eugenius
The Truth Lies Within
perhaps you should look at it from the flip side.
why does god not believe in Gays, in that lies your answer.
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Gay and Atheist?
- Thread starter Katzpur
- Start date
perhaps you should look at it from the flip side.
why does god not believe in Gays, in that lies your answer.
keithnurse
Active Member
I has not been my observation where I live that most GLBT people are atheist. Most that I have talked to about it have a vague belief in a "creator god". There are many people who call themselves atheist who really are not atheists, they are just angry at God, thus rejecting God, but still believing God exists. I live in a metropolitan area of 2 million. In this area there are probably 20-25 gay affirming places of worship, whether Catholic, Protestant, UU, New Age, or other.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
What do you mean, God does not believe in gays? My God does.
daphnestory
Daphne R
Well, I'm bisexual, but I can't say that my view on religion was influenced by it. In fact, thinking back on it, I stopped believeing in god before I even noticed who I was attracted to. I think I was around 10 when I realized I never really believed in god for my own reasons, and I only started realizeing what my sexual preference was, when I was around 11 and 12. I suppose some people would stop believing in god for the reasons you listed, but more likely, they still believe in god, but just don't want to think they might go to hell for eternity for being attracted to sertain people. Most of those people probably still somewhat believe in their religion, but jsut don't want to think about the fact that (according to their real beliefs) they might be doing so wrong by being gay. Me personally, though, I think I was an atheist long before I realized I was bisexual, and even after I stoped believing in god I never really equated atheism with being gay. In fact, I never really put "atheist" and "gay" in the same sentence in my head before you asked this.
Personal experience is rarely objective or diverse.
In a way it reminds me of that old saying, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."
That is... What are you seeing? What are you looking for? If 50% of the people on this forum were atheist and gay and 50% of the people you met in your life were atheist and gay would you presume that statistic is true?
Then beyond that even. How carefully are you keeping track of what you see in terms of atheists and gays around here? Is there an excel spreadsheet with rainbow flags, upside down crosses, dawkin lovers, pro-hetero folk, loves puppies etc.
How would your personal experience rank against your neighbors and whose is more valid?
But what if you had an objective study. In an objective study about something so personal it is universally known that most people prefer to keep their so called deviant sexual behavior in the closet then how accurate are the results? (Granted a study that attempted to link Atheism as causing Homosexuality would probably only be acceptable in a loony tunes world of reality and I am fairly sure your not knocking on that door.)
Where I think you are going is does Christian teachings of proper sexual behaviors cause people to leave the faith and pursue a more rational option?
The answer is sometimes. (IMHO)
Why? Well the ideas behind what is proper sexual orientation and the teachings of what is right and wrong can touch a nerve for someone who feels strongly that something they feel is right is being characterized as sinful and wrong.
That is more plainly put, someone can feel VERY strongly about these two issues. (And other issues as I have discussed before but to stay on point here) Imagine you are raised religious, love going to church and dressing up and seeing your friends. You love bible class and the exciting stories of the ark, parting of the seas and just everything to do with god and jesus just makes you happy. Puberty comes around and your friends are sleeping over and you realize that you have feelings for one of your friends and they are the same sex. These are strong feelings and you notice similar feelings but only around people of your same same sex. You go to church one sunday and you hear how wrong and sinful and evil it is. Most people don't care because they don't feel that way. But some do care.
Some care because they don't think homosexuality is wrong and think the church is wrong and can easily divorce themselves of the church to do what they think is right. If the church was wrong about this then what else are they wrong about. Atleast they have some in roads for breaking indoctrination and embracing the genesis of skepticism.
Some care more about the church and perception and try to repress their nature and never tell anyone how they feel and to live their lives as the church states they should.
Some care more about the church but seek help for their feelings and go through various stages of counseling or confessions or private meetings and some overcome their nature. Most don't.
Some care more about their own personal beliefs and if the church disagrees with them they find a christian religion that allows homosexuality.
Some care more about perception and how their community views them and get a farce wedding while leading alternate lives.
The list goes on.....
But there is also the people who aren't gay who embrace homosexuality as deviant, sinful and evil behavior and they care. They care so much they drag people behind trucks, make fun of gay people at school, throw rocks, break windows of any car with any type of gay symbolism or engage in other harmful, hurtful and destructive behavior.
Some care more about the homosexual issue and think the church is wrong and similar to above begin to question the church on other matters.
Some care that the message their sending is hurtful to their kids and are unsure if their kids are gay or not but would never willfully subject their kids to harm.
Some care that their friends are gay and they feel they are mocking or not supporting them by going to church... etc.
