Geert Wilders not guilty

[YmirGF]

I suppose people will be prosecuted for dissing Islam.

When I first read this sentence, I read it as "discussing Islam" and mentally added "in anything but a positive light." Oddly that is exactly what the OIC has proposed on the floor of the U.N. (Defamation of religions and the United Nations)

 

[Yerda]

So we aren't supposed to criticize ethnic groups, eh?

I don't think there is any insight to be gained from criticism at the level of ethnicity and there are many dangers. You disagree?

 

[Yerda]

It was criticism of a culture (which is a collection of commonly shared practices, behaviors and attitudes), not of a race (which, again, which is something completely different).

I'm sure you think you keep repeating this for a reason.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think there is any insight to be gained from criticism at the level of ethnicity and there are many dangers. You disagree?

Not entirely.
I'd prefer to criticize an aspect of ethnicity, instead of the entire group.
The distinction can be hard to accurately convey though.

 

[Yerda]

The distinction can be hard to accurately convey though.

This is indubitably clear. :foot:

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm sure you think you keep repeating this for a reason.

Because people seem to toss accusations of racism around so easily and recklessly that the word losses it's weight and meaning, such as the boy who cried wolf.

When attitudes stemming from cultural influence lead to behavior that's abusive or criminal, its root cause needs to be acknowledged and addressed.

 

[YmirGF]

Because people seem to toss accusations of racism around so easily and recklessly that the word losses it's weight and meaning, such as the boy who cried wolf.

When attitudes stemming from cultural influence lead to behavior that's abusive or criminal, its root cause needs to be acknowledged and addressed.

This feature of "modern" dialogue is something I find problematic. I find it deeply insulting to the person it is aimed at and also deeply insulting to real victims of racism and bigotry. It's used freely enough for people who don't like Lady Gaga to be labeled as bigots and racists for not liking her relatively low brow "art form". What is amusing is that people think that Islam is "just another religion". It isn't. Islam is primarily a political force with religious underpinnings. What is genuinely troubling about Islam is that it isn't just the religious/dogmatic underpinnings, but it is because all too many Muslims see Islam as a supreme religious force empowered by god almighty, from which there will be no further guidance before Judgment day. What is truly bizarre is that we are just supposed to roll over and follow their divinely inspired "leadership".

 

[AbdulMuhd]

This feature of "modern" dialogue is something I find problematic. I find it deeply insulting to the person it is aimed at and also deeply insulting to real victims of racism and bigotry. It's used freely enough for people who don't like Lady Gaga to be labeled as bigots and racists for not liking her relatively low brow "art form". What is amusing is that people think that Islam is "just another religion". It isn't. Islam is primarily a political force with religious underpinnings. What is genuinely troubling about Islam is that it isn't just the religious/dogmatic underpinnings, but it is because all too many Muslims see Islam as a supreme religious force empowered by god almighty, from which there will be no further guidance before Judgment day. What is truly bizarre is that we are just supposed to roll over and follow their divinely inspired "leadership".

YmirGF, What you have said is profound. That is why it is necessary for some of us to go the origins of human belief, be it Judaism, or Islam, or Hinduism, or Taoism or Sharmainsm. Only then can we begin to see how human thought and ethics evolved and why. Then we will be able to recognise the folklore, from the myths and from the miracles that have been handed down by our ancestors. Then we may appreciate the true perspective of our creation.

 

[Starsoul]

No, actually, I wasn't. What I was meaning is that Muhammad was the one who neatly divided the world between Muslims and non-Muslims. You and I had nothing, whatsoever, to do with it. You are either part of the "rightly guided" or you are not.

Although I have a weakness for Scottish Shortbread, Walkers to be precise, the Danes do make great cookies.

I guess that is where I am different. If I were to ever leave my island paradise, perish the thought, my first task upon entering a new homeland would be to get into the society and become a part of it. I wouldn't expect people to help me out all that much. I'd learn the language, adopt the customs... etc... maybe I'm just stupid.

Now that I am not so sure of. I come from a city with a vibrant East Indian and Asian community. It is so vibrant that those communities are largely replacing the former community. I guess what I am saying is I now know how the original inhabitants of this land must feel.

Not really. All you need to is have reasonable limits on immigration so as to not overload the system.

Um no, that's not what I was meaning. I was meaning it in general. Why should we accommodate people from other cultures? Why can't they just work at fitting in? For example, in my former hometown, the University of British Columbia wanted to build a hospice on a piece of land next to a high rise. The residents of the high rise are almost totally new Canadians and came from China and Hong Kong. They strongly objected to the placement of the hospice next to their building as they said it would bring them bad luck. Well.... it certainly brought them bad press, I'll say that. As a consolation, the local established Chinese associations shrilly denounced their objections as not being representative of Chinese sentiments as a whole, but were somewhat fanciful adherents of 5000 year old superstitions. The question the University was seriously pondering is if they should buckle to the objections. Fortunately sanity prevailed and the hospice is going to be built. Although the matter is "settled" I wouldn't be surprised if these relatively wealthy new immigrants decided to sue the developers for a host of maladies and personal trauma incurred.

I wish I could respond to this point frankly, but if I did, it would get me into trouble with the Moderators.

Reading up post upon post of yours, since you seem never to get tired of hateful bigotry against the muslims, why don't you open a hate anti-muslim forum of your own and bang your loose fists over there? 'cause the way you say you hold yourself back from actually exposing muslims, makes it look like as if you're going to have a heart attack or would just plain pass out, if the moderators didn't let you release your hate towards them.

