri Vaishnava acharya. The only reason why Gaudiya acharyas wrote/sang stotras about Shiva is probably because they had a special category for Shiva; not a jiva, not Paramatma, but "Shiva-Tattva". But I think it's quite clear that no Vaishnava acharya bothered too much about praising other devas.

Yea thats what I thought...but when we say avatar its direct manifestation without any jIva...thats where thr confusion creeps in..as you correctly inferred vishnu in form of sankarshaNa acting as inner controller of rudra, both being different...thanks

 

[Chakra]

The guna avatar concept is confusing for everyone, because people just think that since Vishnu, Shiva, and Brahma are all mentioned as Guna avatars, they are all equal. One must go behind the avatar and into the antaryami to realize that creation, maintenance, and destruction are performed by Narayana alone.

 

[Chakra]

Question for Nitai Das-ji and Ratiben,

Why is Shiva so special that he is in his own category ie Shiva-Tattva. Why not Brahma, Durga etc, all of whom are equal if not greater than Shiva?

Also, what is the Gaudiya stance on "nitya-suris", a Shri Vaishnava concept grouping Vaishnavas like Chakra, Shankha, Garuda, Adi Sesha, etc together.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Shiva can be considered a Guna Avatar in the sense that Sankarshana (vyuha of Vishnu) is his antaryami (in fact, that is what is meant by "guna avatar"- Brahma-Pradyumna, Vishnu-Aniruddha, Shiva-Sankarshana AFAIK).

The Gaudiyas do the same thing as the Madhvas: worship devas to increase hari-bhakti. From a Vishistadvaitic standpoint (correct me if I'm wrong), it's not wrong per se to worship Shiva as the body of Narayana, but discouraged nonetheless. The reason is (I'm sure you know but I'm just stating for the benefit of others) that Shiva is not considered a Sharanagata by Shri Vaishnava, but a Upasaka (Bhakti-yogi). Shri Vaishnavas are recommended to worship only Sharanagatas.

As far as praises to Shiva go, I don't think any Advaitic or Tattva-vada acharya has written any, and certainly not any Shri Vaishnava acharya. The only reason why Gaudiya acharyas wrote/sang stotras about Shiva is probably because they had a special category for Shiva; not a jiva, not Paramatma, but "Shiva-Tattva". But I think it's quite clear that no Vaishnava acharya bothered too much about praising other devas.

Yes you are partly right. No other deva is given as higher position as Shivji in our Sampradaya because he is not exactly jiva tattva, like Brahma and Ganesh etc. I'm actually not so knowledgeable about Shiva tattva itself, so I will reply once I have referred to the book regarding this that was written by Srila BV Narayan Maharaj.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Question for Nitai Das-ji and Ratiben,

Why is Shiva so special that he is in his own category ie Shiva-Tattva. Why not Brahma, Durga etc, all of whom are equal if not greater than Shiva?

Also, what is the Gaudiya stance on "nitya-suris", a Shri Vaishnava concept grouping Vaishnavas like Chakra, Shankha, Garuda, Adi Sesha, etc together.

Directly quoting from Shiva Tattva, by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaj:

The Principle of Siva The principle of Shiva – Shiva-tattva – is extremely complex. The principle of Brahmä is not as complicated, because Lord Brahmä is always a jova, a finite spirit soul. Sometimes, when there is no qualified jiva, Lord Visnu personally takes the post of Brahmä, but that is rare. Lord Siva is not like that; he is not a finite soul. After passing through the eight material coverings, and after crossing the Virajä (the river that divides the material world and the spiritual world) and the planet of Lord Brahmä (the highest material planet), one comes to the planet of Siva. There he is known as SadäSiva, a manifestation of Lord Viñëu. Siva-tattva can be understood by the analogy of yogurt and milk. Yogurt is nothing but a transformation of milk. Milk can become yogurt, but yogurt cannot become milk. This analogy is found in Brahma-saàhitä and elucidated in Srila Jéva Gosvämi’s commentary: “Just as milk is transformed into yogurt by contact with a transforming agent, Sri Govinda, Lord Sri Krsna, similarly accepts the form of Shambhu in order to accomplish a specific purpose. The example of yogurt is actually given in order to convey the idea of cause and effect, not the idea of transformation. Sri Krsña is reality and cannot be transformed, so it is not possible for Him to undergo any kind of distortion. A wish-fulfilling gem manifests many things according to one’s desire, yet its constitutional nature remains un-transformed.”.

