....what you should learn.
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Gaza was before the war the greatest open-air prison
- Thread starter Godobeyer
- Start date
And they know it too ;-)
EconGuy
Active Member
Even if I concede that Israel has questionable claims to the land it now occupies and even if I concede that Israel has at times unfairly oppressed Palestinians and occupied land in recent years it has questionable claim to, my problem with what happened on October 7th where Hamas Invaded Israel was the methods they employed.
There is a saying that "all is fair in love and war", but that's not really true. How you treat your enemies matters if you expect to ever make peace with them. In the case of Hamas there are videos, I've unfortunately seen (and I do my best to avoid stuff like this) showing a Hamas member on that day executing 2 young girls one of whom fell to her knees sobbing begging for her life as a bullet from the rifle of an emotionless invader tore though and exploded her head. The other callously shot in the back as she ran.
Dropping the question of the conduct of Hamas, ChatGPT 4.o responds:
"There is evidence indicating that during the October 7, 2023, Hamas attack, militants engaged in severe acts of violence, including beheadings and sexual violence. Various reports and investigations, including a UN report, found "reasonable grounds to believe" that Hamas committed acts of sexual violence and torture during the attack. Despite these findings, Hamas has denied these allegations. The evidence includes testimonies, video footage, and investigations by international bodies, which suggest that such atrocities did occur (PolitiFact) (The Media Line) (POLITICO)."
And that in and of itself is one thing. We cannot judge an entire group by the actions of a few who's actions might have been caught on camera. The larger question is how the populace and leadership responds. For example, the US tortured prisoners at Abu Grab, but US leadership and broadly the US population rebuked that kind of treatment and broadly agree that it's wrong. I'm not seeing the same kind of rebuke of the kinds of inhumane treatment of non-combatants and while I DO NOT support the unnecessarily killing of civilians, that has to be weighed against the danger that a nations own civilians face. Brutal, inhuman, merciless treatment isn't simply trying to achieve a military goal, but is trying to provoke a response by showing how little respect and dignity your invading forces are willing to give.
I'm sorry, there is no place for that behavior in the modern world. We need only look to the struggle of the indigenous people of South Africa who's struggles were every bit as difficult and while there were episodes of terrible violence during the struggles there, the level of inhumanity was no where near the scale of what Hamas and it's proxies have proven capable of.
Lastly, I think there is good evidence that Hamas as a political and military organization is using their own civilians and infrastructure (hospitals, schools etc.) as shields against attack measuring their value as deterrents against attack and their value as martyrs to their cause as dead civilians killed by Israeli bombs drives sympathy and support in the West that seems willing to overlook or rationalize the atrocities committed by Hamas and more broadly the, at least tepid support for these actions Hamas by every day Palestinians. It is a cynical approach to warfare, even asymmetric warfare, that has no place in the modern world. In the end, I think how you conduct your war matters. If you act like a brutal merciless savage and treat the lives of your enemies, especially non-combatants with zero regard for their lives and dignity, willing to employ immeasurable suffering and fear and your people and leadership are unwilling, even if just in appearance, to rebuke (believably) that kind of treatment, how do you ever expect to sit at a table with your enemy and find a path to peace? How are your actions not simply going to result in your enemy having the excuse to fight at the same level?
To be 100% clear, I can rebuke Israel's treatment and handling of the decades long conflict and oppression of people who call themselves Palestinians. I can question Israel's methods and believe that they bare some responsibility in what's happened and continues to happen, but I can, concurrently judge the response to as bad if not worse, and that is where I'm at.
There is a saying that "all is fair in love and war", but that's not really true. How you treat your enemies matters if you expect to ever make peace with them. In the case of Hamas there are videos, I've unfortunately seen (and I do my best to avoid stuff like this) showing a Hamas member on that day executing 2 young girls one of whom fell to her knees sobbing begging for her life as a bullet from the rifle of an emotionless invader tore though and exploded her head. The other callously shot in the back as she ran.
