Gaza civilians killed at historic pace

[libre]

From the NYT: Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed at Historic Pace
People are being killed in Gaza more quickly, they say, than in even the deadliest moments of U.S.-led attacks in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan, which were themselves widely criticized by human rights groups.

Precise comparisons of war dead are impossible, but conflict-casualty experts have been taken aback at just how many people have been reported killed in Gaza — most of them women and children — and how rapidly.

It is not just the scale of the strikes — Israel said it had engaged more than 15,000 targets before reaching a brief cease-fire in recent days. It is also the nature of the weaponry itself.

Israel’s liberal use of very large weapons in dense urban areas, including U.S.-made 2,000-pound bombs that can flatten an apartment tower, is surprising, some experts say.

“It’s beyond anything that I’ve seen in my career,” said Marc Garlasco, a military adviser for the Dutch organization PAX and a former senior intelligence analyst at the Pentagon. To find a historical comparison for so many large bombs in such a small area, he said, we may “have to go back to Vietnam, or the Second World War.”

In fighting during this century, by contrast, U.S. military officials often believed that the most common American aerial bomb — a 500-pound weapon — was far too large for most targets when battling the Islamic State in urban areas like Mosul, Iraq, and Raqqa, Syria.

I found the details here about the use of explosives that were considered too large for Isis being used on the Palestinians to be an interesting detail I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere in the news.

Does anyone think there any justification for this use of more powerful explosives in a more densely populated region?
Death tolls often aren't useful because their discussion doesn't really get to the root of why people died, but I think the above is considerable cause for concern.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

From the NYT: Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed at Historic Pace

There seems to be a paywall.

 

[libre]

There seems to be a paywall.

Thanks for letting me know, don't know why I seem to get free access. The full text is too long to copy into a reply, but it seems that archive.org has some of the more recent edits.

Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed at Historic Pace

Even a conservative assessment of the reported Gaza casualty figures shows that the rate of death during Israel’s assault has few precedents in this century, experts say.

web.archive.org

 

[metis]

Simply put, Hamas planned this knowing well what Israel in general would likely do, so let's put the blame where it truly is due. If they truly were concerned about themselves and other Palestinians, they certainly wouldn't have done this.

 

[metis]

In modern wars, by far most people killed are civilians. That's the unfortunate reality. Hamas, which is one proxy of Iran, started, this darn well knowing Israel would respond, and yet they did it anyway.

 

[libre]

Simply put, Hamas planned this knowing well what Israel in general would likely do, so let's put the blame where it truly is due. If they truly were concerned about themselves and other Palestinians, they certainly wouldn't have done this.

I do not agree with this perspective.
Governments have an obligation to respond rationally to terrorism, and we should not let them off the hook for disproportionate responses to terror which demonstrate a disregard for civilian life. Let's not let nations think that they get a get out of sanctions free card to operate however they please whenever they are attacked by terrorists.

 

[metis]

I do not agree with this perspective.
Governments have an obligation to respond rationally to terrorism, and we should not let them off the hook for disproportionate responses to terror which demonstrate a disregard for civilian life. Let's not let nations think that they get a get out of sanctions free card to operate however they please whenever they are attacked by terrorists.

It takes two [or more] to tango, and if one side ain't dancing then there is no tango. Hamas well knew what it was doing and invited such attacks through their massacre.

Yes, I truly feel sorry for the innocents who have and are dying, but we all should remember who initiated the attack. Hamas must be eliminated-- period.

 

[Revoltingest]

In modern wars, by far most people killed are civilians. That's the unfortunate reality.

Your posts are repeatedly sanguine about Palestinian
deaths....just "unfortunate reality" of war. But oh, the
pain when 10% of the deaths are Israelis....that isn't
excused as the unfortunate reality of the oppressed
rebelling against the brutal oppressor.
I sense a bad case of parochial empathy for Jews,
but not Muslims.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, I truly feel sorry for the innocents who have and are dying, but we all should remember who initiated the attack. Hamas must be eliminated-- period.

How many innocent Palestinians are you willing to kill,
20,000...50,000....100,000? Are you willing to destroy
all of Gaza, & begin such destruction in neighboring
countries where Hamas takes refuge?
Your posts always invoke Jesus to call for benevolence...
...but not for Muslims

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Simply put, Hamas planned this knowing well what Israel in general would likely do, so let's put the blame where it truly is due. If they truly were concerned about themselves and other Palestinians, they certainly wouldn't have done this.

Hamas is responsible for what Hamas has done and does. Israel is responsible for what Israel has done and does.
This is basic psychology, therapy and interrelationship dynamics. Blaming others isn't constructive, healthy or good.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I found the details here about the use of explosives that were considered too large for Isis being used on the Palestinians to be an interesting detail I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere in the news.

