Apparently not in Ireland.There's always more than a binary choice.
Customers can compel objectionable political speech by any for-profit business which can publish messages.
Of course, their hate speech laws place some limits on this.
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Gay Cake Row: How have we come to this point?
- Thread starter Ultimatum
- Start date
Customers can compel objectionable political speech by any for-profit business which can publish messages.
Of course, their hate speech laws place some limits on this.
What if a pub refuses to stock Bushmill's because it's the "Protestant" whiskey?
Marisa
Well-Known Member
Well I wasn't talking about Ireland, but good to know!
ETA: Failure to embrace non-binary options doesn't eliminate their existence. Sorta like how science is true whether you believe in it or not.
Altfish
Veteran Member
Yes, it was meant to be the same.
How would you apply this to the products of a printer specializing in promotional material. Is the aphorism on the business card he produces under contract the expression of the printer or the customer?
Altfish
Veteran Member
I'll be there at the distillery next month
Koldo
Outstanding Member
I see this as an agreement between two parts. The provider and the buyer. If it was advertised that any message would be written on the cake then the provider has to write whatever message the buyer wants to ( unless that entails breaking a law ). In any other case, it is up to the provider to accept or reject any service. Just because you are able to provide a given service it doesn't mean that you have to. Actually, this reminds me of another debate long ago about a canadian doctor refusing to provide contraceptives.
That depends on how it's done, IMO.
If the printer is involved in the layout, typesetting, etc., then the expression of the printer is involved. If we're talking about a service like VistaPrint, where the customer chooses from a range of pre-made templates and makes all content and style decisions himself/herself, then the printer is really just a reproduction service, and the act of running off copies of it isn't in and of itself an act of expression.
I disagree.
One can have layers of expression. If I go to a printer and say:
"I want a stylish business card that prominently includes the phrase 'Honest (Non-Jewish) Business' on the front."
I may be giving the establishment a good deal of artistic leeway but the antisemitic sentiment expressed is mine and mandated by me.
... but that antisemitic sentiment can't get onto a business card without the printer's creative expression in terms of things like typesetting and graphic design. I'm saying that it's reasonable for a printer to refuse to use his talents to create such a design (or any design he chooses not to have a hand in).
Wirey
Fartist
Does every discussion of this issue have to dissolve into semantics? "But, what if the dude like hates Chinese, and the cook is dating a Chinese chick? What then?"
Law. The law. The law says you don't get to deny someone service because they're gay. Just like the time I had to take down that sign on my lunch counter that said "Whites Only". Get it? You might hate black people, but they have the same right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as every other citizen. And discriminating against someone for being born gay is exactly the same as a Jim Crow car. If this baker's view of the world is so distorted that he thinks writing "Stick it in my hairy bunghole" (I assume a traditional gay wedding expression) in pink and chocolate frosting will somehow harm him, I for one am overjoyed at the idea of his death due to starvation, and subsequent exit from the gene pool. The law occasionally exists to protect people who have no other recourse to protect themselves, and if you feel differently, you are one of the bigots who made Selma the lovely place it was in the '60s, whether you mean it or not.
I think it should be illegal to force someone to make food for retarded or elderly people. After all, they're a burden on society. And don't get me started on Jews, natives, and Italians.
Law. The law. The law says you don't get to deny someone service because they're gay. Just like the time I had to take down that sign on my lunch counter that said "Whites Only". Get it? You might hate black people, but they have the same right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as every other citizen. And discriminating against someone for being born gay is exactly the same as a Jim Crow car. If this baker's view of the world is so distorted that he thinks writing "Stick it in my hairy bunghole" (I assume a traditional gay wedding expression) in pink and chocolate frosting will somehow harm him, I for one am overjoyed at the idea of his death due to starvation, and subsequent exit from the gene pool. The law occasionally exists to protect people who have no other recourse to protect themselves, and if you feel differently, you are one of the bigots who made Selma the lovely place it was in the '60s, whether you mean it or not.
I think it should be illegal to force someone to make food for retarded or elderly people. After all, they're a burden on society. And don't get me started on Jews, natives, and Italians.
And I'm suggesting that this is irrelevant bordering on sophomoric.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
The issue is not about denying service to certain people though, but rather about denying certain services.
In other words, any gay individual can buy any cake there, but no person at all could buy a cake with that message written on it.
I agree with this. I think it's a slippery slope though, about drawing the line on what is offensive. As a baker should I be compelled to portray private parts on a cake (yes seen it, don't ask) if it offends me? (that offends even me). That's something I don't think I should be compelled to do. It does reflect on me and my business.
Were I the owner of the print shop discussed in post #29, I fully suspect that I would refuse the business (and perhaps suffer the consequences).
Maybe you should be clearer about what you're after, then.
It's normal and acceptable for merchants to decide what they will and won't sell. If someone asks a printer to sell him anti-semitic business cards, the printer has every right to refuse. This is different from refusing to sell to an anti-semite. Do you disagree?
I believe that the printer should have every right to refuse.
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I agree with the ruling - you can't decide to refuse someone a service you purport to offer to the public based on sexual orientation or their expression of it. Religion should not be used as a means to operate above the law; particularly considering businesses don't have religions.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
That would be discriminating against gays though, wouldn't it?
Do you think this for all matters of conscience, or only ones where the business person agrees with you?