Dropping the question of the conduct of Hamas, ChatGPT 4.o responds:
"There is evidence indicating that during the October 7, 2023, Hamas attack, militants engaged in severe acts of violence, including beheadings and sexual violence. Various reports and investigations, including a UN report, found "reasonable grounds to believe" that Hamas committed acts of sexual violence and torture during the attack. Despite these findings, Hamas has denied these allegations. The evidence includes testimonies, video footage, and investigations by international bodies, which suggest that such atrocities did occur (PolitiFact) (The Media Line) (POLITICO)."
And that in and of itself is one thing. We cannot judge an entire group by the actions of a few who's actions might have been caught on camera. The larger question is how the populace and leadership responds. For example, the US tortured prisoners at Abu Grab, but US leadership and broadly the US population rebuked that kind of treatment and broadly agree that it's wrong. I'm not seeing the same kind of rebuke of the kinds of inhumane treatment of non-combatants and while I DO NOT support the unnecessarily killing of civilians, that has to be weighed against the danger that a nations own civilians face. Brutal, inhuman, merciless treatment isn't simply trying to achieve a military goal, but is trying to provoke a response by showing how little respect and dignity your invading forces are willing to give.
I'm sorry, there is no place for that behavior in the modern world. We need only look to the struggle of the indigenous people of South Africa who's struggles were every bit as difficult and while there were episodes of terrible violence during the struggles there, the level of inhumanity was no where near the scale of what Hamas and it's proxies have proven capable of.
Lastly, I think there is good evidence that Hamas as a political and military organization is using their own civilians and infrastructure (hospitals, schools etc.) as shields against attack measuring their value as deterrents against attack and their value as martyrs to their cause as dead civilians killed by Israeli bombs drives sympathy and support in the West that seems willing to overlook or rationalize the atrocities committed by Hamas and more broadly the, at least tepid support for these actions Hamas by every day Palestinians. It is a cynical approach to warfare, even asymmetric warfare, that has no place in the modern world. In the end, I think how you conduct your war matters. If you act like a brutal merciless savage and treat the lives of your enemies, especially non-combatants with zero regard for their lives and dignity, willing to employ immeasurable suffering and fear and your people and leadership are unwilling, even if just in appearance, to rebuke (believably) that kind of treatment, how do you ever expect to sit at a table with your enemy and find a path to peace? How are your actions not simply going to result in your enemy having the excuse to fight at the same level?
To be 100% clear, I can rebuke Israel's treatment and handling of the decades long conflict and oppression of people who call themselves Palestinians. I can question Israel's methods and believe that they bare some responsibility in what's happened and continues to happen, but I can, concurrently judge the response to as bad if not worse, and that is where I'm at.
Redneck Mystic
Active Member
I think I agree with everything you wrote.
Yesterday, someone asked me how I would have responded to the October 7, 2023, raid, which was my 81st birthday, I were running Israel? I said I would tell my country it’s time for us to step back an ponder what we have done to cause them to hate us so much, and I would not have reacted with my military, and I soon would not be running Israel.
I engaged in many online forum discussions about the Oct 7 raid and Israel’s response, I upset a lot of people who were all over Israel and giving Hamas a free pass. I said in Hamas’s charter is is mission to destroy Israel, and Hama’s Sinwar spent a lot of time in an Israel prison and he learned Hebrew and his analyzed Israel, and he concluded Hamas could not defeat Israel and America militarily, so he designed a raid that punched very last one of Israel’s buttons, for the purpose of baiting Israel and America to respond as they did and turn Isrel and America into pariah nations.
I said Hamas did not care what happened to Gaza civilians, and to the contrary, the more of them killed, maimed, displaced and started by Israel, the bett4er for Hamas and Islam, who view the slaughtered, maimed, displaces and starving Gazan' as martyrs in a holy war against the Great Satan America and it ally Israel. if Hamas cared about the people of Gaza, it would be offering to release its October 7 hostages for a permanent cease fire. Instead, Hamas offered its October 7 hostages for several thousand Hamas convicted criminals in Israel prisons.
