Gaza civilians killed at historic pace

[ImmortalFlame]

genocides

The claim that Israel's intent is the elimination of the Palestinian people is a disgusting lie.

Then please explain to me the intention behind the annexing of Palestinian land, the removal of Palestinian rights, the denial of Palestinian sovereignty, the war crimes against Palestinians and the continued destruction of Palestinian settlements and the erasure of their history.

It's genocide. To deny it, at this stage, is genocide denial. I don't care what technicality you conjure up to try and downplay it. It's what's happening.

 

[icehorse]

Why does that justify genocide against Palestinian civilians?

The link you provided says that "Palestine" was invented in 1988 - that's worth keeping in mind.

And again, you continue to use this word "genocide". I'm sorry but that sounds like a parrot talking. You yourself provided a definition of "genocide" just a few posts ago. That definition - that you provided - is at odds with the claims you are making.

This is an important issue. It's important to talk about. But it's not simple, it's complex. And it's impossible to have meaningful conversations when you insist on misusing key terms like "genocide".

 

[icehorse]

So what do you suggest? That Israel just bombs and shoots through the human shields?

Israel pointing the finger at Hamas and saying they are hiding behind civilians does not give them the right to kill said civilians. As the supposed moral agent in the conflict, they should not kill civilians. It is up to Israel to come up with a solution that does not involve genocide of civilians. If they cannot or will not do that, then they are evil terrorists.

Were the allies justified in killing German civilians in WWII?

 

[an anarchist]

Were the allies justified in killing German civilians in WWII?

Were the soldiers justified in killing noncombatants in wartime?

What does WW2 have to do with the question at hand, questioning the present day massacre of thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians at the hands of Israel? Really, please explain to me the relevance of your reply. Because I see none.

How important is context when it comes to killing innocent civilians? Is it ever right?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The link you provided says that "Palestine" was invented in 1988 - that's worth keeping in mind.

Why? What does that matter?

And again, you continue to use this word "genocide". I'm sorry but that sounds like a parrot talking. You yourself provided a definition of "genocide" just a few posts ago. That definition - that you provided - is at odds with the claims you are making.

No, it isn't. Palestinians are the group being targeted for mass death. It's very explicit.

This is an important issue. It's important to talk about. But it's not simple, it's complex. And it's impossible to have meaningful conversations when you insist on misusing key terms like "genocide".

I believe it's important to call genocides genocide, because it shows a willingness to engage seriously in the reality of the topic being discussed rather than an inability to engage with the subject honestly by dancing around technicalities and refusing to talk about what is actually happening.

It's a genocide. The fact that you are currently more focused on and upset about me (accurately) calling it a genocide, rather than acknowledging the physical reality of what's going on (i.e: the genocide) says a lot.

 

[icehorse]

Were the soldiers justified in killing noncombatants in wartime?

What does WW2 have to do with the question at hand, questioning the present day massacre of thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians at the hands of Israel? Really, please explain to me the relevance of your reply. Because I see none.

How important is context when it comes to killing innocent civilians? Is it ever right?

would you agree that we're ultimately discussing questions of morality?

 

[icehorse]

No, it isn't. Palestinians are the group being targeted for mass death. It's very explicit.

Recently I read this short piece by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, it's called "Live Not By Lies". (link below)

The Palestinians are NOT being targeted for mass death. That's a huge lie. If that was the case, this war would have been over a day after Hamas attacked Israel.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn Center — Solzhenitsyn Live Not by Lies

 

[icehorse]

The fact that you are currently more focused on and upset about me (accurately) calling it a genocide, rather than acknowledging the physical reality of what's going on (i.e: the genocide) says a lot.

As a thought experiment, try to describe what's going on without using the word "genocide".

And again, were the allies committing genocide against German civilians in WWII?

And finally, as far as I can recall, the ONLY thing I've denied is that this is a "genocide". I've acknowledged that Israel is trying to eliminate Hamas.

 

[fantome profane]

As for killing Palestinians, do you understand that Hamas terrorists - who are supposed to be the leaders of the Palestinians in Gaza - are using Palestinians as human shields? Do you understand that the Hamas cowards hide behind Palestinian women and children?

This is all true and understood. Hamas is a terrorist organization. There actions are utterly despicable.

But "thought experiment".

What if instead of using Palestinian woman and children as human shields, they were using Israeli woman and children? Would it still be ok to bomb them? What if they were using American women and children? What if they were using your children?

I suspect if Israel were killing thousands of American children in this war, attitudes would be different.

 

[icehorse]

This is all true and understood. Hamas is a terrorist organization. There actions are utterly despicable.

But "thought experiment".

What if instead of using Palestinian woman and children as human shields, they were using Israeli woman and children? Would it still be ok to bomb them? What if they were using American women and children? What if they were using your children?

I suspect if Israel were killing thousands of American children in this war, attitudes would be different.

I think this is an important question. First off, and to be clear, IMO WAR SUCKS!!!

My understanding is that moral political leaders and generals have to zoom out and look at the biggest picture they can, when making wartime decisions. It's a form of utilitarianism. For example, I think something like 10,000 or 20,000 French civilians were killed as a result of D-Day. And that Allied leaders and generals (including the French), predicted that that would happen. But these moral leaders felt that - from the larger perspective - D-Day was the correct decision.

So I think we have to zoom out when we look at situations like this. Because no matter what, the day to day engaging in war will always be horrible.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

As for killing Palestinians, do you understand that Hamas terrorists - who are supposed to be the leaders of the Palestinians in Gaza - are using Palestinians as human shields? Do you understand that the Hamas cowards hide behind Palestinian women and children?