"We can reconcile this by considering the two perspectives from which to understand the identity of Lord Siva: We can see Siva from the point of view of his post, and also from the point of view of his personality. As a personality, separate from his post, he appears as an associate of the Supreme Lord, such as Gopisvara, Hanumän and Bhima. As Gopéçvara he resides eternally in Vrndävana. As Hanumän he always associates with and serves Lord Räma. As Bhima he always serves Lord Krsna. And, when Hanumän and Bhima combine together in this present age of Kali-yuga, they become Madhväcärya, our Sampradäya-guru. From the point of view of Lord Siva’s function as the god of annihilation, and also that of Brahmä as the secondary creator of the universe, Siva and Brahmä are actually posts. Lord Brahmä and Lord Siva are not ordinary human beings, but their posts are like that of the president or prime minister of a nation, wherein the man representing the post has to perform a certain defined job. Both as the post and the person, Siva is superior to Brahmä. Lord Siva is an expansion of Lord Viñëu, but sometimes a jiva (living entity) may become Siva’s expansion known as Rudra. If a man purely performs the duties of varëäçrama for one hundred births, he may become Brahmä. In other words, he may attain the position or post of Brahmä. In turn, when a person in the post of Brahmä carries out his function expertly for one hundred births, he becomes qualified to perform the function of Siva in his manifestation as Rudra. Siva’s post is therefore superior to that of Brahmä, and this is also evidence that Shiva is superior to Brahma"

Another reason why we Gaudiyas hold Lord Shiva in such high regard, because unlike Brahma, Ganesh, Saraswati etc, Lord Shiva is eternally serving in the nitya lila, as Gopisvara Mahadeva, who can give us gopi-prema by His mercy. Srila Raghunatha das Goswami writes in this regard:

mudä gopendrasyatmaja bhuja parisranga nédhaye
sphurad gopirvrndair yam iha bhägavatam pranayibhih
bhajadbhistair bhaktyäs vamabhilasitam präptam aciräd
yamitire gopéçvaram anudinam taà kila bhaje

" I daily worship Gopisvara Mahädeva, who is situated on the bank of Yamunä. That very Gopisvara was worshipped with deep devotion by the gopis, and he quickly fulfilled their desire to attain a supremely precious jewel in the form of the embrace of the son of Nanda Mahäräja [Krsna]."

Lord Shiva is also present in all our holy dhamas (or Ekachakra as Vrddha Siva, in Radha Kund as Kundeswar Mahadeva etc) and so it is only by his mercy that the true nature of the Dhama becomes manifest before our eyes, when he orders Maya devi to remove the material covering over it.

As for "Nitya Suris" yes, we gaudiyas identify them as Nitya Siddhas, those personalities who are eternally liberated and descend into the material world to assist Lord Krsna in His pastimes. The book link which I have linked above is actually explains Shiva Tattva very nicely, I have just conveyed some of that info here. Nitai!!

 

[kalyan]

Directly quoting from Shiva Tattva, by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaj:

The Principle of Siva The principle of Shiva – Shiva-tattva – is extremely complex. The principle of Brahmä is not as complicated, because Lord Brahmä is always a jova, a finite spirit soul. Sometimes, when there is no qualified jiva, Lord Visnu personally takes the post of Brahmä, but that is rare. Lord Siva is not like that; he is not a finite soul. After passing through the eight material coverings, and after crossing the Virajä (the river that divides the material world and the spiritual world) and the planet of Lord Brahmä (the highest material planet), one comes to the planet of Siva. There he is known as SadäSiva, a manifestation of Lord Viñëu. Siva-tattva can be understood by the analogy of yogurt and milk. Yogurt is nothing but a transformation of milk. Milk can become yogurt, but yogurt cannot become milk. This analogy is found in Brahma-saàhitä and elucidated in Srila Jéva Gosvämi’s commentary: “Just as milk is transformed into yogurt by contact with a transforming agent, Sri Govinda, Lord Sri Krsna, similarly accepts the form of Shambhu in order to accomplish a specific purpose. The example of yogurt is actually given in order to convey the idea of cause and effect, not the idea of transformation. Sri Krsña is reality and cannot be transformed, so it is not possible for Him to undergo any kind of distortion. A wish-fulfilling gem manifests many things according to one’s desire, yet its constitutional nature remains un-transformed.”.

"We can reconcile this by considering the two perspectives from which to understand the identity of Lord Siva: We can see Siva from the point of view of his post, and also from the point of view of his personality. As a personality, separate from his post, he appears as an associate of the Supreme Lord, such as Gopisvara, Hanumän and Bhima. As Gopéçvara he resides eternally in Vrndävana. As Hanumän he always associates with and serves Lord Räma. As Bhima he always serves Lord Krsna. And, when Hanumän and Bhima combine together in this present age of Kali-yuga, they become Madhväcärya, our Sampradäya-guru. From the point of view of Lord Siva’s function as the god of annihilation, and also that of Brahmä as the secondary creator of the universe, Siva and Brahmä are actually posts. Lord Brahmä and Lord Siva are not ordinary human beings, but their posts are like that of the president or prime minister of a nation, wherein the man representing the post has to perform a certain defined job. Both as the post and the person, Siva is superior to Brahmä. Lord Siva is an expansion of Lord Viñëu, but sometimes a jiva (living entity) may become Siva’s expansion known as Rudra. If a man purely performs the duties of varëäçrama for one hundred births, he may become Brahmä. In other words, he may attain the position or post of Brahmä. In turn, when a person in the post of Brahmä carries out his function expertly for one hundred births, he becomes qualified to perform the function of Siva in his manifestation as Rudra. Siva’s post is therefore superior to that of Brahmä, and this is also evidence that Shiva is superior to Brahma"

