Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Actually yes.
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Gaza civilians killed at historic pace
- Thread starter libre
- Start date
Orbit
I'm a planet
How do you know?
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Oh, I dunno. Around a couple of thousand rockets launched recently......
Orbit
I'm a planet
Your reasoning is odd. The rockets are because they want a state of their own.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Nope. They, meaning militant Hamas, wants Israel made into a parking lot and all the jews dead.
Orbit
I'm a planet
Judging by the actions of two parties, it's the Israelis who want Gaza to be a parking lot, and all the Palestinians dead.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Not a strawman. Israel is explicitly committing genocide, and those defending its actions in Gaza are defending genocide.
Those opposing it are doing so from a position of opposing genocide.
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You clearly don't think that Israel deserves an answer.
You'll be surprised to read that I generally agree with your last paragraph. I also agree with the rabbi who pleaded:
“Our human ask is that people give a damn when we die.”
It is a a sentiment that is conspicuously absent as opposed to, for example, the impassioned insistence that the people of Israel simply acquiesce to defeat at the hands of a vicious antisemitic barbarism that inflicts and invites carnage as a fundamental strategy, and promises that it will continue to do so irrespective of how Israel will respond.
You wrote:
Do you truly believe that "reducing the frequency of the bombing to account for Palestinian patterns of life" answers my question? Are you aware of what happened to the last cease-fire or, for that matter, that October 7 was a barbaric truce violation?
Never mind -- I wouldn't want you to waste time 'entertaining my whataboutism' ...
In 09 I watched videos of israel firing phosphorus munitions over civilians of gaza. i do not believe i have seen worse from either.
From The Times of Israel: ICC chief prosecutor meets Oct. 7 survivors in Israel, PA president:
I appreciate the visit and the remarks.
Khan toured some of the communities attacked during the October 7 Hamas onslaught, including Kibbutz Be’eri and Kibbutz Kfar Aza, and heard testimonies from survivors of the massacre.
In a written statement issued after his visit he said he witnessed “scenes of calculated cruelty” at locations of the attacks.
“The attacks against innocent Israeli civilians on 7 October represent some of the most serious international crimes that shock the conscience of humanity, crimes which the ICC was established to address,” Khan said, adding that he and his prosecutors are working “to hold those responsible to account.”
He added that he is ready to engage with local prosecutors in line with the principle of complementarity – the ICC is a court of last resort set up to prosecute war crimes when local courts cannot or will not take action.
“I would be completely incompetent if I don’t check the instances of children being kidnapped from their beds and Holocaust survivors being taken into captivity,” Khan told Haaretz.
Khan also said that international crimes were likely committed. “These were not random murders. People were murdered because of their identity.”
Regarding the families who invited him, Khan said they “expect not just empathy, but action.”
I appreciate the visit and the remarks.
My apologies.
Yes, I read the article and do not dispute the facts raised or the carnage that those facts expose. The former is in great part a function of dealing with a deeply embedded enemy entirely dismissive of the the wellbeing of those it rules. The latter is a horror that speaks for itself.
As for my initial thoughts in general, see here.
Thank you.
I disagree
Yes. It may not be the answer you'd like or agree with, but I believe it does.
Human rights concerns and the plight of the Palestinians aside, I do not believe that the current response by Israel is conductive for combating terrorism. I think that a reassessment of the methods used and the siege tactics are in order for the purposes of combating terrorism.
I don't think deploying tactics that play to the hands of terrorists in the long run should be used for short-term gains.
Palestinian public opinion is a very important key in combating terrorism that Israeli strategy consistently ignores when they implement changes that the Palestinians interpret as collective punishment.
Alien826
No religious beliefs
Good question. I pondered a while over that wording. The question is, is it actually possible to avoid innocent deaths in all cases. The trivial answer is "yes", simply don't kill anyone, but not too useful IRL. One outstanding case that the police face all the time goes like this. A perp is running away from the police carrying a gun. He is running towards a group of bystanders. He will probably shoot some of them, so shoot him first, even though you run the risk of hitting the innocent people in the process. I guess that is a particular example of the "trolley problem" in philosophy.
In the particular case of Hamas/Gaza, does it apply? Will eliminating Hamas at the cost of innocent civilians actually cause less innocent deaths in the future? I'll leave that for the reader to contemplate.
Let me pose a question for you to 'contemplate.'
Remembering that Hamas violated the cease-fire on the morning of December 1st much as it callously shattered the truce on the morning of October 7th, will assenting to continued Hamas rule invite future acts of barbaric incitement.
Alien826
No religious beliefs
I think that Hamas will continue to be Hamas regardless. And it could be effectively impossible to eliminate them, as even if you killed all the leadership (unlikely as many are tucked away in other countries) and all current members (equally unlikely) then the idea of Hamas under the same name or a new one will persist. And one day the aggression will continue, maybe with some delay, but with fresh fuel to the fires of hatred.
So is it hopeless? It's certainly difficult. Let's see what you think of what is no more than an idea. This is all once the current fighting comes to an end.
It seems to me that getting to peace needs a couple of things that are currently missing. First is a concerted effort by other nations (like the USA, European nations and the surrounding Arab nations) that are dedicated to a peaceful solution, and don't give up when things don't immediately work out. They should not take sides, but work from the basis that both sides have merit and that the past must be put behind us.
Next, both sides need reasonable people to negotiate with. That means replacing both Hamas and the current leadership of Israel. Israel is easier, because I already know that all Israelis are not right wing theocrats (is that a word?), far from it, and an election could do it. What I'm betting on is that there is a core of Palestinians that truly want peace, given a fair compromise.
Israel should go to a defensive posture. Yes, that means putting up with some rockets, but at least only kill those that launch them, so far as that is possible. Then institute a program that benefits the Palestinians, in Gaza, Israel and the West Bank. Let them see that maybe things could not be so bad, even if Israel still exists.
Let time pass and let it work.
I haven't mentioned a two state solution. I may be crazy, but I picture one state, including current Israel, Gaza and the West Bank, with all inhabitants being citizens with truly equal rights.
"You may think I'm a dreamer ..."
Alien826
No religious beliefs
Sigh. Thanks for the thoughtful and well articulated response.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Then you're wrong. You're welcome to be so, I guess.