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[libre]

Hamas must be eliminated-- period.

So your stance is 'all is fair in war'? Israel can be as brutal and indiscriminate as it likes as long as it destroys Hamas?
Would you hold the same position if it were the Irish? What if the FLQ picked up again in Quebec, would the Canadian government have the right to carpet bomb Montreal?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Governments have an obligation to respond rationally to terrorism, ...

Excellent. Would you mind outlining a rational response to

• a barbaric terrorist attack that killed an estimated 1200 people,
• abducted some 240 men, women and children,
• retreated into high-density population centers,
• joined Hezbollah in firing hundreds of rockets into random sites in Israel,
• and continue to use civilian hostages as bargaining chips,

all with total disregard for the wellbeing of the Gazan population while forks like you and others cannot seem to bring yourself to condemn such war crimes or demand the immediate release of the hostages?

 

[libre]

Would you mind outlining a rational response to

• a barbaric terrorist attack that killed an estimated 1200 people,
• abducted some 240 men, women and children,
• retreated into high-density population centers,
• joined Hezbollah in firing hundreds of rockets into random sites in Israel,
• and continue to use civilian hostages as bargaining chips,

Did you read the article?
How about reducing the frequency of the bombing to account for civilian patterns of life as the Americans do?
How about not using bombs that are 4x the weight of those that U.S. military officials considered inappropriate to use in Ubran environments?

Let's be clear - the US is a very low bar for what can be considered an acceptable response to terrorism.

Do you believe the military decisions mentioned in the NYT article are acceptable?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Excellent. Would you mind outlining a rational response to

• a barbaric terrorist attack that killed an estimated 1200 people,
• abducted some 240 men, women and children,
• retreated into high-density population centers,
• joined Hezbollah in firing hundreds of rockets into random sites in Israel,
• and continue to use civilian hostages as bargaining chips,

all with total disregard for the wellbeing of the Gazan population while forks like you and others cannot seem to bring yourself to condemn such war crimes or demand the immediate release of the hostages?

Probably go after Hamas rather than a mass writ of execution against the Gazan Palastenians and ending specifically Hamas leaders and those under them who won't lay down their arms. That's better than invading and putting everyonei their path to the sword.

 

[libre]

while forks like you and others cannot seem to bring yourself to condemn such war crimes or demand the immediate release of the hostages?

What possible purpose do you think 'forks like me' demanding the release of Hamas hostages would serve other than derailing this thread? Hamas simply do not care what any of us here think.

I shouldn't have to add a disclaimer that I oppose Hamas and that I oppose the killing and hostage taking of innocents every time I mention that the Israeli government or military are not acting responsibly.

 

[Twilight Hue]

From the NYT: Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed at Historic Pace
People are being killed in Gaza more quickly, they say, than in even the deadliest moments of U.S.-led attacks in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan, which were themselves widely criticized by human rights groups.



I found the details here about the use of explosives that were considered too large for Isis being used on the Palestinians to be an interesting detail I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere in the news.

Does anyone think there any justification for this use of more powerful explosives in a more densely populated region?
Death tolls often aren't useful because their discussion doesn't really get to the root of why people died, but I think the above is considerable cause for concern.

Yep. Just strap explosives on one's own men, woman, and children an blow themselves up , taking as many as you can with you and get your photo on a martyrs wall. Don't forget to pick up the body parts and keep them as talisman.

Screw people like that.

 

[Revoltingest]

Did you read the article?
How about reducing the frequency of the bombing to account for civilian patterns of life as the Americans do?
How about not using bombs that are 4x the weight of those that U.S. military officials considered inappropriate to use in Ubran environments?

Let's be clear - the US is a very low bar for what can be considered an acceptable response to terrorism.

Do you believe the military decisions mentioned in the NYT article are acceptable?

He's ignored the answers to this question that
he & others have repeatedly posed. It seems a
rhetorical question that justifies Israel's war
crimes.

 

[Revoltingest]

all with total disregard for the wellbeing of the Gazan population while forks like you and others cannot seem to bring yourself to condemn such war crimes or demand the immediate release of the hostages?

Yours is a typical Israel apologist ad hominem attack,
ie, instead of addressing the issue, decry the critic.

How dare she criticize Israel for killing 10 times as
many people as Hamas did....& for demolishing Gaza!
Your thread should be about his focus, not yours.
It should be about Hamas!

Well, our tax money isn't supporting Hamas...we're
paying Israel to commit war crimes & apartheid,
& steal Palestinian land. So this is the greater evil
that we can possibly influence for the better.

The irony is that your posts do this to defend Israel's
war crimes & apartheid.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Probably go after Hamas ...

Brilliant idea. How might they do that?