Another reason why we Gaudiyas hold Lord Shiva in such high regard, because unlike Brahma, Ganesh, Saraswati etc, Lord Shiva is eternally serving in the nitya lila, as Gopisvara Mahadeva, who can give us gopi-prema by His mercy. Srila Raghunatha das Goswami writes in this regard:

mudä gopendrasyatmaja bhuja parisranga nédhaye
sphurad gopirvrndair yam iha bhägavatam pranayibhih
bhajadbhistair bhaktyäs vamabhilasitam präptam aciräd
yamitire gopéçvaram anudinam taà kila bhaje

" I daily worship Gopisvara Mahädeva, who is situated on the bank of Yamunä. That very Gopisvara was worshipped with deep devotion by the gopis, and he quickly fulfilled their desire to attain a supremely precious jewel in the form of the embrace of the son of Nanda Mahäräja [Krsna]."

Lord Shiva is also present in all our holy dhamas (or Ekachakra as Vrddha Siva, in Radha Kund as Kundeswar Mahadeva etc) and so it is only by his mercy that the true nature of the Dhama becomes manifest before our eyes, when he orders Maya devi to remove the material covering over it.

As for "Nitya Suris" yes, we gaudiyas identify them as Nitya Siddhas, those personalities who are eternally liberated and descend into the material world to assist Lord Krsna in His pastimes. The book link which I have linked above is actually explains Shiva Tattva very nicely, I have just conveyed some of that info here. Nitai!!

the one that exists beyond viraja is 'Nithya Vibhuti' or 'Paramapadam; or 'Sri Vaikuntam'....are you saying siva resides in vaikuntam or in a separate place ? Its not logical at all and from which authority the author claimed this information ? Kailasam is below Brahma Loka....your this post has many contradictions, on one hand you say siva and Brahma are just but a post which is actually true and if you observe why it is a post, it is because of karma bandhanam or karmic bondage and who carries karmic bondage to be rotating in this repeated cycles? only the badda jIvas.....I have utmost respect for Maha Siva but the supreme authority vedam cannot be twisted or injected with information as we like....Krushna's manifestation is siva is absurd to say the least....Only muktas and nithyas have access to Vaikuntam beyond viraja and it is Sri Maha VishNus place

HARE Krushna

 

[निताइ dasa]

the one that exists beyond viraja is 'Nithya Vibhuti' or 'Paramapadam; or 'Sri Vaikuntam'....are you saying siva resides in vaikuntam or in a separate place ? Its not logical at all and from which authority the author claimed this information ? Kailasam is below Brahma Loka....your this post has many contradictions, on one hand you say siva and Brahma are just but a post which is actually true and if you observe why it is a post, it is because of karma bandhanam or karmic bondage and who carries karmic bondage to be rotating in this repeated cycles? only the badda jIvas.....I have utmost respect for Maha Siva but the supreme authority vedam cannot be twisted or injected with information as we like....Krushna's manifestation is siva is absurd to say the least....Only muktas and nithyas have access to Vaikuntam beyond viraja and it is Sri Maha VishNus place

HARE Krushna

Haribol. I understand your concerns. According to Bhagavatam, there are multiple levels within Vaikuntha itself, (i.e Goloka Planets, Ayodhya etc) where Lord Narayan exists in His eternal form. However there exists a region in between the material and spiritual world where Sadasiva resides (Kailash). This place is not situated in Maya or Vaikuntha but within the Brahmajyoti. This place is also called Mahesh Dhama. The source of this information is from Srimad Bhagavatam, Brahma Samhita and also the commentaries of Srila Jiva Goswami. In our opinion, Shiva is a manifestation of Krsna in order to interact with maya and hence manifest the material creation. The verse in question is from Brahma-Samhita 5.8:

"niyatiḥ sā ramā devi
tat-priyā tad-vaśaḿ tadā
tal-lińgaḿ bhagavān śambhur
jyoti-rūpaḥ sanātanaḥ
yā yoniḥ sāparā śaktiḥ
kāmo bījaḿ mahad dhareḥ"

"Ramādevī, the spiritual [cit] potency, beloved consort of the Supreme Lord, is the regulatrix of all entities. The divine plenary portion of Kṛṣṇa creates the mundane world. At creation there appears a divine halo of the nature of His own subjective portion [svāḿśa]. This halo is divine Śambhu, the masculine symbol or manifested emblem of the Supreme Lord. This halo is the dim twilight reflection of the supreme eternal effulgence. This masculine symbol is the subjective portion of divinity who functions as progenitor of the mundane world, subject to the supreme regulatrix [niyati]. The conceiving potency in regard to mundane creation makes her appearance out of the supreme regulatrix. She is Māyā, the limited, nonabsolute [aparā] potency, the symbol of mundane feminine productivity. The intercourse of these two brings forth the faculty of perverted cognition, the reflection of the seed of the procreative desire of the Supreme Lord."

