Gay Cake Row: How have we come to this point?

[genypher]

I didn't read all the comments, but as I am a photographer who has shot several weddings, this sort of stuff impacts me.

I am pro-marriage equality, so these specific issues don't bother me. However, it has given me pause when people ask me to shoot their weddings and I feel inclined to refuse. I think that a business owner should reserve the right to refuse business if they feel uncomfortable doing it. But, at the same time, we are providing a service for our clients-- we are lending our talents to helping them realize their vision as much as our own. There is some compromise that comes into play when it comes to our views and our beliefs. If I wished to serve only those of a similar belief system to myself, then I would be out of business. This is a tough call...

 

[Revoltingest]

I didn't read all the comments, but as I am a photographer who has shot several weddings, this sort of stuff impacts me.

I am pro-marriage equality, so these specific issues don't bother me. However, it has given me pause when people ask me to shoot their weddings and I feel inclined to refuse. I think that a business owner should reserve the right to refuse business if they feel uncomfortable doing it. But, at the same time, we are providing a service for our clients-- we are lending our talents to helping them realize their vision as much as our own. There is some compromise that comes into play when it comes to our views and our beliefs. If I wished to serve only those of a similar belief system to myself, then I would be out of business. This is a tough call...

Photography is an interesting wrinkle because one's personal dysfunctions (eg, homophobia) could make it impossible to do a gay wedding with the expected artistry. To refuse to do the wedding because of a personal inadequacy wouldn't be discrimination IMO....even though it would superficially look like it.

 

[genypher]

Photography is an interesting wrinkle because one's personal dysfunctions (eg, homophobia) could make it impossible to do a gay wedding with the expected artistry. To refuse to do the wedding because of a personal inadequacy wouldn't be discrimination IMO....even though it would superficially look like it.

Yeah, I have tried to consider a similar scenario wherein my personal beliefs would be so offended that my photography would come out looking like a mockery. I assume a creationist wedding/event would do the trick. Though, I'd probably accept the job all the same!

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah, I have tried to consider a similar scenario wherein my personal beliefs would be so offended that my photography would come out looking like a mockery. I assume a creationist wedding/event would do the trick. Though, I'd probably accept the job all the same!

Hey, you should post more often!
Were I a wedding photographer, I'd not be able to do a NAMBLA affair.
My hate would seep into the pix.

 

[genypher]

Eww. Yeah. Child Brides and such... couldn't do it. Any situation where consent was questionable at best would be a no-go.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The difference is the message on the cake that the bakery was asked to print. This has nothing to do with the customer. If a heterosexual asked for the same cake, it would be denied as well.

It may be a safe assumption they have made plenty of heterosexual marriage cakes.
I do find it hilarious, this group wants to turn away gay customers, but, at the same time, they welcome the severe exploitation that creates Apple products with open arms. Not many people are aware that Nestle, Hershey, and Mars get some of their chocolate from sources that produce it via child slave labor. Where is their moral concern over such things?
And customers can be mean, nasty, hateful, and very demeaning. And it usually takes just happening to have an equally awesome customer in at the same to stand up against the toxic ones. And no matter what they call you, no matter how demeaning and degrading, it almost always requires a manager to tell them to leave. At best, the worker has probably only had very brief training about how "smiles and apologies" defuse a bad situation, and in this case it's only making it worse.
And these "religious" types are wanting to turn people away over joyous circumstances and not show a care or concern in the world about trying to fix a much larger and more severe problem in customer service?

This seems a hard view to get across.
Because opposition to discrimination against gay folk is such an emotion laden issue, even non-discrimination (a political message on a cake) is conflated with discrimination against the group.

It would be unacceptable for a white baker to refuse to make a cake and write a slogan on it honoring Black History Month. You would find the Klan and Neo-Nazis defending the baker, and plenty of lawyers lined up to defend the customer. If a baker refused to make a cake honoring rape victims or single mothers, their would be a huge uproar. A baker would only be considered a cruel heartless ******* if the refused cake had something to do with honoring AIDs victims. But, on the other hand, denying to make pizza for a gay wedding can potentially make you a ton of money.
And, of course, once you start allowing religious exceptions for one thing, where do you cut them off at?
As far as precedence goes, any other situation has involved groups who form cultures of their own, such as the Amish being allowed many religious exceptions and the Native Americans who where eventually granted exceptions to use peyote. As far as main stream society goes, the judiciary bodies that govern it already threw out religious-based reasoning when they done away with things such as "separate but equal" and interracial marriages.