Newsflash: Israel uses human shields and has for years:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://euromedmonitor.org/uploads/reports/human-shields_en.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi1ioyOtPaCAxX3k4kEHZdZBnA4HhAWegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw1T5gLQNvwQxwLYOkC83ll4

https://www.btselem.org/human_shields

Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.

A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields.

www.reuters.com

Just some examples. I can find more, including videos.

Oh, and just a reminder:
The “Human Shields” Defense of Bombing Gaza’s Civilians Is Morally Bankrupt

The “Human Shields” Defense of Bombing Gaza’s Civilians Is Morally Bankrupt

Apologists for Israel’s bombing spree of schools and hospitals in Gaza say Hamas is using the civilians there as “human shields.” But that justification makes no sense even if we accept the premise — in a hostage situation, you don’t just kill the hostage.

jacobin.com

 

[libre]

That is ignorant rubbish that serves only to cheapen the term. Did your school fail to teach about the holocaust?

"Raz Segal, the program director of genocide studies at Stockton University, concretely says it is a “textbook case of genocide.”

Others disagree.
It's not as simple as you're laying out. There is not academic consensus that this is genocide, but there are many very important people and experts in the field, including UN special reporters that are stating criteria was met.

Is What's Happening in Gaza a Genocide? Experts Weigh In

Scholars are torn on whether the current conflict can be yet classified a genocide officially.

web.archive.org

As for invoking the Holocaust, comparisons to the Holocaust are used to try to deny many of the genocides on the wiki article you listed.

 

[fantome profane]

IMO WAR SUCKS!!!

Way to be controversial.


What you are saying is these women and children are "acceptable losses". I do not believe that if thousands of American children were dying in this war, it would be considered acceptable.

 

[metis]

genocides

The claim that Israel's intent is the elimination of the Palestinian people is a disgusting lie.

Absolutely correct, and when such disingenuous hyperbole is used it certainly diminishes what they say. If Israel wanted to eliminate the Palestinians they could have done long ago.

Plus, some seem to have a serious problem with cause and effect, as it was Hamas' attack of innocent civilians that triggered this nasty situation, and yet that gets ignored by these accusers. If it had happened to them, would they respond any differently? How did the States respond to Pearl Harbor? to 9-11? etc.

 

[Orbit]

Absolutely correct, and when such disingenuous hyperbole is used it certainly diminishes what they say. If Israel wanted to eliminate the Palestinians they could have done long ago.

Plus, some seem to have a serious problem with cause and effect, as it was Hamas' attack of innocent civilians that triggered this nasty situation, and yet that gets ignored by these accusers. If it had happened to them, would they respond any differently? How did the States respond to Pearl Harbor? to 9-11? etc.

As I have responded to elsewhere, the U.S. response to 9/11 was terrible, and led us into two expensive and senseless wars. The situation in Israel didn't start on Oct 7th. You might find the article below interesting:

Why there can never be a two-state solution

As Palestinians mark 50 years since the UN ordered Israeli forces to withdraw, experts say lasting peace is impossible.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[metis]

As I have responded to elsewhere, the U.S. response to 9/11 was terrible, and led us into two expensive and senseless wars. The situation in Israel didn't start on Oct 7th. You might find the article below interesting:

Why there can never be a two-state solution

As Palestinians mark 50 years since the UN ordered Israeli forces to withdraw, experts say lasting peace is impossible.

www.aljazeera.com

Consider the source.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

"Raz Segal, the program director of genocide studies at Stockton University, concretely says it is a “textbook case of genocide.”

Others disagree.
It's not as simple as you're laying out. There is not academic consensus that this is genocide, but there are many very important people and experts in the field, including UN special reporters that are stating criteria was met.

To claim that Gaza serves as evidence of Israel's intent to eliminate the Palestinian people is disingenuous or delusional.

 

[Orbit]

Consider the source.

If you look into the history, and you are welcome to use Google, you will find many sources. I'm sure one will be to your liking, but the facts reported therein are the same.

 

[metis]

If you look into the history, and you are welcome to use Google, you will find many sources. I'm sure one will be to your liking, but the facts reported therein are the same.

I already have numerous times over. Maybe try again.

Notice that the P.A. that runs the WB is not fighting Israelis, plus the fact is that the P.A. and Hamas do not get along.

Prior to the assault by Hamas on civilians, which you perpetually ignore along with the missiles Hamas keeps launching into Israel, it was not Israel that's the problem as long as peace is present. As a matter of fact, some Palestinians from both areas are/were working in Israel. I was on a kibbutz in the Negev that had hired them, and I was on a kibbutz just west of Jerusalem that had both Jews and Palestinians working side by side.

IOW, I've seen this for myself. Have you?

End of discussion for me.

 

[Orbit]

I already have numerous times over. Maybe try again.

Notice that the P.A. that runs the WB is not fighting Israelis, plus the fact is that the P.A. and Hamas do not get along.

Prior to the assault by Hamas on civilians, which you perpetually ignore along with the missiles Hamas keeps launching into Israel, it was not Israel that's the problem as long as peace is present. As a matter of fact, some Palestinians from both areas are/were working in Israel. I was on a kibbutz in the Negev that had hired them, and I was on a kibbutz just west of Jerusalem that had both Jews and Palestinians working side by side.

IOW, I've seen this for myself. Have you?

End of discussion for me.

This didn't start on Oct 7th. That is my point. I'm not sure what your point is. Is it that because you've been there you know the history better? Sounds like a logical fallacy to me, but whatever.