This is further elborated in 5.45:

kṣīraḿ yathā dadhi vikāra-viśeṣa-yogāt
sañjāyate na hi tataḥ pṛthag asti hetoḥ
yaḥ śambhutām api tathā samupaiti kāryād
govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi

"Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Śambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction."

This is in-fact another demonstration of the Acintya Bheda-Abheda philosophy. Shiva is both one yet different from Sri Hari. According to us, he cannot be Jiva tattva (only very rarely).

As for the post I am afraid you did not understand my meaning. Yes Brahma is a post (in fact the Brahma of our universe, Chatur-Mukha, is jiva tattva). However the Shambhu (Maha Siva) is not Jiva Tattva, it is Lord Hari Himself descending into Tamo-Guna to perform the necessary tasks for creation.Lord Hari is independent, and thus does this out of His own sweet will, not due to Karma. Again the booklet which I have linked explains all this far better than I can. When this is viewed from a Gaudiya Siddhanta, then no contradictions arise. Other Sampradayas may disagree with us however, as they do not accept the authority of Brahma Samhita, but we Gaudiyas regard it as authentic because it was discovered by Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu HImself and then later quoted by our Acharayas in their commentaries. Such personalities, in our opinion, would not lie or fabricate verses. We are not twisting the Veda, but simply trying to follow the teachings our acharayas, Just as you have surrendered unto the explanations of Sri Ramanuja and his Vishishtadvaita, similarly we surrender unto the explanations of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and his acinty-bhedabheda. Nitai!

edit: perhaps my explanations were too confusing (I apologise), the image linked may put it more clearly.

http://www.japaretreats.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Krishna-loka-large.jpg

 

[Aupmanyav]

Chennakesava temple, Belur. Commissioned by Hoysala King Vishnuvardhana in 1117 AD and was a follower of Sri Ramanujacharya. Originally he was a follower of Jainism and was known as Bitti Deva (Wikipedia).

Ma'am (Angrily): "Who did this?"
earthian: (Furtively): "I never went that side, Ma'am. I did not do this."
Ma'am: (Accusingly): "How do i know that you did not do this? You always do some mischief."
earthian: (Relievedly): "See Ma'am, It is way beyond my size. Told you I did not do it."
Ma'am: (Browbeatingly): "Then who did it?"
earthian: (Coweringly): "I did not do it, but i saw Vishnu doing something here."
Original at http://www.indiamike.com/india/indi...-road-trip-trip-report-t241830/5/#post1933081. I am sure our Vaishnava members will enjoy it.

 

[kalyan]

Haribol. I understand your concerns. According to Bhagavatam, there are multiple levels within Vaikuntha itself, (i.e Goloka Planets, Ayodhya etc) where Lord Narayan exists in His eternal form. However there exists a region in between the material and spiritual world where Sadasiva resides (Kailash). This place is not situated in Maya or Vaikuntha but within the Brahmajyoti. This place is also called Mahesh Dhama. The source of this information is from Srimad Bhagavatam, Brahma Samhita and also the commentaries of Srila Jiva Goswami. In our opinion, Shiva is a manifestation of Krsna in order to interact with maya and hence manifest the material creation. The verse in question is from Brahma-Samhita 5.8:

"niyatiḥ sā ramā devi
tat-priyā tad-vaśaḿ tadā
tal-lińgaḿ bhagavān śambhur
jyoti-rūpaḥ sanātanaḥ
yā yoniḥ sāparā śaktiḥ
kāmo bījaḿ mahad dhareḥ"

"Ramādevī, the spiritual [cit] potency, beloved consort of the Supreme Lord, is the regulatrix of all entities. The divine plenary portion of Kṛṣṇa creates the mundane world. At creation there appears a divine halo of the nature of His own subjective portion [svāḿśa]. This halo is divine Śambhu, the masculine symbol or manifested emblem of the Supreme Lord. This halo is the dim twilight reflection of the supreme eternal effulgence. This masculine symbol is the subjective portion of divinity who functions as progenitor of the mundane world, subject to the supreme regulatrix [niyati]. The conceiving potency in regard to mundane creation makes her appearance out of the supreme regulatrix. She is Māyā, the limited, nonabsolute [aparā] potency, the symbol of mundane feminine productivity. The intercourse of these two brings forth the faculty of perverted cognition, the reflection of the seed of the procreative desire of the Supreme Lord."