 

[Revoltingest]

It would be unacceptable for a white baker to refuse to make a cake and write a slogan on it honoring Black History Month. You would find the Klan and Neo-Nazis defending the baker, and plenty of lawyers lined up to defend the customer. If a baker refused to make a cake honoring rape victims or single mothers, their would be a huge uproar. A baker would only be considered a cruel heartless ******* if the refused cake had something to do with honoring AIDs victims. But, on the other hand, denying to make pizza for a gay wedding can potentially make you a ton of money.
And, of course, once you start allowing religious exceptions for one thing, where do you cut them off at?

It is surely a messy situation when government gets to decide who can be forced to say what in a public accommodation. I've no solution to the controversy.....only a preference for erring on the side of less government regulation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Will Muslim print shops now be fined for not printing ordered cartoons of the prophet Muhammad?

Asher's bakery did not deny service based on the person's sexuality. The bakery denied service because it was asked to bake a cake with a message that it disagreed with, and could not endorse.

The bakery didn't deny service:

He paid in full but was shocked to be told two days later that the firm would not supply the cake.

Gay cake row: Ashers Bakery limits offerings after Sunday Life request replica of Support Gay Marriage cake - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

The bakery agreed to provide the cake and then failed to deliver on its promise.

The time to exercise your freedom of conscience is BEFORE you freely accept their money.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It is surely a messy situation when government gets to decide who can be forced to say what in a public accommodation. I've no solution to the controversy.....only a preference for erring on the side of less government regulation.

It's not just in regards to the state, but in regards to society. The state has gradually but consistently worked towards doing away with "special exceptions" in regards to discrimination, which eventually does lead to less government as the law becomes more simplified without all the "extras" to consider.
But as far as society goes, it's really no different than any other time society has permitted to use of religion to discriminate. It used to be god's word that white people were better, and white and black people shouldn't mix, but there is little tolerance of such a message today.
Of course though, this is a symptom of a much larger problem in society. It's a crime to feed to the poor in some areas, women are still widely regarded as weaker and inferior, and there are still many who use the Bible to justify various aspects of racial segregation. As for this particular issue, it isn't just about who the government may-or-may-not allow special exemptions against, it's that society has many parts who openly embracing such discrimination. And it works its way back up to the state, because the same people who are pushing to allow this are also, very frequently, pushing crackpot ideas about homosexuality at the state level.

 

[Ingledsva]

As I've already said, the customer was not denied service because of their sexuality. If they came in and asked for a cake, and also said "I'm gay", the bakery wouldn't have cared.

The difference is the message on the cake that the bakery was asked to print. This has nothing to do with the customer. If a heterosexual asked for the same cake, it would be denied as well.

In response to Ingledsva, if a divorced person asked them to bake a cake saying something silly like "Divorce is great!" or "Sex out of wedlock is fantastic!" then I doubt they would have made those cakes either. They don't mind who asks them for their services, the point is that they were asked to bake a cake with a message they strongly disagreed with, and were well within their rights of refusing.

In response to Shadow Wolf's whole "Jesus loved prostitutes" bit, if Jesus was a baker I'm sure he would serve all of these people groups well, but would He bake a cake saying "Prostitution is not sinful and is great fun"? That's the point of the issue, it's being forced to print a message you disagree with, not the state of the customer.

As the court found, - THEY ARE A BUISNESS, - and writing a sentence on a cake, - regardless of what it say,s - in NO way hampers, or changes, or compromises, a worker's, or owners religion.

*

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As the court found, - THEY ARE A BUISNESS, - and writing a sentence on a cake, - regardless of what it say,s - in NO way hampers, or changes, or compromises, a worker's, or owners religion.