And the list goes on....
Bottom line... Why does the church teach Homosexuality is wrong and do they have proof? No they have a devout blind faith and teach devotion to it with the unsubstantiated reward of afterlife goodies. (The equivalent of me selling you the rights to a toll booth of bridge I own in brooklyn). Regardless of why they teach its wrong is the teaching that is wrong doing harm? Yes? So why keep doing it? The infallible bible... Kill your kids if they talk back or dishonor you, don't eat shrimp and gay people are bad. They read and practice whatever they want. Pick and choose ministries - ostracizing and judging people based on the words of wisdom written by ancient people who thought the earth was flat and sickness and disease were infestations of demons that could be cured by priests instead of doctors. Societies of people who crucified humans and embraced slavery and torture. All that crap they got wrong but the bible... gold baby...
Yawn.
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I wasn't looking for anything. It was just something I've noticed in my four years here on RF.
I don't rank personal experience at all. Personal experiences are subjective.
I think cause and effect can work the other way as well: homosexual people who profess to be theists "decide" not to be homosexual when their religion tells them that it's sinful.
I think there's a standard model of how religious faith is supposed to "work": at the widest level, there's belief in some sort of god, then it's refined to theism, then monotheism, then Christianity, then some specific denomination. This implies that when a person feels they can't be part of their denomination any more, the "default" response is to go back one step to generic Christianity and still accept at least that until something prompts them to step back again into generic monotheism.
The more I think about it, then more I think that this isn't how it actually works... not generally, anyhow. I think our beliefs end up so tied together that it's hard to separate them that way. If someone has only ever been a theist in the context of the Catholic Church, say, I think that for many people, once they distance themselves from the Church for whatever reason, they lose their rationale for God as well.
On one podcast I listen to, one of the co-hosts (a Christian preacher) says that he is first and foremost a follower of Christ, and the main reason he believes in and worships God is that Christ taught that people should do this. It's not like he recognized that he believed in God and went looking for which religion best matched his views on that God, his theism came out of his Christianity.
I don't believe that all Christians came to their beliefs in that way, but from where I stand, it seems that's how many people build their faith: as a complex, knotted thing where it's hard to discard something like doctrine on homosexuality without damaging other things like fundamental theism. I think this might be part of why I've been asked by theists how an atheist can be a moral person: everything's all tied together in their minds and linked to their specific religious beliefs... even morality.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Speaking for myself, they were two independent processes, separated by about thirty years in time. Further, I come from a religion that does not condemn my sexuality, so that was not an issue. However, if I were going to link the two in any way, it's not the way you are. As I posted in another thread, the logic goes something like this:
I know my love is good.
Your religion says it's bad.
Therefore your religion is wrong.
I know my love is good.
Your religion says it's bad.
Therefore your religion is wrong.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
It seems somewhat logical that people who are homosexual would be more likely to become atheists than heterosexuals. It has to be difficult to reconcile the teachings of an organization you belong to with your own feelings, when the two are in opposition.
Not that being homosexual is an honest basis for being an atheist, but once the stranglehold of indoctrination is loosened, then everything else about the religion is free to be questioned and scrutinized.
I'm not homosexual, but I can identify with a religion being incompatible with my fundamental nature. I'm an atheist because I do not have the natural ability to reconcile contradictory and/or illogical beliefs, nor ignore objective truth and reality. This is fundamental to who I am, and is not compatible with the religions I've encountered, so, apart from the root question of belief in god, I simply could not honestly be a member of a religion.
Not that being homosexual is an honest basis for being an atheist, but once the stranglehold of indoctrination is loosened, then everything else about the religion is free to be questioned and scrutinized.
I'm not homosexual, but I can identify with a religion being incompatible with my fundamental nature. I'm an atheist because I do not have the natural ability to reconcile contradictory and/or illogical beliefs, nor ignore objective truth and reality. This is fundamental to who I am, and is not compatible with the religions I've encountered, so, apart from the root question of belief in god, I simply could not honestly be a member of a religion.
Quite a few homosexuals don't accept themselves on religious grounds.
Homosexuality does probably increase the odds of someone becoming an atheist, but not as much as statistics would indicate, because many choose instead to keep the faith and live conflicted.
Homosexuality does probably increase the odds of someone becoming an atheist, but not as much as statistics would indicate, because many choose instead to keep the faith and live conflicted.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
See that makes total sense to me, but the idea that God doesn't exist because such and such religion says your love is bad doesn't necessarily follow to me. I'm thinking in terms of how being lesbian (if, in fact, I were a lesbian) would affect my belief in God. I would probably just come to one of the following conclusions:
1. God hates me. He hates the fact that I love another woman and He will punish me forever for loving her. I have been warned and have no excuse.