This is further elborated in 5.45:

kṣīraḿ yathā dadhi vikāra-viśeṣa-yogāt
sañjāyate na hi tataḥ pṛthag asti hetoḥ
yaḥ śambhutām api tathā samupaiti kāryād
govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi

"Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Śambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction."

This is in-fact another demonstration of the Acintya Bheda-Abheda philosophy. Shiva is both one yet different from Sri Hari. According to us, he cannot be Jiva tattva (only very rarely).

As for the post I am afraid you did not understand my meaning. Yes Brahma is a post (in fact the Brahma of our universe, Chatur-Mukha, is jiva tattva). However the Shambhu (Maha Siva) is not Jiva Tattva, it is Lord Hari Himself descending into Tamo-Guna to perform the necessary tasks for creation.Lord Hari is independent, and thus does this out of His own sweet will, not due to Karma. Again the booklet which I have linked explains all this far better than I can. When this is viewed from a Gaudiya Siddhanta, then no contradictions arise. Other Sampradayas may disagree with us however, as they do not accept the authority of Brahma Samhita, but we Gaudiyas regard it as authentic because it was discovered by Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu HImself and then later quoted by our Acharayas in their commentaries. Such personalities, in our opinion, would not lie or fabricate verses. We are not twisting the Veda, but simply trying to follow the teachings our acharayas, Just as you have surrendered unto the explanations of Sri Ramanuja and his Vishishtadvaita, similarly we surrender unto the explanations of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and his acinty-bhedabheda. Nitai!

edit: perhaps my explanations were too confusing (I apologise), the image linked may put it more clearly.

http://www.japaretreats.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Krishna-loka-large.jpg

Sorry ur explanation is rejected by vedas....there is no place between leela and nithya vibhuti except viraja....sambhu means the bestower of shubhas not just siva..this is not rAmanujacharya position. ..this is vedic position.....kailasa is below brahma loka and is in leela vibhuti....you should observe 1 point as why your pointed info fails to stand....u said siva is a post, so whay happens when term is over? someother person occupies the post and the current person falls down, person in the sense jIva, so jiva is indeed falling down and getting up which happens in leela vibhuti not beyond viraja or nithya vibhuti....so siva as a jiva is bound by karmA...Its straight as that...

Due to everyone injecting their own interpretations, Adi shankaracharya established certain rules and certain authentic parts which rAmAnujacharya followed and wriiten valuable commentaries on and which later Madhvacharya contributed...These 3 acharyas are called acharya trayam and the most authorutative acharyas but why? Because they painted exact view of vedam. Brahma samhita i dont think should be put out as a valid authority. ....Bhagawatam yes...

 

[निताइ dasa]

Sorry ur explanation is rejected by vedas....there is no place between leela and nithya vibhuti except viraja....sambhu means the bestower of shubhas not just siva..this is not rAmanujacharya position. ..this is vedic position.....kailasa is below brahma loka and is in leela vibhuti....you should observe 1 point as why your pointed info fails to stand....u said siva is a post, so whay happens when term is over? someother person occupies the post and the current person falls down, person in the sense jIva, so jiva is indeed falling down and getting up which happens in leela vibhuti not beyond viraja or nithya vibhuti....so siva as a jiva is bound by karmA...Its straight as that...

Due to everyone injecting their own interpretations, Adi shankaracharya established certain rules and certain authentic parts which rAmAnujacharya followed and wriiten valuable commentaries on and which later Madhvacharya contributed...These 3 acharyas are called acharya trayam and the most authorutative acharyas but why? Because they painted exact view of vedam. Brahma samhita i dont think should be put out as a valid authority. ....Bhagawatam yes...

I am sorry prabhuji, I have always been respectful to you in this debate, but I am hurt by the generalizations you are making here. I have given evidence to support my claims, while you have not, nor refuted it with any scriptural injuction. Furthermore, the vani of my acharayas are like scripture to me. We Gaudiyas do not accept the Prasthana Trayi concept which was established by Adi Sankaracharya (i.e proof based upon the upanisads, vedanta sutra, and Gita) because to us Srimad Bhagavatam is the perfect pramana. This can be proven by Sruti and Smrti itself, while Sankaracharya's claim cannot be found anywhere. Furthermore, by denying the authencity of Brahma Samhita, you are accusing Lord Chaitanya of lying, which is not something I am willing to consider. Yes I understand that what you view you think is the vedic position, and the same stands for us. All the Sampradayas are interpretations and commentaries of the Vedanta (even Sri Ramanujacharaya's) and there are degrees of purity and truth in all of them.This thread is so that we can discuss these issues from Gaudiya perceptive, not to attack our explanation as something "rejected by Vedas". As the picture I have shown, there are two abodes of Shiva, one below Brahma Loka and one above Brahma Loka (in the paravyoma) . As for the post of Siva, I don't see a contradiction. Lord Hari performs His pastimes on earth for a set number of years yet we don't call Him bound by karma or a jiva, he does it out of His own sweet will.