*

And next comes how Christians are under attack in this country, which is pretty much a strong acknowledgment of how they have taken for granted many of those things that those who have truly been attacked have been denied.
Any other time discrimination has been legally challenged, ultimately the courts decide to not allow it, and that ultimately leads to people thinking it's terrible to discriminate against those people who it was not too long ago socially perfectly acceptable to discriminate against based on religious grounds.
Not too many people in their right mind would harp on about how having to serve black people is an infringement upon their religious rights, and their only supporters tend to be far-right Christians and Libertarians.

 

[fantome profane]

The difference is the message on the cake that the bakery was asked to print. This has nothing to do with the customer. If a heterosexual asked for the same cake, it would be denied as well.

Has it been reported exactly what the message was that they wanted to have printed on the cake?

What if a same sex couple asked for a wedding cake for their wedding and only wanted the word "Congratulations" written on it? Do you think this bakery would have made that cake?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Has it been reported exactly what the message was that they wanted to have printed on the cake?

According to the article I linked to a few posts back, it was supposed to be "support gay marriage" and the logo of a local gay rights group on an image of Bert & Ernie from Sesame Street.

 

[Wirey]

According to the article I linked to a few posts back, it was supposed to be "support gay marriage" and the logo of a local gay rights group on an image of Bert & Ernie from Sesame Street.

That is offensive. But, not illegal.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Has it been reported exactly what the message was that they wanted to have printed on the cake?

What if a same sex couple asked for a wedding cake for their wedding and only wanted the word "Congratulations" written on it? Do you think this bakery would have made that cake?

The message was "Support Gay Marriage." Can't get much more explicit than that...

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

As the court found, - THEY ARE A BUISNESS, - and writing a sentence on a cake, - regardless of what it say,s - in NO way hampers, or changes, or compromises, a worker's, or owners religion.

*

So you would bake a cake which was against gay marriage? You would bake a cake which read "Marriage is only between a man and a woman"? You'd just bake anything, eh?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The message was "Support Gay Marriage." Can't get much more explicit than that...

Oh, you could get MUCH more explicit.

... in any case, it wasn't explicit enough for the shop to refuse to take their money. The cake was ordered and paid for - in person, I gather. A real live employee of the shop took their design and had no issues with it while the order was paid in full. It was only 2 days later that they had a change of heart and refused to make the cake... after already agreeing to make it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So you would bake a cake which was against gay marriage? You would bake a cake which read "Marriage is only between a man and a woman"? You'd just bake anything, eh?

If I had a business, why wouldn't I? And while I wouldn't bake anything, such as something advocating murder, but tolerating opposing viewpoints and being able to get along with those people is a hallmark of a secular society. We may not have to agree with them, but that we get along to put aside differences and make society work gets us much further than insisting everyone has to agree with you.
And, besides, after I sold them the cake then I would have the chance to give every last dime of it to a pro-gay cause!

 

[Ingledsva]

So you would bake a cake which was against gay marriage? You would bake a cake which read "Marriage is only between a man and a woman"? You'd just bake anything, eh?

If that was my job - YES!

I don't have to believe what the customer believes.

*

 

[leibowde84]

OK let's look at a couple different situations. A man calls a taxi company. when the taxi arrives he asks to be taken to another city over a hundred miles away. the driver says he can't do that.the man says he is gay and will sue for sexual discrimination. should the taxi driver be forced to take him there. or what if the customer is black and says he will sue for racial discrimination. how much control should government have?
second example. there is a very well known tailor who makes high quality expensive suits for men. one day a woman says she wants a suit made. it does not matter why. maybe she is going to a halloween party.the tailor says he nevber makes suits for women because he is not comfortable working with the female body and does not want to mess up and do a poor job. then the woman says she is a lesbian and will sue. should the tailor have to make a suit for her. should a business have any contrl over what business it takes or does not take or should government control ever decision

If you don't already provide a product or service, as in your examples, there is no issue. The self-proclaimed victims would have no standing. Discrimination only becomes an issue when someone refuses to sell a product they DO offer already, simply because they don't want to do business with the individual. So, straw man arguments like these and the "forcing a kosher deli to serve bacon" do not create any kind of substantial issue.