2. God loves me and approves of my relationship. All of those crazy religious people who think He doesn't are just full of crap.
In either case, I can't imagine coming to the conclusion that God doesn't exist. Maybe I'm the one who's full of crap. Maybe I'm seeing things differently from the way they really are. It just seems to me from my own observations that there are more gays and lesbians who are gay than there are who are straight. Then again, maybe it's just this forum.
To see so many supposedly god-loving people rejecting homosexuality sure makes one think twice about sharing that belief.
Among other reasons, because in itself that state of things strongly hints that God is either non-existent or shockingly ineffective in spreading his message.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
I think #2 is pretty common. As I said, this actually had nothing to do with my atheism, and I pretty much agree with your logic. I mean, God either exists or doesn't regardless of my personal life etc. However, for me, it confirms my general impression that these beliefs are wrong.
To put it differently, if their syllogism = If God exists, then your love is wrong, then I am safe in concluding that God must not exist, as I know our love is right.
I might be repeating something already said, so forgive me if that is the case...
But belief isn't exactly a choice. Some people feel pressured into religion, pressured to claim they believe in a god as strongly as the community around them does. I stopped believing in God when I was nine. Because I went to a Catholic school, this wasn't something that would be okay to talk about, and I was a very shy kid. I probably didn't admit how I felt about religion until I was thirteen or fourteen. And then, at nineteen or so, it felt weird to admit that I switched from being an atheist to agnostic. It's even stranger to admit that I'm jealous of people who can believe in a concrete God, a being that is all things good and loves us and so on and so forth-- I want to have that kind of faith, but it's not in me. Some people believe, some don't... but I don't think it's a choice. I don't think gay people choose to not believe in God; they either do or they don't.
(And, for what it's worth, most of the gay people I've known actually followed a religion of some sort.)
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I personally agree that belief isn't a choice. Just as you say you simply can't believe in God, I simply can't NOT believe in God. That's actually more or less why I started the thread. I couldn't reconcile the high number of gays and lesbians on RF who are atheists with my opinion that we don't really choose to believe in God or not. I was trying to see how many of them really don't believe and how many have simply rejected the teachings of the churches in which they were raised and claim instead that God doesn't exist.
(I am really not expressing myself very well tonight. I apologize if I'm not making any sense. At any rate, welcome to RF!)
But can't the very existence of God be considered a "church teaching" for some people? I suppose it all depends on what the basis is for the person's beliefs... and there are probably as many different bases for belief as there are people.
If the reason a person believes in God in the first place is something like "my church told me so, and I believe my church", then when this rationale is rejected in concluding that the church's teachings on homosexuality are wrong, then I think it tends to be rejected generally as well and is no longer a reasonable basis for any belief. Unless there are other underlying reasons for the person's theism, belief in God doesn't really have anything to keep itself attached any more.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
That is an excellent observation! Obviously, the very existence of God is considered a "church teaching," not only for some people, but for every Christian, Jew, Muslim, and Baha'i on earth. I was not thinking of that when I started the thread because for me, the belief in the existence of God has nothing to do with my Church having told me so. Granted, my parents did tell me there was a God, and at quite an early age. For an atheist, that explains everything. I was indoctrinated at such an early age that I can't even remember it happening. Maybe they're right. But I cannot recall my parents ever really pushing the idea on me. I honestly feel as if I was born believing in God. Early experiences in my life simply reinforced the belief and I went to Church to educate myself about Him. Since I feel as if I was "born believing," it would be only logical for me to accept the fact that other people are "born disbelieving." I realize that's an over-simplification, but it was with that idea in mind that I started wondering how being told that God doesn't like what you're doing could make someone believe that God doesn't exist at all.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
For me, my sexual orientation was not something I feel I decided, except to embrace it and who I am. What I believe about my sexual orientation has caused me to reject certain religions that claim that there is something wrong with being gay, because I know they are dead wrong on that point. But I don't feel being gay had any bearing on my non-theism.
My belief, or lack thereof, in God was an entirely different and much longer, (and ongoing), process. I was raised to believe in God, and tried, but never really felt connected with this God I'm supposed to love and worship. But because the church I was raised in was largely fear-based, I was afraid not to believe. It wasn't even until years later after leaving that church that I could start to think about the existence of God and finally came to the conclusion that I have no proof of a deity and have never felt a connection to one, so why believe in one?