As for Sri Siva, we Gaudiyas make a distinction between Sadasiva (the amsa of Hari) and Shiva Shankara (Rudra) as they have different abodes.. The abode of Sada-Siva is the expansion of Sandhini-Sakti, which is an aspect or Para-sakti and not Maya-Sakti. Therefore, this abode is eternal and located at the other border of para-vyoma or adhyatmik-akash. You can understand this clearly when you see the map of cosmos which I have presented.

The abode of Rudra-Siva or Sambhu is the manifestation of Maya-Sakti, which is the perverted reflection of yogamaya-potency (that is why it is also known as Chhaya-sakti). Although Sambhu may or may not be a Jiva-tattva (ignoring the exceptional cases), but his abode is not eternal, and neither is his position, just like Brahma. The Jivas who attain this abode have to come back to this mortal-realm once there span is over, just like in case of brahma-loka. Our understanding is that even considering the cases when Sambhu is not Jiva-tattva, even then the sadhakas of his, do not attain the permanent position.

I feel as if you may be talking about the latter (Rudra-Siva), while I am talking about the former (Sadasiva), who is the original form. Therefore this may just be a big misunderstanding...hahaha . Anyway these disagreements are quite minor, only due to slight difference in our Sampradayas. It was nice to understand how the Sri Vaishnav's view this, so thank you for your input. Nitaai bol!

 

[Chakra]

Haribol. I understand your concerns. According to Bhagavatam, there are multiple levels within Vaikuntha itself, (i.e Goloka Planets, Ayodhya etc) where Lord Narayan exists in His eternal form. However there exists a region in between the material and spiritual world where Sadasiva resides (Kailash). This place is not situated in Maya or Vaikuntha but within the Brahmajyoti. This place is also called Mahesh Dhama. The source of this information is from Srimad Bhagavatam, Brahma Samhita and also the commentaries of Srila Jiva Goswami. In our opinion, Shiva is a manifestation of Krsna in order to interact with maya and hence manifest the material creation. The verse in question is from Brahma-Samhita 5.8:

"niyatiḥ sā ramā devi
tat-priyā tad-vaśaḿ tadā
tal-lińgaḿ bhagavān śambhur
jyoti-rūpaḥ sanātanaḥ
yā yoniḥ sāparā śaktiḥ
kāmo bījaḿ mahad dhareḥ"

"Ramādevī, the spiritual [cit] potency, beloved consort of the Supreme Lord, is the regulatrix of all entities. The divine plenary portion of Kṛṣṇa creates the mundane world. At creation there appears a divine halo of the nature of His own subjective portion [svāḿśa]. This halo is divine Śambhu, the masculine symbol or manifested emblem of the Supreme Lord. This halo is the dim twilight reflection of the supreme eternal effulgence. This masculine symbol is the subjective portion of divinity who functions as progenitor of the mundane world, subject to the supreme regulatrix [niyati]. The conceiving potency in regard to mundane creation makes her appearance out of the supreme regulatrix. She is Māyā, the limited, nonabsolute [aparā] potency, the symbol of mundane feminine productivity. The intercourse of these two brings forth the faculty of perverted cognition, the reflection of the seed of the procreative desire of the Supreme Lord."

This is further elborated in 5.45:

kṣīraḿ yathā dadhi vikāra-viśeṣa-yogāt
sañjāyate na hi tataḥ pṛthag asti hetoḥ
yaḥ śambhutām api tathā samupaiti kāryād
govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi

"Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Śambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction."

This is in-fact another demonstration of the Acintya Bheda-Abheda philosophy. Shiva is both one yet different from Sri Hari. According to us, he cannot be Jiva tattva (only very rarely).

As for the post I am afraid you did not understand my meaning. Yes Brahma is a post (in fact the Brahma of our universe, Chatur-Mukha, is jiva tattva). However the Shambhu (Maha Siva) is not Jiva Tattva, it is Lord Hari Himself descending into Tamo-Guna to perform the necessary tasks for creation.Lord Hari is independent, and thus does this out of His own sweet will, not due to Karma. Again the booklet which I have linked explains all this far better than I can. When this is viewed from a Gaudiya Siddhanta, then no contradictions arise. Other Sampradayas may disagree with us however, as they do not accept the authority of Brahma Samhita, but we Gaudiyas regard it as authentic because it was discovered by Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu HImself and then later quoted by our Acharayas in their commentaries. Such personalities, in our opinion, would not lie or fabricate verses. We are not twisting the Veda, but simply trying to follow the teachings our acharayas, Just as you have surrendered unto the explanations of Sri Ramanuja and his Vishishtadvaita, similarly we surrender unto the explanations of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and his acinty-bhedabheda. Nitai!

edit: perhaps my explanations were too confusing (I apologise), the image linked may put it more clearly.

http://www.japaretreats.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Krishna-loka-large.jpg

Excellent responses. So, the Shiva who drank the poison was not Rudra-Shiva, but Sada-Shiva?