Why contain yourself so much, why not go ahead with the 'mission ' of your life , and join the UN army and physically go kill them to save the world from them as they are being killed in several countries already. Thank me later for the idea, but it sure would help to not see you form a foam on your mouth repeatedly over muslims/islam and save some of us from the pain of going through your boiling hatred, full of nonsense.

 

[Kathryn]

Some people shore do luv to pontificate.

 

[YmirGF]

Reading up post upon post of yours, since you seem never to get tired of hateful bigotry against the muslims, why don't you open a hate anti-muslim forum of your own and bang your loose fists over there? 'cause the way you say you hold yourself back from actually exposing muslims, makes it look like as if you're going to have a heart attack or would just plain pass out, if the moderators didn't let you release your hate towards them.

Oy vey. Let's get something straight, ok? I DO NOT HATE MUSLIMS. I do not care enough about Islam to hate Islam or Muslims. Got that? Good. Sorry to burst your bubble. Oddly, the more I learn about Islam, the less I like what I see.

Why contain yourself so much, why not go ahead with the 'mission ' of your life , and join the UN army and physically go kill them to save the world from them as they are being killed in several countries already. Thank me later for the idea, but it sure would help to not see you form a foam on your mouth repeatedly over muslims/islam and save some of us from the pain of going through your boiling hatred, full of nonsense.

Um, you could simply put me on ignore. "God" knows I have been sorely tempted to use that RF feature of some amusing posters. If you want my honest opinion, you are exasperated because you cannot easily defeat my statements. That must be annoying, I'll admit.

 

[Starsoul]

Lol you are your own biggest defeat, one of those who like spitting in the sky: muslims usually don't aspire to engage with this mindless stink of a banter with somebody who thinks its all a pinnacle of intellectualism to spit at islam with an obvious ignoramous arrogance; guess where it all comes back? right at your own face. : )

And yeah sure, the way these discussions morph into, here in these forums these days makes it look like that if you and the likes of yours did not have the opportunity to slander islam and bicker about muslims every other day, you'd really have no other valuable purpose to serve in your lives. Some of the christians do it, All athiests do it, all panentheists do it, Polytheists & Pagans do it, UUs do it, Agnostics do it, some Jews do it , wiccans do it, etc and etc do it, name me one belief out of all these here, or more who do not seem to have a holier purpose other than to try to malign and try smear the image of muslims as if enough hasn't already been done.

And thanks, but I don't consider indulging in petty debates ( read: lowly attempts at slandering other people's beliefs and practices) as a mark of pride to decorate on my intellectual capabilities, but heartiest congratulations to you, you are quite ahead in that race, and I wouldn't want to spoil for you, your only sense & source of happiness : )

Take my post as a token of appreciation to your 'valuable' efforts.

 

[sandandfoam]

I haven't altered my position - just clarified it. For those who seem determined to read into it.

For the average, reasonable person, this really shouldn't be necessary.

Rubbish.

 

[sandandfoam]

So when you're suddenly surrounded by a crowd of small, dark haired and dark eyed clamoring children in a crowded market place in Europe, you don't generalize that they're probably Roma children trying to pick your pocket?

Disgusting.

 

[sandandfoam]

It was criticism of a culture (which is a collection of commonly shared practices, behaviors and attitudes), not of a race (which, again, which is something completely different).

Roma and Travellers are ethnic groups.

 

[sandandfoam]

So we aren't supposed to criticize ethnic groups, eh? Where will that lead?

To a world where people aren't victimized on the basis of their ethnicity. A better world.

 

[sandandfoam]

Some people shore do luv to pontificate.

Some love to hear jokes. Your point?

 

[Revoltingest]

To a world where people aren't victimized on the basis of their ethnicity. A better world.

Nuthin personal here, but that's a pollyanna attitude. I'd wager that if you had your way, & criticism were stifled, that persecution & victimization would be
tolerated for fear of even discussing it. Such a restrictive environment is related to increasing governmental attempts to prosecute people for mere insults.
If one actually believes that all groups have not differences, & ignore that inner voice which warns of trouble, then the real world will be a punishing place.
What is one to do? Call groups on their misdeeds, but be tolerant, open minded & generous when appropriate.

 

[sandandfoam]

Nuthin personal here, but that's a pollyanna attitude. I'd wager that if you had your way, & criticism were stifled, that persecution & victimization would be
tolerated for fear of even discussing it. Such a restrictive environment is related to increasing governmental attempts to prosecute people for mere insults.

Nothing personal taken
But to your point - I believe that there is something paranoid in American culture about having the freedom to express any view no matter how vile.
I imagine/am pretty certain, it would be illegal to broadcast the type of views expressed by Kathryn in this thread in mine and most European countries. I think we're the better for it.

 

[Revoltingest]

I believe that there is something paranoid in American culture about having the freedom to express any view no matter how vile.

I'd say it's the opposite of paranoia to foster open expression of unpopular thoughts.

I imagine/am pretty certain, it would be illegal to broadcast the type of views expressed by Kathryn in this thread in mine and most European countries. I think we're the better for it.

You can keep your meddling nanny states over there then.
Freedom of speech can be messy & offensive, but for us it beats having some government prosecutor trolling the airwaves for prey.