I said the leaders of Hamas, Israel, President Joe Biden and the members of Congress who supplied Israel with the money and additional weapons it needed to do what it idd in Gaza all should the tired, convicted and hung for war crimes.
I also said the the Devil loves what Hamas, Israel and America are doing in. Gaza, and God as nothing to do with any of it.
I said the strife in Palestine dates back to Abraham, Issac and Israel in Jewish, Christian and Islam scriptures and religious fanatics in all three religions, and there won’t be peace in Palestine for so long as Israel is there, and it’s too bacd Americadidn’t offer the WWII European Jewish refuges safe harbor in America.
Audie
Veteran Member
What is " greatest"? N Korea has Gaza
beat in every metirc
Side note: escapees from n Korea can find
sanctuary. Nobody wants palestinians.
There are millions of Palestinains refugees around the world ,they kicked from their home, Israel is only country in world give their citizenship due religion(jewish).
Why should Palestinians left their own land to give it to Israel ?
Israel don't care about their own hostages they killed more than 70 Israeli hostages by airstrikes,they just slaying more innocents Palestinians as they can .
I know Western media can't show you the real reality of what happening there , but at least watch Aljazeera to see the other side opinion or situation.
This is not fighting with hamas , it's fighting with people of Palestine.
Audie
Veteran Member
You can speak from a moral high
ground because the land you stand
on has been passed down from the
original inhabitants?
Tell us where that is!!
We can never know if we inhabit a land that
wasn't gained by booting former occupants.
It's likely stolen.
But we can decry theft that's currently ongoing.
Israel stole land during & after its creation.
The perps & victims are still around, & the
conflict continues.
I argue that for the good of us all, we give
priority to what is more recent & compelling.
Audie
Veteran Member
Come now.
Name one place that hasn't been
taken by force, usually many times.
Otherwise re what you said, sure;
It's just the posturing of absolute
moral high ground that I was commenting on.
It's impossible to answer because
one would have to know all history.
Of course, I know that you're not using
this to justify anyone invading anyone else.
There is a moral high ground, but it's
complicated. Ukraine & Taiwan have it.
Russia & China don't.
The result Palestinians kicked from their land after they host Jews as refugees run from holocaust in Europe.
I will follow your idea .
So ,it's Native Americans want their land back, it's ok for Native Americans to kill any Americans come from Europe ?
The West unfortunately finished a racist regime in Europe "Nazi" Germany in 1945 and created other one in middle east 1948 Israel "zionist" .
If it's ok and normal.
So Russia should continous it's job by taken all Ukraine land ,maybe next few years won't find Ukraine on map. all will belong to Russia.
EconGuy
Active Member
The Jews purchased most if not all of the, then Swamp land, they lived on when the jews first settled in Palistine.
What you explain the millions of refugees of Palestinains around the world ?
Israel had destroyed home of Palestinians every where .
They are not normal regime as you see by your bias media.
‘If I Don’t Steal [Your Home] Someone Else Will’ Israeli Settler Justifies Forcible Takeover
Audie
Veteran Member
I didn't remotely say it's ok. So dont try to
pull that trick on me.
And you ducked saying anything about the stolen
land you inhabit.
Or is it OK for you but not so fine ifn themJews do it?
I don't have problem with it's was historical belong to Jews or not.
because everyone claims who lived there first.
My problem with your idea that maybe biased ,by claim the land,
so who claim land had right to kill civilians, kick them from there land ,bring his tribes take over that land ,and do whatever "he" want the residents to push them out of that land ?
until now about 40 thousands Palestinians civilians killed because of this idea.
Israelis leader don't consider Palestinians as human beings .
due to their evil religious teaching .
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Audie
Veteran Member
No, your prob., such as it is, is that you
make things up and call them my ideas.
That's two posts in a row with you
doing that.
I'm not interested in any more of it;
S.V.P. ne reponds plus.
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Audie
Veteran Member
No prob, you don't have the capacity to do that.Excuse moi, si je te derangé
I just don't want to respond to fanciful things wrongly
attributed to me.