 

[निताइ dasa]

Excellent responses. So, the Shiva who drank the poison was not Rudra-Shiva, but Sada-Shiva?

Nitai! I don't know, I am not sure about this, it was very long time ago that I heard the pastimes of Lord Shiva. From my understanding the pastimes described in scripture were performed by Rudra (in the human-like form). However, even Rudra-shiva is not jiva tattva (at least in our current universe) according to us. He (Rudra) is an expansion of Sadasiva, and thus to some degree is very similar to Him.

 

[kalyan]

<delete line>

the sampradaya is accepting some stuff from vedas but rejecting other stuff and inserting as they like which is the problem.

Edit: I respect all sampradayas but a vaishnava sampradaya in which slokas are attributed to Siva is illogical to say the least and the last verse is much worse, this one below :

shri-rama govinda mukunda saure, shri-krsna narayana vasudeva
ity adi-namamta-pana-matta-bhngadhipayakhila-duhkha-hantre 18

"`O Shri Rama! O Govinda! O Mukunda! O Sauri! O Shri Krishna! O Narayana! O Vasudeva!' I offer my obeisances unto you, Shri Siva, who are the monarch ruling over all the bee-like devotees who are mad to drink the nectar of these and other innumerable names of Hari, and who thus destroys all grief."

I understand completely that is a gaudiya thread but questions are always asked if you or i need to spiritually progress and it will make you explore more about the corresponding sampradaya. dont take offense ......

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram prabhu ji's

may I please draw your attention to these most delightfull verses , .....where upon the Viakuntha planets are compaired to a Lotus with Goloka Vrindarban as its central whorl , ......text 7

my appolpgies for the length but it is better read in comtext , ....



Sri Chaitanya Caritamrita , ...Madhya lila

Text* 1: Offering my obeisances unto Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, let me describe a particle of His opulence and sweetness. He is most valuable for a fallen conditioned soul bereft of spiritual knowledge, and He is the only shelter for those who do not know the real goal of life.

Text* 2: All glories to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu! All glories to Nityananda Prabhu! All glories to Advaita Acarya! And all glories to all the devotees of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu!

Text* 3: Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu continued, "All the transcendental forms of the Lord are situated in the spiritual sky. They preside over spiritual planets in that abode, but there is no counting those Vaikuntha planets.

Text* 4: "The breadth of each Vaikuntha planet is described as eight miles multiplied by one hundred, by one thousand, by ten thousand, by one hundred thousand and by ten million. In other words, each Vaikuntha planet is expanded beyond our ability to measure.

Text* 5: "Each Vaikuntha planet is very large, and each is made of spiritual bliss. The inhabitants are all associates of the Supreme Lord, and they have full opulence like the Lord Himself. This is how the Vaikuntha planets are all situated.

Text* 6: "Since all the Vaikuntha planets are located in a certain corner of the spiritual sky, who can measure the spiritual sky?

Text* 7: "The shape of the spiritual sky is compared to a lotus flower. The topmost region of that flower is called the whorl, and within that whorl is Krishna's abode. The petals of the spiritual lotus flower consist of many Vaikuntha planets.

Text* 8: "Each Vaikuntha planet is full of spiritual bliss, complete opulence and space, and each is inhabited by incarnations. If Lord Brahma and Lord Siva cannot estimate the length and breadth of the spiritual sky and the Vaikuntha planets, how can ordinary living entities begin to imagine them?

Text 9: "'O supreme great one! O Supreme Personality of Godhead! O Supersoul, master of all mystic power! Your pastimes are taking place continuously in these worlds, but who can estimate where, how and when You are employing Your spiritual energy and performing Your pastimes? No one can understand the mystery of these activities.'

Text* 10: "The spiritual qualities of Krishna are also unlimited. Great personalities like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva and the four Kumaras cannot estimate the spiritual qualities of the Lord.

Text 11: "'In time, great scientists may be able to count all the atoms of the universe, all the stars and planets in the sky, and all the particles of snow, but who among them can count the unlimited transcendental qualities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead? He descends on the surface of the globe for the benefit of all living entities.'

Text* 12: "To say nothing of Lord Brahma, even Lord Ananta, who has thousands of heads, cannot reach the end of the Lord's transcendental qualities, even though He is continuously chanting their praises.

Text 13: "'If I, Lord Brahma, and your elder brothers, the great saints and sages, cannot understand the limits of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is full of various energies, who else can understand them? Although constantly chanting about His transcendental qualities, the thousand-hooded Lord Sesha has not yet reached the end of the Lord's activities.'

Text* 14: "To say nothing of Anantadeva, even Lord Krishna Himself cannot find an end to His own transcendental qualities. Indeed, He Himself is always eager to know them.

Text 15: "'My Lord, You are unlimited. Even the predominating deities of the higher planetary systems, including Lord Brahma, cannot find Your limitations. Nor can You Yourself ascertain the limit of Your qualities. Like atoms in the sky, there are multi-universes with seven coverings, and these are rotating in due course of time. All the experts in Vedic understanding are searching for You by eliminating the material elements. In this way, searching and searching, they come to the conclusion that everything is complete in You. Thus You are the resort of everything. This is the conclusion of all Vedic experts.'

Text* 16: "Apart from all argument, logic and negative or positive processes, when Lord Sri Krishna was present as the Supreme Personality of Godhead at Vrindavana, no one could find a limit to His potencies by studying His characteristics and activities.

Text* 17: "At Vrindavana, the Lord immediately created all material and spiritual planets in one moment. Indeed, all of them were created with their predominating deities.

.....please if interested read the remainder , ...http://gitabase.com/eng/CC/2/21

 

[Terese]

Chennakesava temple, Belur

Ma'am (Angrily): "Who did this?"
earthian: (Furtively): "I never went that side, Ma'am. I did not do this."
Ma'am: (Accusingly): "How do i know that you did not do this? You always do some mischief."
earthian: (Relievedly): "See Ma'am, It is way beyond my size. Told you I did not do it."
Ma'am: (Browbeatingly): "Then who did it?"
earthian: (Coweringly): "I did not do it, but i saw Vishnu doing something here."
Original at http://www.indiamike.com/india/indi...-road-trip-trip-report-t241830/5/#post1933081. I am sure our Vaishnava members will enjoy it.

Aup what is that?

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Chakra ji

Question for Nitai Das-ji and Ratiben,

Why is Shiva so special that he is in his own category ie Shiva-Tattva. Why not Brahma, Durga etc, all of whom are equal if not greater than Shiva?

Brahma , Visnu and Siva are in some respects nondifferent to the supreme in that they are expansions , Brahma ji however has fulfilled his duty thus we tend to overlook him Shiva ji from the vaisnava perspective still pays a vital role , ..as the lords greatest devotee , ....may I paste a story commonly told amongst Gaudiyas , ....by Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja , ...

Once, the great sage Narada Muni traveled to the abode of Lord Siva and began to glorify him, saying, "You are very near and dear to the Supreme Lord Krsna. Not only that, you are Krsna's manifestation; you are non-different from Him. You can give liberation and also Krsna-prema, the rare jewel of transcendental love for Krsna."


Hearing Narada glorify him in numerous ways, Lord Siva became angry and said, "Your glorification of me is false. I am not at all dear to Sri Krsna." Lord Siva is actually most dear to Sri Krsna, and therefore Krsna can give him services which He cannot give anyone else. When the demigods and demons were churning the Milk Ocean in order to obtain the nectar of immortality, the first substance produced was a powerful and dangerous poison, burning the entire world. The demigods appealed to Sri Krsna, and He advised them to request Lord Siva to drink the poison. Thus, they worshiped Lord Siva and prayed, "Please save us! Only you can protect us!" Lord Siva collected the poison and took it in his mouth, but he hesitated to swallow it, considering, "Lord Krsna is in my heart. The poison will affect Him." He therefore kept the poison in his throat, which was burned, and his neck turned the color blue.


Now, out of genuine humility, Lord Siva told Narada: "I want to be His beloved devotee, but actually I am not. You know that I always wear ashes from the burial grounds, and a garland of skulls. All my associates are ghosts and witches, so I am not qualified to be Krsna's dear devotee. If I am so dear to Him, why would He have ordered me to engage with the mode of ignorance in the terrible function of destroying of the universe? ....however Narada Muni said , "Master, please don't try to mislead me'' , '' I know that whatever you do is to please Lord Krsna and to assist Him in His pastimes, for the benefit of all beings'' .

Also, what is the Gaudiya stance on "nitya-suris", a Shri Vaishnava concept grouping Vaishnavas like Chakra, Shankha, Garuda, Adi Sesha, etc together.

Adi Sesha is an epansion of the supreme appearing as one of the lords eternal associates ,as the shelter and resting place of Narayana , as Laxman who stood guard over Lord Rama whilst he slept in the forest , similarly he came as Balarama and Baladeva ,as he gave shelter to lord Narayana and Lord rama also he gave shelter to Lord Buddha whilst he sat in meditation under the Boddhi Tree , he came as Ramanujachariya again to give shelter to Narayana , and as Nityananda , the support of Lord Chaitanya , ....

Garuda prehaps is seen in a different light , ....as the mount of lord Visnu , the embodiment of the Vedas and the servant of Lord Krsna , ...who granted him imortality , ....